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Sixers acquire Tobias Harris

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Re: Sixers acquire Tobias Harris 

Post#641 » by Ben Simmons » Thu Feb 7, 2019 2:43 pm

:nod:
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Re: Sixers acquire Tobias Harris 

Post#642 » by SixthStreet » Thu Feb 7, 2019 2:48 pm

John Wall, injuries and personality conflicts aside, is (was?) a damn good PG. I think Washington coaching staff and Wall did a great job optimizing Porter's shot chart and usage. I think of him as a productive sheltered 3rd liner in hockey who's numbers look good because he gets a high percentage of offensive zone draws and plays against the opponents weaker lines. Very useful player but limited. I'll take Harris' diverse skill package for the playoffs any day. He's like the third banana on a dominating first line. I don't think Porter helps you that much in the playoffs. If we wanted a guy like that we should have kept RoCo. Dollar spend can't be looked at in a vacuum in linear fashion.
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Re: Sixers acquire Tobias Harris 

Post#643 » by Kobblehead » Thu Feb 7, 2019 2:50 pm

Wilfried wrote:
OleSchool wrote:
PhilasFinest wrote:
I dont see it at all.

Ive always seen Carmelo Anthony in him TBH.


Rich mans jason Tatum


I agree.

I know Celtics fans think that they have a new Paul Pierce or Kobe in Tatum, but I see a lot of similarities between Harris and Tatum.

With Tatum having more defensive potential.

I see a rich man's Jabari Parker.

Tatum is more like Klay Thompson to me. He plays defense, and he'll carry significantly less weight than the Tobias Harris/Carmelo Anthony/Jabari Parker jumbo wings.
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Re: Sixers acquire Tobias Harris 

Post#644 » by Kobblehead » Thu Feb 7, 2019 2:55 pm

76ciology wrote:Who’s better between Tobias Harris and Otto Porter? Porter is an analytics darling

Tobias Harris by a large margin, IMO. I don't even think they're in the same tier as players. I think offensive stars are way more impactful than 3&D role players.
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Re: Sixers acquire Tobias Harris 

Post#645 » by Kobblehead » Thu Feb 7, 2019 3:09 pm

SixthStreet wrote:John Wall, injuries and personality conflicts aside, is (was?) a damn good PG. I think Washington coaching staff and Wall did a great job optimizing Porter's shot chart and usage. I think of him as a productive sheltered 3rd liner in hockey who's numbers look good because he gets a high percentage of offensive zone draws and plays against the opponents weaker lines. Very useful player but limited. I'll take Harris' diverse skill package for the playoffs any day. He's like the third banana on a dominating first line. I don't think Porter helps you that much in the playoffs. If we wanted a guy like that we should have kept RoCo. Dollar spend can't be looked at in a vacuum in linear fashion.

He doesn't. In 31 career playoff games, he's been a wallflower with little to no production. Which is what Covington was reduced to for us in the playoffs last year.

There's only so much these limited guys can do in games that matter when everyone on the other team is locked in and guys are forced to put the ball on the floor and make plays.
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Re: Sixers acquire Tobias Harris 

Post#646 » by aHealthy3 » Thu Feb 7, 2019 3:14 pm

What's really concerning is that this is pretty much it for us. Say Butler leaves this summer, we use the 3rd max slot on Tobias and pay Ben, that's it. Capped out with no assets left, game over. I'd be okay with Tobias on the third max if we still had assets left to get someone else. But now we've pretty much totally capped our upside. Tobias is a nice player, but he's complementary. He's not good enough to cost all our assets and take up the 3rd max slot, someone like Beal would be better served for that.

Unless he makes significant strides, which I don't see how he will because he's already shooting the ball about as well as possible, there is a potential fatal downside to this move.
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Re: Sixers acquire Tobias Harris 

Post#647 » by Ben Simmons » Thu Feb 7, 2019 3:24 pm

aHealthy3 wrote:What's really concerning is that this is pretty much it for us. Say Butler leaves this summer, we use the 3rd max slot on Tobias and pay Ben, that's it. Capped out with no assets left, game over. I'd be okay with Tobias on the third max if we still had assets left to get someone else. But now we've pretty much totally capped our upside. Tobias is a nice player, but he's complementary. He's not good enough to cost all our assets and take up the 3rd max slot, someone like Beal would be better served for that.

Unless he makes significant strides, which I don't see how he will because he's already shooting the ball about as well as possible, there is a potential fatal downside to this move.

i think the current line-up can beat Golden State in a best-of-7 series, so i like having Tobias :nod:
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Re: Sixers acquire Tobias Harris 

Post#648 » by BullyKing » Thu Feb 7, 2019 3:27 pm

aHealthy3 wrote:What's really concerning is that this is pretty much it for us. Say Butler leaves this summer, we use the 3rd max slot on Tobias and pay Ben, that's it. Capped out with no assets left, game over. I'd be okay with Tobias on the third max if we still had assets left to get someone else. But now we've pretty much totally capped our upside. Tobias is a nice player, but he's complementary. He's not good enough to cost all our assets and take up the 3rd max slot, someone like Beal would be better served for that.

Unless he makes significant strides, which I don't see how he will because he's already shooting the ball about as well as possible, there is a potential fatal downside to this move.


I agree its risky and I've acknowledge the anxiety of having now traded the rest of our war chest. But what you say is not accurate. We could have close to 40 million in cap space your scenario.
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Re: Sixers acquire Tobias Harris 

Post#649 » by Eyeamok » Thu Feb 7, 2019 3:34 pm

If this trade does not work out. Ben and Joel can never say that the 76ers never tried to bring in talent or make trades to help them get to the next level. One of the big reasons reported why AD is leaving New Orleans is because he believes they never did enough to bring in talent and retain talent to help him take this team to the next level.

Also when you bring in talent you send the message to Ben and Joel that you are stars and people come to play with you. Not you leaving to go play with others. That mindset is important to establish as soon as possible. And adding Butler and Harris is a big step in that direction.
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Re: Sixers acquire Tobias Harris 

Post#650 » by aHealthy3 » Thu Feb 7, 2019 3:35 pm

BullyKing wrote:
aHealthy3 wrote:What's really concerning is that this is pretty much it for us. Say Butler leaves this summer, we use the 3rd max slot on Tobias and pay Ben, that's it. Capped out with no assets left, game over. I'd be okay with Tobias on the third max if we still had assets left to get someone else. But now we've pretty much totally capped our upside. Tobias is a nice player, but he's complementary. He's not good enough to cost all our assets and take up the 3rd max slot, someone like Beal would be better served for that.

Unless he makes significant strides, which I don't see how he will because he's already shooting the ball about as well as possible, there is a potential fatal downside to this move.


I agree its risky and I've acknowledge the anxiety of having now traded the rest of our war chest. But what you say is not accurate. We could have close to 40 million in cap space your scenario.


After Ben and Tobias are paid it'll be extremely difficult (basically have 0 other money on the books) if not impossible to sign another max player, no?
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Re: Sixers acquire Tobias Harris 

Post#651 » by sixerswillrule » Thu Feb 7, 2019 3:38 pm

aHealthy3 wrote:
BullyKing wrote:
aHealthy3 wrote:What's really concerning is that this is pretty much it for us. Say Butler leaves this summer, we use the 3rd max slot on Tobias and pay Ben, that's it. Capped out with no assets left, game over. I'd be okay with Tobias on the third max if we still had assets left to get someone else. But now we've pretty much totally capped our upside. Tobias is a nice player, but he's complementary. He's not good enough to cost all our assets and take up the 3rd max slot, someone like Beal would be better served for that.

Unless he makes significant strides, which I don't see how he will because he's already shooting the ball about as well as possible, there is a potential fatal downside to this move.


I agree its risky and I've acknowledge the anxiety of having now traded the rest of our war chest. But what you say is not accurate. We could have close to 40 million in cap space your scenario.


After Ben and Tobias are paid it'll be extremely difficult (basically have 0 other money on the books) if not impossible to sign another max player, no?


Ben's contact kicks in 2020.
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Re: Sixers acquire Tobias Harris 

Post#652 » by Wilfried » Thu Feb 7, 2019 3:40 pm

I thought, if Butler walked, there would be around 37 million in cap to use?

Ben's new contract kicks in, summer 2020, no? So now worries this summer and no reason to think, if Butler walks, that we cannot find other pieces.
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Re: Sixers acquire Tobias Harris 

Post#653 » by hookshot199 » Thu Feb 7, 2019 3:42 pm

BullyKing wrote:
aHealthy3 wrote:What's really concerning is that this is pretty much it for us. Say Butler leaves this summer, we use the 3rd max slot on Tobias and pay Ben, that's it. Capped out with no assets left, game over. I'd be okay with Tobias on the third max if we still had assets left to get someone else. But now we've pretty much totally capped our upside. Tobias is a nice player, but he's complementary. He's not good enough to cost all our assets and take up the 3rd max slot, someone like Beal would be better served for that.

Unless he makes significant strides, which I don't see how he will because he's already shooting the ball about as well as possible, there is a potential fatal downside to this move.


I agree its risky and I've acknowledge the anxiety of having now traded the rest of our war chest. But what you say is not accurate. We could have close to 40 million in cap space your scenario.


And we do have the Chicago 34 pick and, still untapped, Zhaire Smith. I assume he buys out and stretches Fultz by the end of June, so I don't know if that adds to the 40 mil you mention.
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Re: Sixers acquire Tobias Harris 

Post#654 » by aHealthy3 » Thu Feb 7, 2019 3:43 pm

Even then, we've limited our options of acquiring a star to only FA, and free agents haven't proven extremely keen on coming here. So we'll have one desperation swing at KD/Kyrie/Kawhi this summer after Jimmy leaves, none of them come, no assets left to trade for a star, Ben's max kicks in next summer, gg.
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Re: Sixers acquire Tobias Harris 

Post#655 » by Wilfried » Thu Feb 7, 2019 3:48 pm

aHealthy3 wrote:Even then, we've limited our options of acquiring a star to only FA, and free agents haven't proven extremely keen on coming here. So we'll have one desperation swing at KD/Kyrie/Kawhi this summer after Jimmy leaves, none of them come, no assets left to trade for a star, Ben's max kicks in next summer, gg.


I think you should start to realize, that we don't have a lot of appeal to the big time FA's.
Especially not when teams like New York, the Lakers, Clippers and Brooklyn all have the cap space too.

Think the Anthony Davis-saga should be a wake-up call. Why should he want to be traded to New York (as on his list)??
Because he knows they are adding another one (or 2?) this summer. Otherwise, it would be insane to go there now.

Elton got it and decided to trade for players before being left with some picks in the end (like, which would be funny, Ainge could see himself end up with). Nothing about having picks and not using them.

Apparently, Vlade got it too (trade for Barnes and sacrificing cap space this summer).
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Re: Sixers acquire Tobias Harris 

Post#656 » by phifans » Thu Feb 7, 2019 3:48 pm

aHealthy3 wrote:Even then, we've limited our options of acquiring a star to only FA, and free agents haven't proven extremely keen on coming here. So we'll have one desperation swing at KD/Kyrie/Kawhi this summer after Jimmy leaves, none of them come, no assets left to trade for a star, Ben's max kicks in next summer, gg.


I dont think u can get any better star players than Butler and Harris for what we have given up ...
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Re: Sixers acquire Tobias Harris 

Post#657 » by aHealthy3 » Thu Feb 7, 2019 3:51 pm

Wilfried wrote:
aHealthy3 wrote:Even then, we've limited our options of acquiring a star to only FA, and free agents haven't proven extremely keen on coming here. So we'll have one desperation swing at KD/Kyrie/Kawhi this summer after Jimmy leaves, none of them come, no assets left to trade for a star, Ben's max kicks in next summer, gg.


I think you should start to realize, that we don't have a lot of appeal to the big time FA's.
Especially not when teams like New York, the Lakers, Clippers and Brooklyn all have the cap space too.

Think the Anthony Davis-saga should be a wake-up call. Why should he want to be traded to New York (as on his list)??
Because he knows they are adding another one (or 2?) this summer. Otherwise, it would be insane to go there now.

Elton got it and decided to trade for players before being left with some picks in the end (like, which would be funny, Ainge could see himself end up with). Nothing about having picks and not using them.

Apparently, Vlade got it too (trade for Barnes and sacrificing cap space this summer).


I'm aware of this. That's why I would advocate holding onto the assets for a star to become available next year, they always do. Now if Jimmy leaves, our only option is FA and as you said, that isn't fruitful for us. I don't think Tobias was worth going all in on.
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Re: Sixers acquire Tobias Harris 

Post#658 » by SixthStreet » Thu Feb 7, 2019 3:52 pm

Disgruntled stars get traded often and not always to teams with cap space. It's a defeatist attitude to think we'll never get to chase another star without capspace. Opportunities always come up. You have to keep finding value around the fringes so you have stuff to trade. That's why I feel this general dismissive attitude to draft picks around the fanbase is dangerous. Young cheap pieces were how Toronto filled out the trade around DeRozan for Kawhi. Same goes for the Rockets and Chris Paul. Neither team had cap.

We now have to keep hitting our draft picks and signing role players to value contracts that can be moved for positive value if needed. A lot of good teams do the former and Houston is the king of the latter.

Doing this consistently is hard but possible and I hope Brand and Co are up to the task.
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Re: Sixers acquire Tobias Harris 

Post#659 » by aHealthy3 » Thu Feb 7, 2019 3:54 pm

SixthStreet wrote:Disgruntled stars get traded often and not always to teams with cap space. It's a defeatist attitude to think we'll never get to chase another star without capspace. Opportunities always come up. You have to keep finding value around the fringes so you have stuff to trade. That's why I feel this general dismissive attitude to draft picks around the fanbase is dangerous. Young cheap pieces were how Toronto filled out the trade around DeRozan for Kawhi. Same goes for the Rockets and Chris Paul. Neither team had cap.

We now have to keep hitting our draft picks and signing role players to value contracts that can be moved for positive value if needed. A lot of good teams do the former and Houston is the king of the latter.

Doing this consistently is hard but possible and I hope Brand and Co are up to the task.


How do you suggest doing that when we just traded the vast majority of our draft capital for the next 3 years?
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Re: Sixers acquire Tobias Harris 

Post#660 » by Wilfried » Thu Feb 7, 2019 3:59 pm

aHealthy3 wrote:
Wilfried wrote:
aHealthy3 wrote:Even then, we've limited our options of acquiring a star to only FA, and free agents haven't proven extremely keen on coming here. So we'll have one desperation swing at KD/Kyrie/Kawhi this summer after Jimmy leaves, none of them come, no assets left to trade for a star, Ben's max kicks in next summer, gg.


I think you should start to realize, that we don't have a lot of appeal to the big time FA's.
Especially not when teams like New York, the Lakers, Clippers and Brooklyn all have the cap space too.

Think the Anthony Davis-saga should be a wake-up call. Why should he want to be traded to New York (as on his list)??
Because he knows they are adding another one (or 2?) this summer. Otherwise, it would be insane to go there now.

Elton got it and decided to trade for players before being left with some picks in the end (like, which would be funny, Ainge could see himself end up with). Nothing about having picks and not using them.

Apparently, Vlade got it too (trade for Barnes and sacrificing cap space this summer).


I'm aware of this. That's why I would advocate holding onto the assets for a star to become available next year, they always do. Now if Jimmy leaves, our only option is FA and as you said, that isn't fruitful for us. I don't think Tobias was worth going all in on.


1) What star will become available? What if there's no star available? We're happy we have Shamet and our 1st rounder 2020 around?
2) Are those assets enough than? (I know people think we gave up the house and everything around, but tbf: Shamet, Muscala, Chandler, 2 2nd's, 2 1st's (1 late), Covington and Saric -> Butler, Patton, Harris, Scott, Boban. I feel that this was a big OK. Only real asset there was the MIA pick and who knows, that can probably become a player worse than Mike Scott too for what we know)
3) Anthony Davis is available. Probably top 5 player in this league. He's not interested in Philly.

That Miami pick looks like a great asset, but sometimes it's better to deal it before it shows it's value. Think the Celtics could have had a lot more value for the Kings' pick last summer than they will now.

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