Markelle Fultz Discussion II

[Mik317]

Ainge wanted Tatum so bad that's why he totally didn't fly across the country to meet Jackson and got stiffed...no siree .

Ainge was not going to take Tatum at 1. Nor Jackson at 1. He was going to trade down. Enough teams were starving for guards to have done it even if it ended up being a 1 for 1 type deal...he was going to find a deal because that's what he does...he didn't need a guard and the top 2 (arguably 3) guys were guards...finding a taker wouldn't have been that hard.

God some of you are so insufferable about Fultz that you have created this fantasy world where everything about him is bad. Again I was team Fox/Jackson for the draft and I am worried that we got got too..but holy **** guys. Lets give the kid a chance for **** sake instead of jumping at every shadow that even seemingly points to him being bad....

[CoreyGallagher]

Also, ignoring that Woj reported that the Lakers wanted to trade up to #1 to draft Fultz is always convenient in these reactions.

[Gsraider]

It’s not, there are truly awful teams this season and the Lakers aren’t among them, the Lakers are among a handful of just bad teams. They need to finish ahead of one of those bad teams and some of them will eventually begin tanking.

If the Lakers are even 6th worst they’ll only have a 15% of getting the pick. As soon as they’re not bottom 5 it becomes very unlikely.

Meanwhile, Kings will likely be getting a top pick, they already have some nice prospects, they’re just young. Could very well improve quite a bit.

Exactly. The Lakers are improved and will continue to improve in all likelihood. If the pick lands within 2-5, it could be painful for Philly, but so early on, it could easily land at 6 or later. Hell, it could land at 6 or later even if the Lakers finish with the 3rd or 4th worst record in the league due to the lottery. Of course, the opposite holds true as well, but let's say the pick does not convey this year for arguments sake. I fully expected the Kings to be bad this year, but after what appeared to be a solid draft and some decent, veteran signings, I could see them improving as the year goes on. It won't help them much this year, but next year, I could see them move up a few spots and possibly be at least towards the mid to late lottery.

Another interesting point is that this year, the Lakers have no reason to tank games at any point in the season even if it goes south. Either way, their pick is gone, so they could steal some games later in the year because for them it makes sense to win all year long. Same holds for the Kings next year. Just the same, Philly has to pay players like Simmons, Saric?, Covington, and possibly Fultz in the coming years. If guys pan out, incoming lottery picks become harder to slot and harder to pay. That assumes massive improvement mind you, but it's reasonable if anyone actual had some patience.

[BullyKing]

Also, ignoring that both Woj and Stein reported that the Lakers wanted to trade up to #1 to draft Fultz is always convenient in these reactions.

They’re rarely wrong reporting something on their own, both of them reporting it...

My favorite part of all this is that watching a couple games of an injured Fultz has fully confirmed certain opinions about him. Yet the whole hatred of moving up for him was the opinion of some that Ball and Jackson are better yet somehow the fact that both have been awful so far is seemingly irrelevant.

So to recap:

Couple games of injured Fultz = see I told you he was awful
10% of season and Ball/Jackson look bad = either crickets or its early, too soon to judge

[Gsraider]

Also, ignoring that both Woj and Stein reported that the Lakers wanted to trade up to #1 to draft Fultz is always convenient in these reactions.

They’re rarely wrong reporting something on their own, both of them reporting it...

Not sure about Stein, but when was the last time Woj was wrong, particularly when he was part of Yahoo? If he reported that Fultz killed the workout and LA wanted to trade up with Boston to take him, I believe it. I don't necessarily believe any of the others, but with Woj, it's hard to ignore. Unless you want to of course and it fits your narrative.

[Unbreakable99]

Ainge wanted Tatum so bad that's why he totally didn't fly across the country to meet Jackson and got stiffed...no siree .

Ainge was not going to take Tatum at 1. Nor Jackson at 1. He was going to trade down. Enough teams were starving for guards to have done it even if it ended up being a 1 for 1 type deal...he was going to find a deal because that's what he does...he didn't need a guard and the top 2 (arguably 3) guys were guards...finding a taker wouldn't have been that hard.

God some of you are so insufferable about Fultz that you have created this fantasy world where everything about him is bad. Again I was team Fox/Jackson for the draft and I am worried that we got got too..but holy **** guys. Lets give the kid a chance for **** sake instead of jumping at every shadow that even seemingly points to him being bad....

My point is if Ainge couldn’t find a sucker to trade the top pick and stood pat at number one he wasn’t going to draft Fultz. That much is very clear.

[LloydFree]

Ainge wanted Tatum so bad that's why he totally didn't fly across the country to meet Jackson and got stiffed...no siree .

Ainge was not going to take Tatum at 1. Nor Jackson at 1. He was going to trade down. Enough teams were starving for guards to have done it even if it ended up being a 1 for 1 type deal...he was going to find a deal because that's what he does...he didn't need a guard and the top 2 (arguably 3) guys were guards...finding a taker wouldn't have been that hard.

God some of you are so insufferable about Fultz that you have created this fantasy world where everything about him is bad. Again I was team Fox/Jackson for the draft and I am worried that we got got too...but holy **** guys. Lets give the kid a chance for **** sake instead of jumping at every shadow that even seemingly points to him being bad....

Stop worrying that we may have got got. I'm not worried we got got. I know we got got...

[CoreyGallagher]

Not sure about Stein, but when was the last time Woj was wrong, particularly when he was part of Yahoo? If he reported that Fultz killed the workout and LA wanted to trade up with Boston to take him, I believe it. I don't necessarily believe any of the others, but with Woj, it's hard to ignore. Unless you want to of course and it fits your narrative.

Checked. Stein was just quoting Givony. Woj reported it himself, though.

[HotelVitale]

The flaw with all that analysis is... it’s far from a sure thing the Celtics are getting another top 5 pick. It’s just as likely they get a 2019 13th overall pick as it is they get a 2018 2nd overall pick.

You missed the actual analysis part. I don't think it's controversial to say it's statistically most likely to be a top-5 pick--if it's not this year (I might even bet at even money it's not top 5 this year), then it's still likely to be based on projections of the Kings in 2019. The whole point of valuing prospects and draft assets is that they're fundamentally uncertain values: you have to evaluate them based on probability and not 'but if everything goes right and all the chips fall our way...' You never deal based on things like that, or at least only in rare circumstances where you're taking a big upside gamble. (It's also not at all likely that the pick is like #13 overall in 2019--that would take a best case scenario that I would say has maybe 10% of happening; the Kings suck, they're rebuilding and obviously not on the the way up, they don't even have huge cap space this offeason.)

To be clear, I don't think the Fultz trade was a wild debacle (I'm closer to the center on that than a couple other folks here) but I think it was clearly bad value. BC misread our situation as more dire/urgent than it was and talked himself into overvaluing the top prospect in the draft, think he fell in love with the idea of Fultz-- the #1 guy who also fit us--rather than the reality of Fultz the basketball player vs #3 plus another high pick.

[Gsraider]

My point is if Ainge couldn’t find a sucker to trade the top pick and stood pat at number one he wasn’t going to draft Fultz. That much is very clear.

If that part is clear to you, it should be equally clear to you that he was never going to stay at #1 and pick. It has been made abundantly clear that he didn't have to. If you are trying to make the argument that all things being equal, Ainge graded Tatum as the better overall prospect, you are reaching and totally guessing to support your argument. The only possibility here that you might be able to point to is that Ainge was able to extract more from Philly because the Lakers were prepared to pounce if Philly didn't. If that's the case, then BC was in a tough position if he really wanted Fultz because he had to pay more than LA, since they had the #2 pick.

Whatever the case, we are where we are right now and time will bear this out. What do you say we actually give them some?

[LloydFree]

Ainge wanted Tatum so bad that's why he totally didn't fly across the country to meet Jackson and got stiffed...no siree .

Ainge was not going to take Tatum at 1. Nor Jackson at 1. He was going to trade down. Enough teams were starving for guards to have done it even if it ended up being a 1 for 1 type deal...he was going to find a deal because that's what he does...he didn't need a guard and the top 2 (arguably 3) guys were guards...finding a taker wouldn't have been that hard.

God some of you are so insufferable about Fultz that you have created this fantasy world where everything about him is bad. Again I was team Fox/Jackson for the draft and I am worried that we got got too..but holy **** guys. Lets give the kid a chance for **** sake instead of jumping at every shadow that even seemingly points to him being bad....

My point is if Ainge couldn’t find a sucker to trade the top pick and stood pat at number one he wasn’t going to draft Fultz. That much is very clear.

I look at it a bit differently. I'm not concerned with who Ainge would have taken at #1. (I have my ideas about who he wanted and it wasn't Fultz). I'm not even concerned with who Ainge actually picked. I'm only concerned with the competence of our GM. Personally, I don't understand how any competent NBA person watched these players and concluded Fultz was the #1 player. But it is downright scary to me, that Colangelo could watch these players and conclude Fultz was good enough to trade up to get. Incomprehensible. It doesn't bode well for future decisions. He's either on drugs or he's stupid.

[Unbreakable99]

My point is if Ainge couldn’t find a sucker to trade the top pick and stood pat at number one he wasn’t going to draft Fultz. That much is very clear.

If that part is clear to you, it should be equally clear to you that he was never going to stay at #1 and pick. It has been made abundantly clear that he didn't have to. If you are trying to make the argument that all things being equal, Ainge graded Tatum as the better overall prospect, you are reaching and totally guessing to support your argument. The only possibility here that you might be able to point to is that Ainge was able to extract more from Philly because the Lakers were prepared to pounce if Philly didn't. If that's the case, then BC was in a tough position if he really wanted Fultz because he had to pay more than LA, since they had the #2 pick.

Whatever the case, we are where we are right now and time will bear this out. What do you say we actually give them some?

He didn’t have to because a sucker is born every minute. Ainge FLEECED BC. Of all the scenarios the last thing I wanted to do was trade up. We were in a great spot at 3. I’m going to give it time but I’m not happy with what happened. I hate getting fleeced.

[JojoSlimbiid]

Couch scouts yall

[Unbreakable99]

Ainge wanted Tatum so bad that's why he totally didn't fly across the country to meet Jackson and got stiffed...no siree .

Ainge was not going to take Tatum at 1. Nor Jackson at 1. He was going to trade down. Enough teams were starving for guards to have done it even if it ended up being a 1 for 1 type deal...he was going to find a deal because that's what he does...he didn't need a guard and the top 2 (arguably 3) guys were guards...finding a taker wouldn't have been that hard.

God some of you are so insufferable about Fultz that you have created this fantasy world where everything about him is bad. Again I was team Fox/Jackson for the draft and I am worried that we got got too..but holy **** guys. Lets give the kid a chance for **** sake instead of jumping at every shadow that even seemingly points to him being bad....

My point is if Ainge couldn’t find a sucker to trade the top pick and stood pat at number one he wasn’t going to draft Fultz. That much is very clear.

I look at it a bit differently. I'm not concerned with who Ainge would have taken at #1. (I have my ideas about who he wanted and it wasn't Fultz). I'm not even concerned with who Ainge actually picked. I'm only concerned with the competence of our GM. Personally, I don't understand how any competent NBA person watched these players and concluded Fultz was the #1 player. But it is downright scary to me, that Colangelo could watch these players and conclude Fultz was good enough to trade up to get. Incomprehensible. It doesn't bode well for future decisions. He's either on drugs or he's stupid.

Well said. He’s with on drugs or he’s stupid OR BOTH!

[ProcessDoctor]

Also, ignoring that both Woj and Stein reported that the Lakers wanted to trade up to #1 to draft Fultz is always convenient in these reactions.

They’re rarely wrong reporting something on their own, both of them reporting it...

My favorite part of all this is that watching a couple games of an injured Fultz has fully confirmed certain opinions about him. Yet the whole hatred of moving up for him was the opinion of some that Ball and Jackson are better yet somehow the fact that both have been awful so far is seemingly irrelevant.

So to recap:

Couple games of injured Fultz = see I told you he was awful
10% of season and Ball/Jackson look bad = either crickets or its early, too soon to judge

This exactly. First, it was Ball and Jackson. Now it's Tatum, Markannen, and DSJ.

The list will keep changing to fit people's narratives as to why trading up for Fultz was a mistake.

[Gsraider]

He didn’t have to because a sucker is born every minute. Ainge FLEECED BC. Of all the scenarios the last thing I wanted to do was trade up. We were in a great spot at 3. I’m going to give it time but I’m not happy with what happened. I hate getting fleeced.

OK. Uncle. This is like arguing with my son when he simply wants to be right. Time to move on.

[Negrodamus]

I wasn't a Fultz fan prior to the draft, but after watching him in these first couple of games, I feel like a lot of people on this board will be eating some crow. Me included. He's looked pretty damn good to me.

[Gsraider]

I look at it a bit differently. I'm not concerned with who Ainge would have taken at #1. (I have my ideas about who he wanted and it wasn't Fultz). I'm not even concerned with who Ainge actually picked. I'm only concerned with the competence of our GM. Personally, I don't understand how any competent NBA person watched these players and concluded Fultz was the #1 player. But it is downright scary to me, that Colangelo could watch these players and conclude Fultz was good enough to trade up to get. Incomprehensible. It doesn't bode well for future decisions. He's either on drugs or he's stupid.

That's fair, although there were a lot of people out there that thought Fultz was the #1 overall prospect. In fact, most did. Further, when you expand your scope to include national media that has no skin in the game or an axe to grind, most thought the trade was a pretty good one for Philly. Thus, while you could very well be correct, BC was not alone in his evaluation of Fultz, nor were many blasting him for what he gave to move up and get him. In fact, I think one of those people was our very own Derek Bodner if memory serves and he has a pretty solid track record when it comes to evaluation if memory serves.

Nonetheless, we are where we are right now and all we can do is hope that BC was on to something.

[LloydFree]

Also, ignoring that both Woj and Stein reported that the Lakers wanted to trade up to #1 to draft Fultz is always convenient in these reactions.

They’re rarely wrong reporting something on their own, both of them reporting it...

My favorite part of all this is that watching a couple games of an injured Fultz has fully confirmed certain opinions about him. Yet the whole hatred of moving up for him was the opinion of some that Ball and Jackson are better yet somehow the fact that both have been awful so far is seemingly irrelevant.

So to recap:

Couple games of injured Fultz = see I told you he was awful
10% of season and Ball/Jackson look bad = either crickets or its early, too soon to judge

Nonsense. I followed prospects for 35 years. I don't make judgements on any players based on 10 games of a rookie season. I've seen too much. Gary Payton stunk for 2 years. Dirk stunk it up his rookie year. I make judgments based on how I believe the player's tools will project at the next level. I haven't changed my mind about Fultz or Ball or Jackson. I've watched all of them and they're all doing pretty much what I thought they would early. Ball and Jackson and DSj and Isaac are better talents than Fultz. A 10 game sample of what any of them has done so far means nothing to me.

[GabeCerebro]

Ainge wanted Tatum so bad that's why he totally didn't fly across the country to meet Jackson and got stiffed...no siree .

Ainge was not going to take Tatum at 1. Nor Jackson at 1. He was going to trade down. Enough teams were starving for guards to have done it even if it ended up being a 1 for 1 type deal...he was going to find a deal because that's what he does...he didn't need a guard and the top 2 (arguably 3) guys were guards...finding a taker wouldn't have been that hard.

God some of you are so insufferable about Fultz that you have created this fantasy world where everything about him is bad. Again I was team Fox/Jackson for the draft and I am worried that we got got too..but holy **** guys. Lets give the kid a chance for **** sake instead of jumping at every shadow that even seemingly points to him being bad....

My point is if Ainge couldn’t find a sucker to trade the top pick and stood pat at number one he wasn’t going to draft Fultz. That much is very clear.

No. It was clear they were going to make a deal no matter what. Sacramento was prepared to get a Fultz workout, for example.