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Ericb5 wrote:

LongLiveHinkie wrote:This guy diagnoses sports injuries by video, and was a former team doc for the Chargers. He hasn't seen the video where Fultz got hurt, but he knows his stuff and he said this:

Read on Twitter

I don’t understand the tweet. What comment is concerning?


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The comment by Fultz that the reason his shot looks the way it does is because of his shoulder. He is obviously in a world of pain. I seriously do not understand why we are playing him if his shoulder is in that much pain that he changes his shot so drastically.

“My shoulder is the main reason why my shot’s doing that.”

76ciology wrote:

HotelVitale wrote: I guess that's basically right, but I gotta repeat one final time (then I'll shut up for the day and hopefully week) that I really don't feel Fultz as a star. Can't say exactly what it is but it's about how he's not quite quick, powerful or dynamic enough to allow me project that (even though I really want to). It's like he's missing a higher gear to go into--he plays really well in middle gear for such a young guy, but when he's on he's just doing a very good version of middle gear. It's hard for me to see what he can go to or how he can produce at star levels with the tools he's got. So yeah I think he's a very good prospect but no I don't think he's a likely star while Tatum/JJ/etc are likely role players. I think he's the best of that bunch to bet on, but I'd definitely take the field if we're betting on who's going to be a star. Hope I'm wrong, wish it was different, but gotta say what the eyes see.

So the guy you think should be the #1 pick is the same guy you feel won't be a star?

Yeah, and I voted for HRC and McGinty even though I didn't think either would be great or exciting at their jobs. Most years I love some of the top guys and it's joy to watch them and imagine what they could become; this year there wasn't anyone like that (Ball had the speed of play that came closest and DSJ's power was up there too, but both were lacking in other things).

Maybe there's some semantic differences about a 'star.' I think Fultz could do 22/5/7 on a good team at his peak if things work out--and I think it's fine to peg him for 17/4/6 on a good team even if he doesn't improve some of those things I'm worried about. I took that (upside) + (reasonable expectation) combo over what the other top 5-6 guys were working with, even though I don't see a clear path to him being a 27/5/9 guy or better (at least not if he's not just gunning on a junk team). So if you think Gordon Hayward or Eric Bledsoe are stars, then sure Fultz could become a star. But if you're limiting that name to top 15-20ish guys then I'm thinking no.

LloydFree wrote:I think you got that backwards. At least on this board. Amongst the guys here who actually watch games, probably 75% had someone else ranked as #1 and in many cases someone else #2 also.

I watched at least 6 full games of Fultz, and he wasn't very impressive in any one of his matchups against quality opponents. (Gonzaga, Arizona, Oregon, UCLA). And he sat out nearly all of the road games against the good team's in his conference.

Hmm. Perhaps I got it wrong then and I should check the older topics, I thought that the narrative was that Fultz was the #1 and we were heavily debating about our player for the #3 spot where I favored Jonathan Isaac and many were in love with Josh Jackson and a couple prefered Jayson Tatum. I feel that most of the Dennis Smith jr. love really originated in hindsight after watching him in Summer League and Preseason.

His efficiency dipped a bit against those top tier teams, but I disagree with your take that he wasn't very impressive in those games. Opponents just clogged the court and forced Fultz to take tough shots or see his teammates brick every attempt. He often started the games trying to engage his teammates and took the game over when he realized it was kind of pointless, at least that's how I felt.



Despite the concerns about his quickness see how creative he is around the basket, shifty enough to get Jordan Bell off guard, finishes with both hands. He went 1-5 from deep in this game, but apart from that he was very efficient around the rim against some good shot blockers. 22 points, on 16 shots and basically no easy points from transition because Washington couldn't get a stop as usual.

Jan 4 Oregon: http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/boxscore?gameId=400915606
Jan 21 Utah: http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/boxscore?gameId=400915637
Jan 29 Arizona: http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/boxscore?gameId=400915648
Feb 4 UCLA: http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/boxscore?gameId=400915660
Feb 18 Arizona: http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/boxscore?gameId=400915681

I checked the boxscores and it sort of confirmed my thoughts that he wasn't extremely inefficient (apart from the January 29 game against Arizona). Also look at the percentages of his teammates, there's not one player who had helped him a tiny bit. You could say that that's partly the job of the PG, providing good shots, but with Romar's offense and two useless bigs clogging the lanes it was nearly impossible.

Personally I never had the feeling that any of the prospects in this draft had a realistic chance of reaching superstar level (top 15 player), but Fultz had the best chance imo (with DSJ a close second). He had decent body control at the rim, was creative, shifty with the ball, good handles, had decent vision and his shooting, both off the catch and off the dribble, were really promising.

None of these evaluations should change after 2 good SL games, 1 poor preseason game and a decent one. Now if he continues to be afraid to shoot jumpers the rest of his life, then it's a different story haha.

Nothing would make me happier than Fultz leading the second unit tomorrow night with 15-20 points. This whole drama about a couple of preseason games is absolutely ridiculous.

I liked JJ alot at 3 he for me was the best prospect in the draft heading into last year. I also really liked Fultz at one because lets be honest our guards are trash and it's a guard driven league.

The two guys I really wanted to avoid were Ball and Fox. Both can't shoot.

Kolkmania wrote:

LloydFree wrote:I think you got that backwards. At least on this board. Amongst the guys here who actually watch games, probably 75% had someone else ranked as #1 and in many cases someone else #2 also.

I watched at least 6 full games of Fultz, and he wasn't very impressive in any one of his matchups against quality opponents. (Gonzaga, Arizona, Oregon, UCLA). And he sat out nearly all of the road games against the good team's in his conference.

Hmm. Perhaps I got it wrong then and I should check the older topics, I thought that the narrative was that Fultz was the #1 and we were heavily debating about our player for the #3 spot where I favored Jonathan Isaac and many were in love with Josh Jackson and a couple prefered Jayson Tatum. I feel that most of the Dennis Smith jr. love really originated in hindsight after watching him in Summer League and Preseason.

I do think some of the board's Dennis Smith love happened in hindsight, but it didn't start in Summer league. It started right after the college season, once guys started going through the stats and realized Dennis Smirth's numbers were comparable to Fultz and Ball. But from my recollection of the college game threads during the season I saw this:

CKsdayoff: 1. Fultz
HotelVital: 1. Fultz
Phillyfinest 1. Fultz
Kobblehead: 1. Jackson 2. Ball
Unbreakable: 1. Ball 2. Jackson
Smittybanton: 1. Dennis Smith
Negrodamus: 1. Tatum 2. Fox 3. Mitchell
HanktheTank: 1. Jackson 2. Ball
ShawnHemp: 1. Monk
EricB5: 1. Jackson 2. Ball
Lloydfree: 1. Ball 2. Jackson 3. Dennis Smith
eagereyez: Dennis Smith or Fultz (I think)?

Of the guys who discussed the prospects, that's how i recall it, and nobody changed during summer league or pre-season.

It was certainly hindsight for me with both my opinions on both Fultz and Smith. I'd watch full games available on YouTube because I couldn't suffer through their terrible play in real time.

DSJ and Fultz were, iirc, on the same tier for me. I might have put DSJ a little higher due to athleticism. Both played dreadful defense, but DSJ mentally checked out of games if things started going down hill early. His Louisville game (I think) was embarrassing.

I recognize that the tools are all there, but the tools were there for Gerald Green and Michael Beasley. If he put it all together, mentally, then we might have missed on the best player in the draft. But that could be said of a lot of players.

HotelVitale wrote:

76ciology wrote: I think what you’re saying is that he has the highest chance to be a star player and least chance to be a bust, and that is a good point. Lonzo is high risk or high reward, currently looking like high risk. Tatum, Isaac and JJ are likely to be high end role playing wings and not that high likely to be stars compared to Fultz.

I guess that's basically right, but I gotta repeat one final time (then I'll shut up for the day and hopefully week) that I really don't feel Fultz as a star. Can't say exactly what it is but it's about how he's not quite quick, powerful or dynamic enough to allow me project that (even though I really want to). It's like he's missing a higher gear to go into--he plays really well in middle gear for such a young guy, but when he's on he's just doing a very good version of middle gear. It's hard for me to see what he can go to or how he can produce at star levels with the tools he's got.

So yeah I think he's a very good prospect but no I don't think he's a likely star while Tatum/JJ/etc are likely role players. I think he's the best of that bunch to bet on, but I'd definitely take the field if we're betting on who's going to be a star. Hope I'm wrong, wish it was different, but gotta say what the eyes see.

Well said about the middle gear talking about Fultz. That's a great analogy. He's stuck in middle gear and there is no high gear. If you keep it to the driving analogy then his herky jerky style to try to create space is the equivalent of hitting the breaks then starting again.

It's sort of weird the decision has been made that Fultz can't shoot when he hasn't even really taken a 3PT attempt and most of his shots were drives to the rim.

Fultz also says the reason for this along with his ugly ft shot is the shoulder injury. Maybe, we should wait until he is healthy before writing him off and saying we should have drafted this or that player. It's not like he has a broken shot like Fox and Ball.

Negrodamus wrote:It was certainly hindsight for me with both my opinions on both Fultz and Smith. I'd watch full games available on YouTube because I couldn't suffer through their terrible play in real time.

DSJ and Fultz were, iirc, on the same tier for me. I might have put DSJ a little higher due to athleticism. Both played dreadful defense, but DSJ mentally checked out of games if things started going down hill early. His Louisville game (I think) was embarrassing.

I recognize that the tools are all there, but the tools were there for Gerald Green and Michael Beasley. If he put it all together, mentally, then we might have missed on the best player in the draft. But that could be said of a lot of players.

In the college Pre-season, I said I wouldn't even consider Dennis Smith in the top 3 picks, because he was too small. Then I saw Dennis Smith against Syracuse and Duke and saw he was on a different level than the other players. I saw him playing like he was bored with the competition. Dennis Smith showed that he was clearly superior to his competition (other good players). I didn't see that when I watched Fultz. He had no physical advantage and did not look appreciably better than other good players, when I saw him.

LloydFree wrote:

Negrodamus wrote:It was certainly hindsight for me with both my opinions on both Fultz and Smith. I'd watch full games available on YouTube because I couldn't suffer through their terrible play in real time.

DSJ and Fultz were, iirc, on the same tier for me. I might have put DSJ a little higher due to athleticism. Both played dreadful defense, but DSJ mentally checked out of games if things started going down hill early. His Louisville game (I think) was embarrassing.

I recognize that the tools are all there, but the tools were there for Gerald Green and Michael Beasley. If he put it all together, mentally, then we might have missed on the best player in the draft. But that could be said of a lot of players.

In the college Pre-preason, I said I wouldn't even consider Dennis Smith in the top 3 picks, because he was too small. Then I saw Dennis Smith against Syracuse and Duke and saw he was on a different level than the other players. I saw him playing like he was bored with the competition. Dennis Smith showed that he was clearly superior to his competition (other good players). I didn't see that when I watched Fultz. He had no physical advantage and did not look appreciably better than other good players, when I saw him.

It was the other way around for me, Dennis Smith was by far the best guard I've seen in high school in the few years I've been focusing on the draft more. Along the season I became really worried if he lost a bit of his lateral quickness and some of the games his effort was absolutely abysmal. Fultz was on par with Smith after his U18 tournament with the US but kept impressing me throughout the season.

I want reporters to ask Fultz a direct question and ask if he's hurt and if he's hurt how much pain he's in. These reporters suck. They can't even ask good questions. How hard is it to ask direct questions about his shot and shoulder and everything. He should be bombarded with questions only about his form and his shoulder.

At the time of the draft I was absolutely fine with us taking DSJ assuming we stayed at 3. His potential has always been super high.

spikeslovechild wrote:It's sort of weird the decision has been made that Fultz can't shoot when he hasn't even really taken a 3PT attempt and most of his shots were drives to the rim.

Fultz also says the reason for this along with his ugly ft shot is the shoulder injury. Maybe, we should wait until he is healthy before writing him off and saying we should have drafted this or that player. It's not like he has a broken shot like Fox and Ball.

Who has decided that he can’t shoot? He is an awesome shooter, and always has been.


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Unbreakable99 wrote:I want reporters to ask Fultz a direct question and ask if he's hurt and if he's hurt how much pain he's in. These reporters suck. They can't even ask good questions. How hard is it to ask direct questions about his shot and shoulder and everything. He should be bombarded with questions only about his form and his shoulder.

I think that the reporters are more concerned with being able to write paint by numbers columns, than actually getting information that hey don’t have.

I also think that they don’t want to piss off the people they are interviewing so they don’t want to ask them uncomfortable questions.


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have they done an MRI on his shoulder>????

like WTF, if it hurts enough that he has to change his shot to be able to shoot, then something is MASSIVELY WRONG

how are we being this incompetent AGAIN?

are we going to lose another 1st round pick to injury AGAIN!?!?!?

KrazySixersD wrote:have they done an MRI on his shoulder>????

like WTF, if it hurts enough that he has to change his shot to be able to shoot, then something is MASSIVELY WRONG

how are we being this incompetent AGAIN?

are we going to lose another 1st round pick to injury AGAIN!?!?!?

viewtopic.php?f=26&t=1621550#start_here

Just want to point out the first three pages of this game thread where many were calling his toughness into question.

BTW, I don't think this injury was during the preseason. He shot like that in the exhibition game. I'd sit him for as long as his shoulder needs it.

why do we have no info on an MRI?

could be an optics thing sadly. It would be a bad look for another rookie to be shelved to start the year especially with it being on national TV. I mean that could have been an explanation for Embiid playing that Houston game last year, no?

this is all baseless conjecture but honestly the FO doesn't have the best rep IMO.

LloydFree wrote: I do think some of the board's Dennis Smith love happened in hindsight, but it didn't start in Summer league. It started right after the college season, once guys started going through the stats and realized Dennis Smirth's numbers were comparable to Fultz and Ball..

Just to add to that, many of us who watched games/extended clips on the draft sub-forum (not the Sixers one) had DSJ consistently in the top 4 or 5 guys starting from the midpoint of the NCAA season. I'll take credit for this because I remember having to wage an annoying fight to defend it--a handful of us made pretty strong cases that there was really no reason to exclude DSJ from that top tier and that his question marks (health, attitude, inconsistency) weren't any more serious than those of players like Ball who the draft media was more forgiving of. I don't think too too many of us ended up having him our #1 (he ended the season pretty weakly) but we talked about him as obviously top 5, and right in the mix with the other guys, for most of the season.

(EDIT: Me from March: "I see him more and more as basically equal with Fultz and don't quite get why the hype hasn't been there. People seem so sold on Fultz when he's had a similar season to DSJ and when he has as many causes for concern. DSJ's size worries me but the explosiveness seems to make up for it. The attitude stuff seems overblown at this point (though I guess Fultz's apparent humility is a bonus for his stock). Curious to see if perceptions change once people aren't reading headlines any more and are just looking at the tape and trying to project how well these folks will do at the next level.")