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2016-2017 College Basketball / '17 NBA Draft Thread IV

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Re: 2016-2017 College Basketball / '17 NBA Draft Thread IV 

Post#881 » by Unbreakable99 » Sat Jun 10, 2017 11:35 pm

Some good tidbits from Seth Davis. I'm going to pick out a few from his list and post what he said about some prospects we talk about.

https://sethsdrafthouse.com/finch-returns-to-dish-on-nba-prospects-fa57b7c494ef
Lonzo Ball, 6’6” freshman guard, UCLA
“I couldn’t care less about the dad. This isn’t Little League. Everybody loves playing with players who get them the ball where they like it and control the pace of the game. He’s stronger than people give him credit for. I’m not really sure how he’s going to get a pullup jumper off the dribble. The only way he can get that jumper off is with a stepback. Obviously, he’s a really good passer. What makes him so good is his mind. If he’s the best player on your team, you’re in trouble, but if he’s the second or third best, you can win big with him. He’s going to have a hard time guarding point guards, but his defensive instincts off the ball are unbelievable.”

Jordan Bell, 6’8” junior forward, Oregon
“He’s one of my favorite players in the draft. He could be a switch monster because of his ability to defend multiple positions. He’s probably a better shooter than we saw at Oregon. He’s a hot name. He’s undersized four, but he’s just such a ridiculous athlete.”


Markelle Fultz, 6’4” freshman point guard, Washington
“I’d take him number one. His main weakness is defense, but he has some ability to play defense when there’s something at stake. He needs to be around a winning culture to get the best out of him. The most complete player in the draft. I don’t like that he cruises sometimes. He’s almost like Daryl Strawberry. Is he loafing or is he just that smooth? I don’t know that winning has ever been important to him. I’ve talked to friends who recruited him, and they said even when they watched him in open gyms or playing AAU, his team hardly ever won. That scares the crap out of me.”

Jawun Evans, 6’0” sophomore point guard, Oklahoma State
“Love him. He’s a great scorer, great ballhandler. You wonder if he has enough real size to be a point guard in the NBA, although he measured well at the combine. I’m not sure he’s athletic enough to pull that off. Competitive, sees the whole floor. He can make every pass from everywhere on the floor. Great attitude. Early in the year, Brad Underwood was getting on his ass, and he never let it bother him. He’s not an elite athlete. He’ll get picked 45 to 60.”


De’Aaron Fox, 6’3” freshman point guard, Kentucky
“My main concern is his size and strength, but I think he has a frame he can build on. His shot is not as broken as people make it out to be. You’re not talking Mudiay or Elfried Payton broke. He’s great at getting people involved. I didn’t like that he never got off the ball in transition, but that’s what Calipari wanted. He just puts so much pressure on the defense. It will be easy for him to polish that jump shot. His release point is too tight to his face, so instead of shooting it, he flings it. That’s easy to correct with repetition.”

Harry Giles, 6’10” freshman forward, Duke
“Which Harry are you getting? Are you getting pre-knee injuries or the one we saw at Duke? At the end of the day, it comes down to your medical staff. He has great size for an NBA power forward. I’d say mid to late first round. I wouldn’t touch him. He’s too big a gamble. I saw him at a workout and it looks like his legs are getting better. Until he lands on his left leg, I don’t know what to tell you. He was cleared medically at Duke. He just couldn’t get over the injuries mentally. Has there ever been a case where a guy blew out his knee twice before being drafted? Leon Powe, maybe? He would be a top five pick if he didn’t get hurt.”


Jonathan Isaac, 6’10” freshman forward, Florida State
“Great athlete. Can guard multiple positions. Needs to get stronger, but can put it on the floor and stroke it. He works really hard on defense, but offensively it doesn’t seem important to him to put points on the board. There were times his team needed him to be the guy to put points on the board, but he deferred a little too much. Late game situations, he’ll get nervous. He’ll get mauled at first because he’s so thin, so he’s going to have to be able to step out and make shots. ”


Frank Jackson, 6’3” freshman point guard, Duke
“Big question is his foot. He was a little too hell-bent on scoring and putting points on the board. You want to see if he can make good decisions on a consistent basis and get teammates involved. He had a great end of the year, but early on he was very up and down. Someone must have promised him he would go in the first round, but then he had this foot injury. He’s not a point guard in any way, shape or form. I don’t think he’s a great defender. He can make shots, but he’s an undersized for a combo. Should have stayed in school.”

Josh Jackson, 6’8” freshman forward, Kansas
“He’s my favorite player in this draft. As gifted a scorer as he is, I think he has a lot of untapped potential in that area. The off-court stuff is definitely a concern. You’re talking about two incidents in one year. Is that going to be a lingering issue? You don’t have to run plays for him. I think one day he could be a Jimmy Butler type guy. He has shooting deficiencies, but they went in at Kansas. I don’t know how they went in, but they did. He plays with a chip on his shoulder. If he’s able to shoot, he’ll be a Grant Hill or an Iguodala. If he doesn’t, he’ll be like Corey Brewer, which is still pretty good.”


Donovan Mitchell, 6’2” sophomore guard, Louisville
“Absolutely love him. His athleticism and wing span are intriguing. He can cover a lot of the floor. If he can get a consistent jump shot I think he has the chance. High character young man, strong calves and lower body. Improving three-point shooter. I think he can be a lottery pick. Didn’t measure well height-wise, but he has a 6’10” wing span so it doesn’t matter.”

Malik Monk, 6’3” freshman guard, Kentucky
“He’s really thin. I don’t see him being a guy who can carry a team. He’s more like a first guy off the bench and a bucket getter. He’s good athletically. He needs to get stronger. I’ve heard he’s not exactly a gym rat. When he gets going, forget it. Short arms, but a big-time athlete. Really fast, can really jump. He had some 1 for 11 nights. What’s he going to do if he’s not making shots?”


Dennis Smith, 6’2” freshman point guard, N.C. State
“Really gifted at getting his shot off. Needs to improve his consistency on the jump shot. I want to see how committed he can be at the defensive end. He has all the physical tools to succeed, but can he trust his teammates? He can fall asleep on defense. He’s a Derrick Rose-type athlete. He needs to go to the right team. He’s a guy that gets you fired. He quit on his team in some of the games I was at. I’m not a fan of his body language. I’d be scared if he was staring me in the face and I felt I had to take him.”


Jayson Tatum, 6’8” freshman forward, Duke
“Love him love him love him. He’s the next Carmelo Anthony. Just an elite scorer. I wonder how he’ll be as defenders jam him up. I’m not sure he has the foot speed to get around those guys. He has a good midrange game but I’m not sold on his three-point shot. His challenges will be athletically and defensively. He would never just drive down the land and punch it on people. I hear he just loves to play, loves being in the gym. Biggest thing with him is just physical toughness.”

Sindarius Thornwell, 6’5” senior guard, South Carolina
“He’s a tough competitor. Can knock down the three point shot. I’m just not sure he has the size and athleticism to be an NBA player. I don’t know if he has the lateral quickness and elusiveness off the dribble to score in the NBA. He’s a pit bull. He was one of the best interviews we did. I could talk to that dude and have beers with him all night. He’s not an above the rim guy. I watched him at a workout, he didn’t make any shots.”
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Re: 2016-2017 College Basketball / '17 NBA Draft Thread IV 

Post#882 » by Lovetron Joe » Sun Jun 11, 2017 12:30 am

That was a good read, thanks for sharing. If Tatum is the next Melo and Jackson is his favorite player in the draft, who is Jackson? MJ?
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Re: 2016-2017 College Basketball / '17 NBA Draft Thread IV 

Post#883 » by LloydFree » Sun Jun 11, 2017 1:31 am

Unbreakable99 wrote:Some good tidbits from Seth Davis. I'm going to pick out a few from his list and post what he said about some prospects we talk about.

https://sethsdrafthouse.com/finch-returns-to-dish-on-nba-prospects-fa57b7c494ef

Markelle Fultz, 6’4” freshman point guard, Washington
“I’d take him number one. His main weakness is defense, but he has some ability to play defense when there’s something at stake. He needs to be around a winning culture to get the best out of him. The most complete player in the draft. I don’t like that he cruises sometimes. He’s almost like Daryl Strawberry. Is he loafing or is he just that smooth? I don’t know that winning has ever been important to him. I’ve talked to friends who recruited him, and they said even when they watched him in open gyms or playing AAU, his team hardly ever won. That scares the crap out of me.”


Lonzo Ball, 6’6” freshman guard, UCLA
“I couldn’t care less about the dad. This isn’t Little League. Everybody loves playing with players who get them the ball where they like it and control the pace of the game. He’s stronger than people give him credit for. I’m not really sure how he’s going to get a pullup jumper off the dribble. The only way he can get that jumper off is with a stepback. Obviously, he’s a really good passer. What makes him so good is his mind. If he’s the best player on your team, you’re in trouble, but if he’s the second or third best, you can win big with him. He’s going to have a hard time guarding point guards, but his defensive instincts off the ball are unbelievable.”


Josh Jackson, 6’8” freshman forward, Kansas
“He’s my favorite player in this draft. As gifted a scorer as he is, I think he has a lot of untapped potential in that area. The off-court stuff is definitely a concern. You’re talking about two incidents in one year. Is that going to be a lingering issue? You don’t have to run plays for him. I think one day he could be a Jimmy Butler type guy. He has shooting deficiencies, but they went in at Kansas. I don’t know how they went in, but they did. He plays with a chip on his shoulder. If he’s able to shoot, he’ll be a Grant Hill or an Iguodala. If he doesn’t, he’ll be like Corey Brewer, which is still pretty good.”



I really don't like scouting reports with conjecture about "being a winning player" but as someone who hopes Boston takes Fultz off the board before the 76ers pick, I hope that's not something Ainge pays much attention.
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Re: 2016-2017 College Basketball / '17 NBA Draft Thread IV 

Post#884 » by smittybanton » Sun Jun 11, 2017 2:24 am

LloydFree wrote:
Unbreakable99 wrote:Some good tidbits from Seth Davis. I'm going to pick out a few from his list and post what he said about some prospects we talk about.

https://sethsdrafthouse.com/finch-returns-to-dish-on-nba-prospects-fa57b7c494ef

Markelle Fultz, 6’4” freshman point guard, Washington
“I’d take him number one. His main weakness is defense, but he has some ability to play defense when there’s something at stake. He needs to be around a winning culture to get the best out of him. The most complete player in the draft. I don’t like that he cruises sometimes. He’s almost like Daryl Strawberry. Is he loafing or is he just that smooth? I don’t know that winning has ever been important to him. I’ve talked to friends who recruited him, and they said even when they watched him in open gyms or playing AAU, his team hardly ever won. That scares the crap out of me.”


Lonzo Ball, 6’6” freshman guard, UCLA
“I couldn’t care less about the dad. This isn’t Little League. Everybody loves playing with players who get them the ball where they like it and control the pace of the game. He’s stronger than people give him credit for. I’m not really sure how he’s going to get a pullup jumper off the dribble. The only way he can get that jumper off is with a stepback. Obviously, he’s a really good passer. What makes him so good is his mind. If he’s the best player on your team, you’re in trouble, but if he’s the second or third best, you can win big with him. He’s going to have a hard time guarding point guards, but his defensive instincts off the ball are unbelievable.”


Josh Jackson, 6’8” freshman forward, Kansas
“He’s my favorite player in this draft. As gifted a scorer as he is, I think he has a lot of untapped potential in that area. The off-court stuff is definitely a concern. You’re talking about two incidents in one year. Is that going to be a lingering issue? You don’t have to run plays for him. I think one day he could be a Jimmy Butler type guy. He has shooting deficiencies, but they went in at Kansas. I don’t know how they went in, but they did. He plays with a chip on his shoulder. If he’s able to shoot, he’ll be a Grant Hill or an Iguodala. If he doesn’t, he’ll be like Corey Brewer, which is still pretty good.”



I really don't like scouting reports with conjecture about "being a winning player" but as someone who hopes Boston takes Fultz off the board before the 76ers pick, I hope that's not something Ainge pays much attention.


Not a Fultz proponent, but wow: https://www.usab.com/basketball/players/mens/f/fultz-markelle.aspx
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Re: 2016-2017 College Basketball / '17 NBA Draft Thread IV 

Post#885 » by 76ciology » Sun Jun 11, 2017 2:56 am

Lovetron Joe wrote:That was a good read, thanks for sharing. If Tatum is the next Melo and Jackson is his favorite player in the draft, who is Jackson? MJ?


Melo comparison is not necessarily THAT GOOD. Sounds like a heavy raw stats but low impact type player IMO

Grant Hill, Iggy and Jimmy Butler all are high impact players. Corey Brewer is also a good impact player on his good years.
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Re: 2016-2017 College Basketball / '17 NBA Draft Thread IV 

Post#886 » by 76ciology » Sun Jun 11, 2017 2:59 am

I think there's a chance Lonzo gets passed up because of his shot and I expect Lonzo to tweak thr mechanics of his shot
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Re: 2016-2017 College Basketball / '17 NBA Draft Thread IV 

Post#887 » by 76ciology » Sun Jun 11, 2017 3:05 am

Fultz got a scary (in a bad way) motor. And as a PG you've got to have great motor to compensate for lack of length. That's why he settles on jumpers on offense and doesnt seems locked in on D.
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Re: 2016-2017 College Basketball / '17 NBA Draft Thread IV 

Post#888 » by 76ciology » Sun Jun 11, 2017 3:09 am

As a PG, the closer you are in being a combo guard, the more likely you are going to be great PG nowadays. I don't know if being a "pure PG" is a good trait nowadays. As much as possible people value "hybrids" than "pure".
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Re: 2016-2017 College Basketball / '17 NBA Draft Thread IV 

Post#889 » by eagereyez » Sun Jun 11, 2017 4:33 am

Any word on a Jackson workout yet? So far I've only seen DSJ confirmed to workout for the 76ers.
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Re: 2016-2017 College Basketball / '17 NBA Draft Thread IV 

Post#890 » by LongLiveHinkie » Sun Jun 11, 2017 5:03 am

Jackson's agent said they are gonna get him in sometime soon.
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Re: 2016-2017 College Basketball / '17 NBA Draft Thread IV 

Post#891 » by smittybanton » Sun Jun 11, 2017 12:58 pm

Rod Beard‏: Interesting that Kennard says he has workouts with #Magic (6th), #Knicks (8th), #Mavericks (9th), #Hornets (11th), who pick before #Pistons.


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Re: 2016-2017 College Basketball / '17 NBA Draft Thread IV 

Post#892 » by Kobblehead » Sun Jun 11, 2017 1:36 pm

If Fultz really always lost AAU and pick-up games, that's legitimately funny.
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Re: 2016-2017 College Basketball / '17 NBA Draft Thread IV 

Post#893 » by SelfishPlayer » Sun Jun 11, 2017 1:58 pm

Regarding Malik Monk, when was the last time an NBA team won a championship with a starter under 6'4" that was drafted to be an NBA shooting guard?

It's perhaps impossible to be the best team in the entire league with a sub 6'4" starter that was drafted to be a shooting guard.
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Re: 2016-2017 College Basketball / '17 NBA Draft Thread IV 

Post#894 » by SelfishPlayer » Sun Jun 11, 2017 2:25 pm

The power forward position in college basketball is so weak that you have to really question what you're looking at when evaluating a dominant prospect that played that position in college. Josh Jackson, Justise Winslow, Anthony Bennett, Michael Beasley, Derrick Williams... That college position is the easiest to dominate at a young age with a length/weight/speed/skill package that's not a mismatch against the adults in the pros.
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Re: 2016-2017 College Basketball / '17 NBA Draft Thread IV 

Post#895 » by HotelVitale » Sun Jun 11, 2017 2:36 pm

SelfishPlayer wrote:Regarding Malik Monk, when was the last time an NBA team won a championship with a starter under 6'4" that was drafted to be an NBA shooting guard?It's perhaps impossible to be the best team in the entire league with a sub 6'4" starter that was drafted to be a shooting guard.
The Heat won 3 championships with Wade as their starter. The Mavs won playing Jason Terry as their second guard (and JJ Barea as their third tough a back-up PG). And Ray Allen was maybe 6'5--do you really think the Celtics won a title because of that one extra inch?

Not saying we should take Monk, but it's better to use your imagination instead of finding arbitrary criteria. Lots of things can work in the NBA--Draymond as a 6'7 center, two 7 footers and another one close to it on the Lakers (Bynum, Gasol, Odom), three massively high usage ball dominant guys who can't shoot 3s on the Heat, etc. Monk's not going to fail because he's 6'3-6'4 in shoes, he'll fail if he's not that good at his role and/or can't develop enough supplementary skills.
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Re: 2016-2017 College Basketball / '17 NBA Draft Thread IV 

Post#896 » by HotelVitale » Sun Jun 11, 2017 2:44 pm

SelfishPlayer wrote:The power forward position in college basketball is so weak that you have to really question what you're looking at when evaluating a dominant prospect that played that position in college. Josh Jackson, Justise Winslow, Anthony Bennett, Michael Beasley, Derrick Williams... That college position is the easiest to dominate at a young age with a length/weight/speed/skill package that's not a mismatch against the adults in the pros.

You're on a roll here: Kawhi, Kevin Durant, Gordon Hayward, Markieff/Marcus Morris, Tobias Harris, Jae Crowder--also played PF-type roles in the NCAA, and were all great value draft picks. I'm sure there are plenty more if you scan the lists of picks from the last decade or so. College prospects are complex bundles of skill, size, mentality, etc--no shourtcut for looking at all that in its complexity, not useful to reduce it to a couple observations about height or the position that defended them sometimes in college, etc.
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Re: 2016-2017 College Basketball / '17 NBA Draft Thread IV 

Post#897 » by SelfishPlayer » Sun Jun 11, 2017 2:48 pm

HotelVitale wrote:
SelfishPlayer wrote:The power forward position in college basketball is so weak that you have to really question what you're looking at when evaluating a dominant prospect that played that position in college. Josh Jackson, Justise Winslow, Anthony Bennett, Michael Beasley, Derrick Williams... That college position is the easiest to dominate at a young age with a length/weight/speed/skill package that's not a mismatch against the adults in the pros.

You're on a roll here: Kawhi, Kevin Durant, Gordon Hayward, Markieff/Marcus Morris, Tobias Harris, Jae Crowder--also played PF-type roles in the NCAA, and were all great value draft picks. I'm sure there are plenty more if you scan the lists of picks from the last decade or so. College prospects are complex bundles of skill, size, mentality, etc--no shourtcut for looking at all that in its complexity, not useful to reduce it to a couple observations about height or the position that defended them sometimes in college, etc.


Wrong, I only named guys good enough to be 1st round picks after one college season. Kawhi played two seasons and probably wasn't a 1 st round pick after his freshman campaign. Durant played how many years ago? :noway:
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Re: 2016-2017 College Basketball / '17 NBA Draft Thread IV 

Post#898 » by SelfishPlayer » Sun Jun 11, 2017 2:57 pm

HotelVitale wrote:
SelfishPlayer wrote:Regarding Malik Monk, when was the last time an NBA team won a championship with a starter under 6'4" that was drafted to be an NBA shooting guard?It's perhaps impossible to be the best team in the entire league with a sub 6'4" starter that was drafted to be a shooting guard.
The Heat won 3 championships with Wade as their starter. The Mavs won playing Jason Terry as their second guard (and JJ Barea as their third tough a back-up PG). And Ray Allen was maybe 6'5--do you really think the Celtics won a title because of that one extra inch?

Not saying we should take Monk, but it's better to use your imagination instead of finding arbitrary criteria. Lots of things can work in the NBA--Draymond as a 6'7 center, two 7 footers and another one close to it on the Lakers (Bynum, Gasol, Odom), three massively high usage ball dominant guys who can't shoot 3s on the Heat, etc. Monk's not going to fail because he's 6'3-6'4 in shoes, he'll fail if he's not that good at his role and/or can't develop enough supplementary skills.


Two paragraphs and no starting SG under 6'4"... :banghead:
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Re: 2016-2017 College Basketball / '17 NBA Draft Thread IV 

Post#899 » by AdotSmoove » Sun Jun 11, 2017 3:23 pm

SelfishPlayer wrote:
vtime wrote:2 inches doesn't make that much of a difference, especially if he's paired with a big pg, the effect is gone, hell, Philly fans of all people should know about undersized shooting guards, you had a 6'0 MVP shooting guard. They paired him with big pgs and went to the Finals.


Yeah but Allen Iverson was drafted as a PG and played PG at an All Star level. Monk didn't play PG at all in college and doesn't look capable. PG is a more valuable position than short shooting guard. You do not draft a short shooting guard high in the draft. Besides when you start comparing the former #1 pick in the draft and hall of famer to someone that may not go top 5, you are traveling down the wrong road. Lou Williams, Jamal Murray, Shawn Respert, and Tony Delk are some short shooting guards that deserve to be in conversation with Monk more than Iverson.


But BS is the PG. The argument is that Monk can guard the PGs so Simmons won't have to which also happens to mitigate Monk's size issue. Two inches won't stop Monk from getting his shot off on the other end.

Also everyone compares Monk to LouWill. It took sweet Lou a long time to reach the level he is at and partially because LouWill is not athletic. Sweet Lou was also not a prolific jump shooter coming in, he was just a shot creator from mid range in - very much like AI.

Monk isn't that type of player. He may still be best suited for 6th man, but he certainly has the athletic potential to become a very good perimeter defender. Like JJ Reddick is 1 inch taller, has an average wingspan and is just barely athletic enough to make a living in the NBA as a starter. And you mean to tell me Monk can't start and is doomed to 6th man status because he's 6'3?

What Monk is is a mix of LouWill for swag, Jamal Murray for the stroke and Nate Robinson for the hops. He may not put it all together but he has a natural touch and the athleticism to be as good as he wants to be. The only reason I don't take Monk at 3 is because we have the kings trade lined up: #3 + Okafor + Furkan for 5+10. (Furkan is just a sweetener)


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Re: 2016-2017 College Basketball / '17 NBA Draft Thread IV 

Post#900 » by AdotSmoove » Sun Jun 11, 2017 3:36 pm

Lovetron Joe wrote:That was a good read, thanks for sharing. If Tatum is the next Melo and Jackson is his favorite player in the draft, who is Jackson? MJ?


I'm wondering what the difference between "good athletically" and "big-time athlete" is.


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