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Where is Jahlil Okafor?

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Re: Where is Jahlil Okafor? 

Post#861 » by kriss73 » Sun Dec 4, 2016 2:16 pm

76ciology wrote:
kriss73 wrote:On the flip side, these are the fourth more utilized lineups this season:

Image

Everyone can draw their own conclusions.

I'm not an Okafor hater (not yet) but the guy has A TON to work to became a starting C in this League.
Furthermore, not having a perimetral game, he has to sustain unreal FG% to be an efficent offensive player.


Are you referring to DRtg?


Yeah. These numbers are difficult to justify.
On offense my issue is that he's not so versatile to hide a bad night in terms of FG%.
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Re: Where is Jahlil Okafor? 

Post#862 » by LloydFree » Sun Dec 4, 2016 2:17 pm

kriss73 wrote:On the flip side, these are the fourth more utilized lineups this season:

Image

Everyone can draw their own conclusions.

I'm not an Okafor hater (not yet) but the guy has A TON to work to became a starting C in this League.
Furthermore, not having a perimetral game, he has to sustain unreal FG% to be an efficent offensive player.


The conclusion I get from that graphic: Saric, Covington, Henderson and Rodriguez are historically bad teammates... some of the time.
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Re: Where is Jahlil Okafor? 

Post#863 » by 76ciology » Sun Dec 4, 2016 2:52 pm

kriss73 wrote:
76ciology wrote:
kriss73 wrote:On the flip side, these are the fourth more utilized lineups this season:

Image

Everyone can draw their own conclusions.

I'm not an Okafor hater (not yet) but the guy has A TON to work to became a starting C in this League.
Furthermore, not having a perimetral game, he has to sustain unreal FG% to be an efficent offensive player.


Are you referring to DRtg?


Yeah. These numbers are difficult to justify.
On offense my issue is that he's not so versatile to hide a bad night in terms of FG%.


KP: 109DRTG
Okafor: 110 DRTG
KAT: 111.5 DRTG (93.7 DRTG off court)

All three guys' team play best on D when they are off the floor.

Don't get me wrong, there's definitely some big improvements on D that needs to get done. But let's not discount the fact that Noel and Embiid are just historically great defensive center rookies and most young bigs takes time to develop their defensive impact.
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Re: Where is Jahlil Okafor? 

Post#864 » by kriss73 » Sun Dec 4, 2016 3:11 pm

76ciology wrote:
KP: 109DRTG
Okafor: 110 DRTG
KAT: 111.5 DRTG (93.7 DRTG off court)

All three guys' team play best on D when they are off the floor.

Don't get me wrong, there's definitely some big improvements on D that needs to get done. But let's not discount the fact that Noel and Embiid are just historically great defensive center rookies and most young bigs takes time to develop their defensive impact.


Don't get me wrong too, I'm not throwing Okafor under the bus. The collateral effect of the Process is that we have no patience with rookies.
But point is that KP and Towns bring a lot of thing on the table when we look at their offense so a team is legitimated to try building around them, waiting their future improvements on defense.
Or trying to hide their flaws (see Dieng)

So we went to Jah. I can see only to happy endings:
- he improves a lot on defense (awareness and effort in primis)
- he expands his range and/or learn to play the p&r.

If neither of those happen, he's final output will be a Kanter-light player.
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Re: Where is Jahlil Okafor? 

Post#865 » by 76ciology » Sun Dec 4, 2016 3:18 pm

76ciology wrote:
76ciology wrote:
76ciology wrote:To be fair, no one even our quickest guards were able to stay in front of IT. Even Saric couldn't stop IT on that game tying lay-up.





DFGA
Season: 10.8
Against Celtics: 20 (7 3PT DFGA; -7.6DFG% <6ft.)

He was actually quite mobile in challenging shots this game.


Not a foul to me..

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Re: Where is Jahlil Okafor? 

Post#866 » by 76ciology » Sun Dec 4, 2016 3:19 pm

kriss73 wrote:
76ciology wrote:
KP: 109DRTG
Okafor: 110 DRTG
KAT: 111.5 DRTG (93.7 DRTG off court)

All three guys' team play best on D when they are off the floor.

Don't get me wrong, there's definitely some big improvements on D that needs to get done. But let's not discount the fact that Noel and Embiid are just historically great defensive center rookies and most young bigs takes time to develop their defensive impact.


Don't get me wrong too, I'm not throwing Okafor under the bus. The collateral effect of the Process is that we have no patience with rookies.
But point is that KP and Towns bring a lot of thing on the table when we look at their offense so a team is legitimated to try building around them, waiting their future improvements on defense.
Or trying to hide their flaws (see Dieng)

So we went to Jah. I can see only to happy endings:
- he improves a lot on defense (awareness and effort in primis)
- he expands his range and/or learn to play the p&r.

If neither of those happen, he's final output will be a Kanter-light player.


Yup. Need to expand range and be more active in grabbing boards.
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Re: Where is Jahlil Okafor? 

Post#867 » by Ericb5 » Sun Dec 4, 2016 4:41 pm

kriss73 wrote:
76ciology wrote:
KP: 109DRTG
Okafor: 110 DRTG
KAT: 111.5 DRTG (93.7 DRTG off court)

All three guys' team play best on D when they are off the floor.

Don't get me wrong, there's definitely some big improvements on D that needs to get done. But let's not discount the fact that Noel and Embiid are just historically great defensive center rookies and most young bigs takes time to develop their defensive impact.


Don't get me wrong too, I'm not throwing Okafor under the bus. The collateral effect of the Process is that we have no patience with rookies.
But point is that KP and Towns bring a lot of thing on the table when we look at their offense so a team is legitimated to try building around them, waiting their future improvements on defense.
Or trying to hide their flaws (see Dieng)

So we went to Jah. I can see only to happy endings:
- he improves a lot on defense (awareness and effort in primis)
- he expands his range and/or learn to play the p&r.

If neither of those happen, he's final output will be a Kanter-light player.


Do you ever read people decrying the horrible defense of KP and Towns? Me either.

The Okafor stuff has crossed the hater threshold. I think that I lot of the people who don't like him on this board are offended that there are a lot of people that do, so childishly they need to hammer every negative thing like a woman trying to win an argument.

He has a good game and nobody says anything. He shows improvements in certain areas and they are ignored. Meanwhile the golden children like KP and Towns, who are admittedly better players, have their weaknesses totally ignored.

At the same time, all three of them are 21 or 20 years old, and are wet cement in terms of the players that they will be at 25. They are still developing their skills.

I doubt that their are vocal contingents on the Knicks and Twolves boards that lament every game how bad defensively KP and Towns are.




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Re: Where is Jahlil Okafor? 

Post#868 » by kriss73 » Sun Dec 4, 2016 5:13 pm

It's not hate in my case, it's matter to draw a line and to see where Jah is today compared to his first year and to the future:


Jah 2015-2016: ORTG 92 - DRTG 108.7
Jah 2016-2017: ORTG 92.9 - DRTG 110.1

Porz 2015-2016: ORTG 103.9 - DRTG 104
Porz 2016-2017: ORTG 106.4 - DRTG 109

Towns 2015-2016: ORTG 106 - DRTG 108.1
Towns 2016-2017: ORTG 107.5 - DRTG 111.5

Now, by numbers, Jah is as bad as Porz or Towns on the difensive side.
But on offense, he is a couple of tiers under the top C of his draft.

To become an impact player, he has to improve his ORTG or to lower his DRTG.
I think you can build a system to hide Okafor on defense, but you dont' build a system on a 93 ORTG player.
You build such a system on 105+ ORTG players, like Porz or Towns.
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Re: Where is Jahlil Okafor? 

Post#869 » by spikeslovechild » Sun Dec 4, 2016 5:53 pm

Foshan wrote:yeah i just watched the BOS game, little late, and was expecting just awful-okafor, sure there were some annoying moments, but I didn't think he played bad.


I thought he played well in both games.

I'm still frustrated with some things inregards to the offense. 9 attempts.
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Re: Where is Jahlil Okafor? 

Post#870 » by spikeslovechild » Sun Dec 4, 2016 6:01 pm

76ciology wrote:
76ciology wrote:
PhilasFinest wrote:Okafor is tough to watch so far this year.... He is either struggling to get into game shape or has lost a ton of confidence.

Sure he has always been frustrating on defense and on the glass, but at least at times last season you were wowed for stretches where he seemed to be un-guardable on offense. I haven't really seen that so far this season. He seems to rush & force his possessions and everything seems to be a 1 handed floater. He was improving his range prior to injury, and has shown little to none of that.


The team is trying to let him NOT be a ball stopper and instead be PART OF THE OFFENSE.

Once he learn that, he'll have better positive on court offense and higher TS%. It's just tough when you don't have a jumper, that's why you see most modern bigs being able to develop a jumper. And tonight was an example of it.


last 4 games
27.1mpg
15ppg
63.6FG%
7.8rpg
1bpg

He might be getting back his groove on offense


I disagree vehemently.

I watched the last four games in it's entirety and while he's certainly played better on offense that isn't a result of better looks. Thats a result of him playing better. Take last game for example. 9 attempts. Rewatch each of them they weren't easy looks. He can get those looks pretty much anytime he wants.

So why isn't he? Why aren't we running things through him when Embiid is out. Look he is never going to be the type of player whose valuable without the ball. At best I hope he holds his own on defense and the boards. He needs to get the ball on the block early and often to be an effective player. I don't see it happening this year and to be honest if this is how he is going to be used moving forward I don;t really see a reason for him to be here.
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Re: Where is Jahlil Okafor? 

Post#871 » by rzzzzz » Sun Dec 4, 2016 11:09 pm

so where are the stats of Jah and Jo together? it looked like they more than held their own, even when they weren't exactly getting much help from the back court. imagine Simmons distributing!
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Re: Where is Jahlil Okafor? 

Post#872 » by TeamHigh » Mon Dec 5, 2016 2:21 am

Ericb5 wrote:Do you ever read people decrying the horrible defense of KP and Towns? Me either.

The Okafor stuff has crossed the hater threshold. I think that I lot of the people who don't like him on this board are offended that there are a lot of people that do, so childishly they need to hammer every negative thing like a woman trying to win an argument.

He has a good game and nobody says anything. He shows improvements in certain areas and they are ignored. Meanwhile the golden children like KP and Towns, who are admittedly better players, have their weaknesses totally ignored.

At the same time, all three of them are 21 or 20 years old, and are wet cement in terms of the players that they will be at 25. They are still developing their skills.

I doubt that their are vocal contingents on the Knicks and Twolves boards that lament every game how bad defensively KP and Towns are.

That's the point. They're admittedly much better players.

Do you see Rockets fans complaining about Harden's defense? Do you see Warriors fans complaining about how they need to hide Curry on defense? No, because they're much better players that can carry an entire offense.

If Jahlil was that kind of offensive player, no one would complain about his defense either. But an 92 ORtg shows that he's a very below average 5 on 5 player right now.

Your mistake right now is simply assuming that people are just "hating" for the sake of hating. No, they're hating because they want to root for promising players and Okafor is running out of time to show that he can become a promising above-average player in the NBA. Look how quickly everyone was willing to fall in love with Embiid. They're not 'haters', they're just desperate to find people to root for after four seasons of being awful.

Saying "he's only 20 years old" ultimately is meaningless because every bad player was also 20 years old at some point.
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Re: Where is Jahlil Okafor? 

Post#873 » by CoreyGallagher » Mon Dec 5, 2016 2:34 am

rzzzzz wrote:so where are the stats of Jah and Jo together? it looked like they more than held their own, even when they weren't exactly getting much help from the back court. imagine Simmons distributing!

15 minutes total this season. 30 possessions. 113.8 ORtg, 103.4 DRtg. Okafor has shot 4-4, Embiid 7-8.
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Re: Where is Jahlil Okafor? 

Post#874 » by Foshan » Mon Dec 5, 2016 3:01 am

CoreyGallagher wrote:
rzzzzz wrote:so where are the stats of Jah and Jo together? it looked like they more than held their own, even when they weren't exactly getting much help from the back court. imagine Simmons distributing!

15 minutes total this season. 30 possessions. 113.8 ORtg, 103.4 DRtg. Okafor has shot 4-4, Embiid 7-8.

wow, if we multiply that out per 36 that would be epic! :D

Actually... heck I'd be totally fine trying that for a game. Give every minute that Embiid is on the court with Okafor. Let Ersan and Dario play with Holmes in the middle. Just one game. See how it goes.
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Re: Where is Jahlil Okafor? 

Post#875 » by 76ciology » Mon Dec 5, 2016 3:24 am

Foshan wrote:
CoreyGallagher wrote:
rzzzzz wrote:so where are the stats of Jah and Jo together? it looked like they more than held their own, even when they weren't exactly getting much help from the back court. imagine Simmons distributing!

15 minutes total this season. 30 possessions. 113.8 ORtg, 103.4 DRtg. Okafor has shot 4-4, Embiid 7-8.

wow, if we multiply that out per 36 that would be epic! :D

Actually... heck I'd be totally fine trying that for a game. Give every minute that Embiid is on the court with Okafor. Let Ersan and Dario play with Holmes in the middle. Just one game. See how it goes.


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Re: Where is Jahlil Okafor? 

Post#876 » by 76ciology » Mon Dec 5, 2016 3:30 am

spikeslovechild wrote:
76ciology wrote:
76ciology wrote:
The team is trying to let him NOT be a ball stopper and instead be PART OF THE OFFENSE.

Once he learn that, he'll have better positive on court offense and higher TS%. It's just tough when you don't have a jumper, that's why you see most modern bigs being able to develop a jumper. And tonight was an example of it.


last 4 games
27.1mpg
15ppg
63.6FG%
7.8rpg
1bpg

He might be getting back his groove on offense


I disagree vehemently.

I watched the last four games in it's entirety and while he's certainly played better on offense that isn't a result of better looks. Thats a result of him playing better. Take last game for example. 9 attempts. Rewatch each of them they weren't easy looks. He can get those looks pretty much anytime he wants.

So why isn't he? Why aren't we running things through him when Embiid is out. Look he is never going to be the type of player whose valuable without the ball. At best I hope he holds his own on defense and the boards. He needs to get the ball on the block early and often to be an effective player. I don't see it happening this year and to be honest if this is how he is going to be used moving forward I don;t really see a reason for him to be here.


Perception issue.

You don't see him being valuable off ball, ever. The team thinks he can be valuable off ball by being a screener, roller, passer and eventually shooter.

The team is correcting his game while it's early. Like I said, there are some improvements. By being in the flow of the offense, he doesn't force things that leads to high TO rate and low PPP, while he can shoot at a better % and provide positive impact on offense.
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Re: Where is Jahlil Okafor? 

Post#877 » by Sixerscan » Mon Dec 5, 2016 3:55 am

The sooner people stop comparing Okafor to Towns and Porzingis the sooner it will stop seeming like people are "hating" on him.
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Re: Where is Jahlil Okafor? 

Post#878 » by phifans » Mon Dec 5, 2016 4:05 am

Sixerscan wrote:The sooner people stop comparing Okafor to Towns and Porzingis the sooner it will stop seeming like people are "hating" on him.


Who has actually compare Okafor to Towns and Porz ? They just happen to point out that their defense seems as bad as Okafor statistically and they admit both are better than Okafor overally. Comon if nobody mention these three guys together anymore would you promise you will stop trash Okafor no matter how he plays ?
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Re: Where is Jahlil Okafor? 

Post#879 » by CoreyGallagher » Mon Dec 5, 2016 4:09 am

Sixerscan wrote:The sooner people stop comparing Okafor to Towns and Porzingis the sooner it will stop seeming like people are "hating" on him.

They've only really been compared, sort of, on this page, though.
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Re: Where is Jahlil Okafor? 

Post#880 » by Sixerscan » Mon Dec 5, 2016 4:15 am

Sixerscan wrote:This thread is like an alternate universe sometimes.

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