Official #1 pick thread: Simmons or Ingram? Merging topics and a Poll

[PhilasFinest]

Nice video/article on Simmons' defensive potential...take it FWIW

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/page/Coach15602825/ben-simmons-nba-ceiling

Edit: Saw this was already posted by unbreakable! My bad. Maybe it's worth a 2nd read though

I hadn't seen this. Good stuff. Thanks for sharing.

[freshie2]

Interesting to see that side of Simmons game highlighted.

[PhilasFinest]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovWrlaq-ieI[/youtube]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnvmmBEvbPI[/youtube]

(both videos have Simmons taking & making Jump shots)

I see NO reason why Simmons can't not only develop a jump shot, but a turn around in the post and the ability to shoot off the bounce.
He shot almost 70% from the FT line on nearly 300 FTA.

Put this kid in an NBA setting with elite coaching/development (BB helped improve Kawhi in San Antonio and Okafor's FT shooting) and with a coach who's going to allow him to grow and give him the green light to shoot and I think he's going to improve this aspect of his game over the next few years. Repetition,Confidence and some minor tweaking and this kid could be an absolute PROBLEM.

[HankTheTank]

Nice video/article on Simmons' defensive potential...take it FWIW

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/page/Coach15602825/ben-simmons-nba-ceiling

Edit: Saw this was already posted by unbreakable! My bad. Maybe it's worth a 2nd read though

I'm glad to see this linked here. I absolutely love Ingram, but Simmons is the pick. We know the obvious reasons Simmons stands out, but consider:

Perhaps the best indicator for defensive awareness and ability is steals. Simmons led the nation in steals for players over 6'5.

He is also an elite rebounder, and that is a skill which usually translates from college to the NBA.

He can defend any position on the floor.

It is close, but Simmons has a chance to be unique, one of the best handful of players in the league. I'd take the higher ceiling.

[76ciology]

Ben Simmons shooting almost 70% on 300 FTA is encouraging. Ingram's 68% FT% is something to take caution with, personally leaning towards an inconsistent shooter. (philasfinest&chad ford)

Ingram doesn't have that much loopholes to his game. Strength is on the uptrend. (Chad ford secret gym workout)

Ingram's 2 way game and Simmons' high potential defense has a high chance to translate into the pros. Both guys have high upside. (David thorpe praises Ben Simmons' defense; SGW by Chad Ford stating Ingram can be a superstar SG; freakish length and shooting translates well in the NBA like KAT and KP)

Simmons has shown ability to dominate a game. It's just tough to see him be dominant in the NBA without a jumper. If jumper doesn't work, you slide him to PF and play the Blake Griffin role.

Ingram needs a lot of work before being dominant. Even KD struggled initially in the NBA, despite being a scoring prodigy in NCAA. A lot of it has to do with strength and conditioning.

Ingram maybe less skilled as Simmons, but handcheck rule, his 41% 3pt% plus his guard skillset (only 17% of FGs were assisted) can easily make him close to as effective as a star perimeter player to drive and draw.

For both guys' ultimate upside, it's a battle on who can shoot..
70+% @rim
45+% mid range
80-90FT%
40+ 3pt%
(Reference: Kawhi, KD & LBJ)

If not, you're likely comparing apple and oranges. Like Giannis vs Middleton.

[eyeatoma]

Why does Simmons have to be a PF!!?? He can play SF... He's mobile enough to (good footspeed and lateral quickness)... In fact, why can't he be the PG on offence, and a SF on Defense?

We did it with Iverson, when he would switch between SG and PG for offense and defense...

[76ciology]

Why does Simmons have to be a PF!!?? He can play SF... He's mobile enough to (good footspeed and lateral quickness)... In fact, why can't he be the PG on offence, and a SF on Defense?

We did it with Iverson, when he would switch between SG and PG for offense and defense...

On paper, better threat leads to more impact and better efficiency. Same reason Noel is much efficient at C than PF or how most guys who are perimeter threats translate to better ORPM.

At PF, more likely a 20/10/5 Griffin/Draymond type player.

If I'm not mistaken, when LBJ was struggling with his jumper earlier this season, people were asking why not try LBJ at PF.

[eyeatoma]

Why does Simmons have to be a PF!!?? He can play SF... He's mobile enough to (good footspeed and lateral quickness)... In fact, why can't he be the PG on offence, and a SF on Defense?

We did it with Iverson, when he would switch between SG and PG for offense and defense...

On paper, better threat leads to more impact and better efficiency. Same reason Noel is much efficient at C than PF or how most guys who are perimeter threats translate to better ORPM.

At PF, more likely a 20/10/5 Griffin/Draymond type player.

If I'm not mistaken, when LBJ was struggling with his jumper earlier this season, people were asking why not try LBJ at PF.

That might be the case, but I don't know why people who many are comparing to some version of Magic Johnson, don't want to play him at Magic's position (point guard)

[marcush]

It really seems to mess with people's heads when someone plays PG on offence and another position on defence.

Traditional positions are almost meaningless except for PG on offence and C on defence. Positions are pretty much allocated based on height relative to your teammates.

[Sixerscan]

Why does Simmons have to be a PF!!?? He can play SF... He's mobile enough to (good footspeed and lateral quickness)... In fact, why can't he be the PG on offence, and a SF on Defense?

We did it with Iverson, when he would switch between SG and PG for offense and defense...

On paper, better threat leads to more impact and better efficiency. Same reason Noel is much efficient at C than PF or how most guys who are perimeter threats translate to better ORPM.

At PF, more likely a 20/10/5 Griffin/Draymond type player.

If I'm not mistaken, when LBJ was struggling with his jumper earlier this season, people were asking why not try LBJ at PF.

That might be the case, but I don't know why people who many are comparing to some version of Magic Johnson, don't want to play him at Magic's position (point guard)

Well Magic didn't play point full time when he first game into the league, Norm Nixon was the starter. Also let's be clear Magic was much further along as with his point guard skills than Simmons is at this point. That isn't to say that Simmons doesn't have those skills and more to say how great Magic was.

It's going to take a few years development for Simmons to be able to play the point full time, if he ever does.

[eyeatoma]

On paper, better threat leads to more impact and better efficiency. Same reason Noel is much efficient at C than PF or how most guys who are perimeter threats translate to better ORPM.

At PF, more likely a 20/10/5 Griffin/Draymond type player.

If I'm not mistaken, when LBJ was struggling with his jumper earlier this season, people were asking why not try LBJ at PF.

That might be the case, but I don't know why people who many are comparing to some version of Magic Johnson, don't want to play him at Magic's position (point guard)

Well Magic didn't play point full time when he first game into the league, Norm Nixon was the starter. Also let's be clear Magic was much further along as with his point guard skills than Simmons is at this point. That isn't to say that Simmons doesn't have those skills and more to say how great Magic was.

It's going to take a few years development for Simmons to be able to play the point full time, if he ever does.

True, but Simmons I feel definitely has a better handle than Giannis, and IMO is already a better passer. Giannis broke out as a PG on the Bucks during the end of the season... You really think Simmons will need to wait a few seasons, obviously Giannis did, but don't think th initial vision for him as a player was as PG...While on the other hand people know Simmons as a point...

[Ericb5]

That might be the case, but I don't know why people who many are comparing to some version of Magic Johnson, don't want to play him at Magic's position (point guard)

Well Magic didn't play point full time when he first game into the league, Norm Nixon was the starter. Also let's be clear Magic was much further along as with his point guard skills than Simmons is at this point. That isn't to say that Simmons doesn't have those skills and more to say how great Magic was.

It's going to take a few years development for Simmons to be able to play the point full time, if he ever does.

True, but Simmons I feel definitely has a better handle than Giannis, and IMO is already a better passer. Giannis broke out as a PG on the Bucks during the end of the season... You really think Simmons will need to wait a few seasons, obviously Giannis did, but don't think th initial vision for him as a player was as PG...While on the other hand people know Simmons as a point...

Simmons is more equipped to play the point than Giannis is.

I think that Simmons is a hybrid player who's closest positional description will be point forward, like Lebron.

I think he could run the team. Now does that make him a point guard? Sort of.

I think that we would need a secondary ball handler that would get more work handling the ball than your typical secondary ball handler.

We also would need quick shooters capable of defending the point.

Someone like Russell or Murray are a type of player that I usually am not a big fan of, but with Simmons these types of players become ideal teammates.

So while i probably prefer Dunn to Murray as a prospect, I would select Murray because of his fit with Simmons, and because Murray and Dunn are in the same tier talent wise.

[Sixerscan]

That might be the case, but I don't know why people who many are comparing to some version of Magic Johnson, don't want to play him at Magic's position (point guard)

Well Magic didn't play point full time when he first game into the league, Norm Nixon was the starter. Also let's be clear Magic was much further along as with his point guard skills than Simmons is at this point. That isn't to say that Simmons doesn't have those skills and more to say how great Magic was.

It's going to take a few years development for Simmons to be able to play the point full time, if he ever does.

True, but Simmons I feel definitely has a better handle than Giannis, and IMO is already a better passer. Giannis broke out as a PG on the Bucks during the end of the season... You really think Simmons will need to wait a few seasons, obviously Giannis did, but don't think th initial vision for him as a player was as PG...While on the other hand people know Simmons as a point...

Giannis had some great stats, I'm not sure how well the Bucks did as a team though. They had the 26th ranked offense this year, did it get much better after they made the switch? How much of that is just that MCW is awful?

Obviously this is very different, but it reminds me of when Turner would start at point guard and put up big numbers and people would be like "see he needs to play the point!" It's not about the individual player's stats it's about how well the team does, especially with a position like point guard. Simmons is a great passer and ball handler for his size but I think playing him with multiple other ball handlers would help him out at least to start.

Although on the other hand maybe, like Giannis, you can argue that forcing Simmons to play point from day 1 will help with his development. I could see either argument.

[Agnostifarian]

Ingram vs Simmons: Which player has demonstrated the willingness and ability to "be coached?"

Ingram played for Coach K on a team that had to play with a seven man rotation due to the injury to Jefferson. Ingram was asked to play positions 1 - 4 on both sides of the ball. He had to play without fouling. He had to guard PFs like Brice Johnson and a couple games later he was bringing the ball up the floor against the Louisville press -- something he struggled with but he did it for the entire game. Ingram facilitated the offense while Grayson Allen ran off screens. At other times, he became the go to scorer. Ingram got better as the season wore on despite a late shooting slump.

The Colangelos are close with Coach K. They will trust his commentary on Ingram. I don't think they will give a rat's ass about what Johnny Jones says about Simmons. Brett Brown coached Simmons' dad and he probably knows every coach that Simmons has played for. Doesn't matter. The Colangelos will defer to Coach K on this issue and land solidly in the Ingram camp, IMO.

[Unbreakable99]

Ingram vs Simmons: Which player has demonstrated the willingness and ability to "be coached?"

Ingram played for Coach K on a team that had to play with a seven man rotation due to the injury to Jefferson. Ingram was asked to play positions 1 - 4 on both sides of the ball. He had to play without fouling. He had to guard PFs like Brice Johnson and a couple games later he was bringing the ball up the floor against the Louisville press -- something he struggled with but he did it for the entire game. Ingram facilitated the offense while Grayson Allen ran off screens. At other times, he became the go to scorer. Ingram got better as the season wore on despite a late shooting slump.

The Colangelos are close with Coach K. They will trust his commentary on Ingram. I don't think they will give a rat's ass about what Johnny Jones says about Simmons. Brett Brown coached Simmons' dad and he probably knows every coach that Simmons has played for. Doesn't matter. The Colangelos will defer to Coach K on this issue and land solidly in the Ingram camp, IMO.

They are not going to draft Ingram. This is ridiculous. And if Simmons went to Duke he would have been asked to do the same. I can't believe the levels people will go to belittle Simmons. Smh. The good thing is only about 30 more days until all this talk ends and we get Simmons. I equate all this talk about Ingram to an MMA fighter talking trash for months on the lead up to a big fight. Come fight time he will have no answer and lose handily and then look silly when the fight ends. This is the Ingram camp. All talk but when draft night happens there will be no answer and they will have this stupid look on their face when Simmons goes first to the Sixers.

[freshie2]

No offense, but if Simmons is the better prospect, and the interviews don't raise any major red flags, why would BC go with coach K's opinion on Ingram's character? Ingram's handle isn't tight enough to play point, and he's too weak to play PF...he's a wing with great length, a nice shot, and serviceable quickness. We need to cut back on Ingram's versatility to play 4 positions as a deciding factor...this has to be considered in context of playing against NBA talent.

As much as Coach K will know Ingram, BB will know Simmons. Maybe he isn't 'coachable'...none of us have any idea on this. LSU was a train wreck and very disappointing. Some fault does go to Simmons, but he didn't have much around him, and some of this does have to go to the coaching staff as well. It wasn't like Shaq playing for Dale Brown...it would be a different story if Simmons had played for a great coach, and was benched for his 'attitude' or had other character issues, but he was playing for a coaching staff that isn't at that level. I don't think it impacts his draft status, but in hindsight his year in college would have been viewed differently if he went to play for a legit coach/program.

[eagereyez]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEFygilo3Sw[/youtube]

Simmons when asked about his jumper. He sounds like a pretty cocky dude. I love it.

[Agnostifarian]

Ingram vs Simmons: Which player has demonstrated the willingness and ability to "be coached?"

Ingram played for Coach K on a team that had to play with a seven man rotation due to the injury to Jefferson. Ingram was asked to play positions 1 - 4 on both sides of the ball. He had to play without fouling. He had to guard PFs like Brice Johnson and a couple games later he was bringing the ball up the floor against the Louisville press -- something he struggled with but he did it for the entire game. Ingram facilitated the offense while Grayson Allen ran off screens. At other times, he became the go to scorer. Ingram got better as the season wore on despite a late shooting slump.

The Colangelos are close with Coach K. They will trust his commentary on Ingram. I don't think they will give a rat's ass about what Johnny Jones says about Simmons. Brett Brown coached Simmons' dad and he probably knows every coach that Simmons has played for. Doesn't matter. The Colangelos will defer to Coach K on this issue and land solidly in the Ingram camp, IMO.

They are not going to draft Ingram. This is ridiculous. And if Simmons went to Duke he would have been asked to do the same. I can't believe the levels people will go to belittle Simmons. Smh. The good thing is only about 30 more days until all this talk ends and we get Simmons. I equate all this talk about Ingram to an MMA fighter talking trash for months on the lead up to a big fight. Come fight time he will have no answer and lose handily and then look silly when the fight ends. This is the Ingram camp. All talk but when draft night happens there will be no answer and they will have this stupid look on their face when Simmons goes first to the Sixers.

I don't see anything in my post belittling Simmons. Fortunately, we get to choose between two excellent prospects. In my post, I clearly stated that Ingram appears to be very coachable. I think that can be a deciding factor for the Colangelos.

You, on the other hand, have decided that Simmons is being persecuted. I have no idea what the MMA trash talking tangent has to do with coach-ability... The debate about which one of these prospects is worthy of the number one pick is not one between the enlightened and the stupid.

Stupid is denying that there is a debate.

[Unbreakable99]

Ingram vs Simmons: Which player has demonstrated the willingness and ability to "be coached?"

Ingram played for Coach K on a team that had to play with a seven man rotation due to the injury to Jefferson. Ingram was asked to play positions 1 - 4 on both sides of the ball. He had to play without fouling. He had to guard PFs like Brice Johnson and a couple games later he was bringing the ball up the floor against the Louisville press -- something he struggled with but he did it for the entire game. Ingram facilitated the offense while Grayson Allen ran off screens. At other times, he became the go to scorer. Ingram got better as the season wore on despite a late shooting slump.

The Colangelos are close with Coach K. They will trust his commentary on Ingram. I don't think they will give a rat's ass about what Johnny Jones says about Simmons. Brett Brown coached Simmons' dad and he probably knows every coach that Simmons has played for. Doesn't matter. The Colangelos will defer to Coach K on this issue and land solidly in the Ingram camp, IMO.

They are not going to draft Ingram. This is ridiculous. And if Simmons went to Duke he would have been asked to do the same. I can't believe the levels people will go to belittle Simmons. Smh. The good thing is only about 30 more days until all this talk ends and we get Simmons. I equate all this talk about Ingram to an MMA fighter talking trash for months on the lead up to a big fight. Come fight time he will have no answer and lose handily and then look silly when the fight ends. This is the Ingram camp. All talk but when draft night happens there will be no answer and they will have this stupid look on their face when Simmons goes first to the Sixers.

I don't see anything in my post belittling Simmons. Fortunately, we get to choose between two excellent prospects. In my post, I clearly stated that Ingram appears to be very coachable. I think that can be a deciding factor for the Colangelos.

You, on the other hand, have decided that Simmons is being persecuted. I have no idea what the MMA trash talking tangent has to do with coach-ability... The debate about which one of these prospects is worthy of the number one pick is not one between the enlightened and the stupid.

Stupid is denying that there is a debate.

Well I don't think there is a debate. I don't think there is much debate in the Sixers front office either or whichever team had the number one pick. Whichever team got the number one pick were going to draft Simmons. And I do think it's just the media pumping up this debate. It's like pumping up a decent fighter against a great boxer knowing that fighter has no chance to beat the champ. It's just drawing up interest and making fans think there is chance the champ could lose. And no I don't think Coach K pumping up Ingram will sway anyone on the Sixers. BC has already been drooling over Simmons in interviews. This debate is not close. It's an easy decision. Very easy. I do like Ingram a lot but it's not even close for me. Thankfully the Sixers will make the right choice and draft Simmons.

[05PhillyAI]

They are not going to draft Ingram. This is ridiculous. And if Simmons went to Duke he would have been asked to do the same. I can't believe the levels people will go to belittle Simmons. Smh. The good thing is only about 30 more days until all this talk ends and we get Simmons. I equate all this talk about Ingram to an MMA fighter talking trash for months on the lead up to a big fight. Come fight time he will have no answer and lose handily and then look silly when the fight ends. This is the Ingram camp. All talk but when draft night happens there will be no answer and they will have this stupid look on their face when Simmons goes first to the Sixers.

I don't see anything in my post belittling Simmons. Fortunately, we get to choose between two excellent prospects. In my post, I clearly stated that Ingram appears to be very coachable. I think that can be a deciding factor for the Colangelos.

You, on the other hand, have decided that Simmons is being persecuted. I have no idea what the MMA trash talking tangent has to do with coach-ability... The debate about which one of these prospects is worthy of the number one pick is not one between the enlightened and the stupid.

Stupid is denying that there is a debate.

Well I don't think there is a debate. I don't think there is much debate in the Sixers front office either or whichever team had the number one pick. Whichever team got the number one pick were going to draft Simmons. And I do think it's just the media pumping up this debate. It's like pumping up a decent fighter against a great boxer knowing that fighter has no chance to beat the champ. It's just drawing up interest and making fans think there is chance the champ could lose. And no I don't think Coach K pumping up Ingram will sway anyone on the Sixers. BC has already been drooling over Simmons in interviews. This debate is not close. It's an easy decision. Very easy. I do like Ingram a lot but it's not even close for me. Thankfully the Sixers will make the right choice and draft Simmons.

Wrong on many accounts