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Welcome Tobias Harris

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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#401 » by VDT » Thu Aug 8, 2019 8:06 pm

I think Brown is going to run some pnr for Harris but i think that is more something to do here and there, than a way to run the offense, primarily because of his limitations as a main ball handler. Secondarily because it would put Embiid and Simmons in auxiliary roles which is not something the Sixers want to do.

In the end i think it will depend on how dominant Embiid will be on the offensive end during the playoffs. If he can be healthy and dominant the Sixers overall talent and defense can carry them to a title. If not the Sixers still wouldnt be far behind other teams imo ( assuming Horford doesnt decline much) but they would need to get more from Simmons.
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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#402 » by HotelVitale » Fri Aug 9, 2019 10:27 pm

VDT wrote:I think Brown is going to run some pnr for Harris but i think that is more something to do here and there, than a way to run the offense, primarily because of his limitations as a main ball handler. Secondarily because it would put Embiid and Simmons in auxiliary roles which is not something the Sixers want to do. In the end i think it will depend on how dominant Embiid will be on the offensive end during the playoffs. If he can be healthy and dominant the Sixers overall talent and defense can carry them to a title. If not the Sixers still wouldnt be far behind other teams imo ( assuming Horford doesnt decline much) but they would need to get more from Simmons.

Definitely don't think that's a good bet to stake the franchise on. We by no means should count on getting significantly more from Simmons on offense against a good defense, expecting more than minor and gradual improvement is plainly a bad idea at this point. Embiid has more potential to make that leap but he wasn't just limited by nagging injuries the last couple years; the Celts and Raptors showed that if a defense puts a solid, strong defender and swarms him in a disciplined way (not doubling immediately but rather when he makes his move) his handle is too sloppy, decision-making too shaky, and his general offensive arsenal too random for him to react well. He can improve all that and likely will to an extent, but if I'm betting at even odds I would not put $ on Embiid becoming a consistent go-to guy down the stretch against good defenses this season.

To my eyes Harris in the pn'r with Horford or Embiid has the most potential to be a consistent go-to creation set this season, hence we should invest heavily in it. Obviously doesn't mean giving him a Harden-like role where 80% of plays are running through him but it should be something we're running a lot of against the other teams' best units and in the home stretch of games. I don't know if Harris can improve his decision-making and reaction speed but he already does most of what you want him to and just needs to do it better and quicker. I also think it can be our best way of salvaging the many broken plays we end up with (Embiid posts that go bad or the myriad DHOs that go nowhere), as long as we have at least 8-10 seconds left on the clock. I don't love Harris but just really don't want to see us spending 2/3 of the season trying out a bunch of weird things for Simmons that all of us know aren't going to work when it really matters, or running Embiid sets that work then and won't against playoff defenses.
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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#403 » by HotelVitale » Fri Aug 9, 2019 10:46 pm

LloydFree wrote:
76ciology wrote:Sixershoops posted something that got me thinking.. What is Tobias Harris ceiling?
If you ask me, i find him to have a similar development curve like Bradley Beal or CJ. Where their game took a step up after the default playmaker took an absence. 3 level scorers, combo players with average ball skills. Eventually learning how to read the defense and be playmakers. That and Harris needs to learn how to be a closer. He can be that with a more refined skillset and having the experience to pace himself like how Jimmy does it.
The 76ers were 53-29 and lost in the 2nd round in 17/18. The 76ers were 51-31 and lost in the 2nd round in 18/19. Who was the 76ers "closer" in 17/18?


Probably skewed memory cuz of how things ended but it seemed like down the stretch and in the PO the closing moves were Redick/Belinelli/Cov firing lunging 28 ft fadeaways or Embiid doing some awkward move that he didn't feel very good about.
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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#404 » by LloydFree » Sat Aug 10, 2019 1:29 am

HotelVitale wrote:
LloydFree wrote:
76ciology wrote:Sixershoops posted something that got me thinking.. What is Tobias Harris ceiling?
If you ask me, i find him to have a similar development curve like Bradley Beal or CJ. Where their game took a step up after the default playmaker took an absence. 3 level scorers, combo players with average ball skills. Eventually learning how to read the defense and be playmakers. That and Harris needs to learn how to be a closer. He can be that with a more refined skillset and having the experience to pace himself like how Jimmy does it.
The 76ers were 53-29 and lost in the 2nd round in 17/18. The 76ers were 51-31 and lost in the 2nd round in 18/19. Who was the 76ers "closer" in 17/18?


Probably skewed memory cuz of how things ended but it seemed like down the stretch and in the PO the closing moves were Redick/Belinelli/Cov firing lunging 28 ft fadeaways or Embiid doing some awkward move that he didn't feel very good about.

That's the point. There was no "closer" and that team accomplished just as much as this past year's team with this so called "closer".

It absolutely fascinates me that someone could hand-wring over whether Tobias Harris can close games out like Jimmy Butler, right after a playoffs where Butler was horrible against the Nets, and then in game 7 against the Raptors the so called "closer" shot 5-14, 1-6 from 3, and had one (1) assist, while supposedly playing a superior PG than Ben Simmons. Unbelievable.
Fischella wrote:I think none of you guys that are pro-Embiid no how basketball works today.. is way easier to win it all with Omer Asik than Olajuwon.
Actually if you ask me which Center I want for my perfect championship caliber team, I will chose Asik hands down
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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#405 » by VDT » Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:35 am

HotelVitale wrote:
VDT wrote:I think Brown is going to run some pnr for Harris but i think that is more something to do here and there, than a way to run the offense, primarily because of his limitations as a main ball handler. Secondarily because it would put Embiid and Simmons in auxiliary roles which is not something the Sixers want to do. In the end i think it will depend on how dominant Embiid will be on the offensive end during the playoffs. If he can be healthy and dominant the Sixers overall talent and defense can carry them to a title. If not the Sixers still wouldnt be far behind other teams imo ( assuming Horford doesnt decline much) but they would need to get more from Simmons.

Definitely don't think that's a good bet to stake the franchise on. We by no means should count on getting significantly more from Simmons on offense against a good defense, expecting more than minor and gradual improvement is plainly a bad idea at this point. Embiid has more potential to make that leap but he wasn't just limited by nagging injuries the last couple years; the Celts and Raptors showed that if a defense puts a solid, strong defender and swarms him in a disciplined way (not doubling immediately but rather when he makes his move) his handle is too sloppy, decision-making too shaky, and his general offensive arsenal too random for him to react well. He can improve all that and likely will to an extent, but if I'm betting at even odds I would not put $ on Embiid becoming a consistent go-to guy down the stretch against good defenses this season.

To my eyes Harris in the pn'r with Horford or Embiid has the most potential to be a consistent go-to creation set this season, hence we should invest heavily in it. Obviously doesn't mean giving him a Harden-like role where 80% of plays are running through him but it should be something we're running a lot of against the other teams' best units and in the home stretch of games. I don't know if Harris can improve his decision-making and reaction speed but he already does most of what you want him to and just needs to do it better and quicker. I also think it can be our best way of salvaging the many broken plays we end up with (Embiid posts that go bad or the myriad DHOs that go nowhere), as long as we have at least 8-10 seconds left on the clock. I don't love Harris but just really don't want to see us spending 2/3 of the season trying out a bunch of weird things for Simmons that all of us know aren't going to work when it really matters, or running Embiid sets that work then and won't against playoff defenses.


I dont expect Simmons to suddenly become a good shooter or become an offensive juggernaut. But if he can score a couple of baskets in transition like Giannis and becomes a little better driver it will go a long way. Incremental improvements on things that he has already shown that he can do to a certain degree.

With Embiid i am not sure what to think. He is, i think, behind the curve, in terms if playoff performance, compared to centers that were able to lead their teams to a title. On the other hand he has been unlucky in having to play both years with an injury and out of shape against possibly the best opponents he could face and with a suboptimal team structure. He is certainly lacking in some skills, particularly playing with his back to the basket but i am still not sure he is the type of player that underperforms in the playoffs. This year he had a good series against the Nets and although he was not good offensively against Gasol, he was still better compared to the regular season despite his knee issues and being ill for half of the series. With Embiid i think his lack of experience and training time shows at times because he doesnt have a go to move and relies sometimes on gimmicks to score his points. It is understandable given the circumstances and hopefully he will improve.

With Harris my issue is that he has suspect handles, hasnt really shown much playmaking ability and he is not really athletic and explosive. That might be ok if you use him in the pnr here and there but anything more than and the teams will gameplan for him and i am not sure if he can still be successful in that case. They will put him in different situations and i am not sure he has the skills to be succesful. Like if they double him does he have the court vision to hit the open man? If he is switched to their big, is he athletic enough to exploit him. If he faces ball pressure will he be able to keep his dribble? I am not so sure which is why it feels like a desperation move, particularly with two subpar 3 point shooters in Embiid and Simmons, on the court. Harris is 27, around the age that players peak, and he has never shown, even remotely, the ability to anchor the offense of a title team. Also putting Embiid and especially Simmons offball doesnt make sense stylistically, since they are not good off ball players, and in terms of team chemistry.
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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#406 » by Kobblehead » Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:55 pm

If we intend to continue to run our crunchtime playoff offense through Joel Embiid, we'll fair no better than Patrick Ewing and the Knicks of the 90s.

Tobias Harris has to be the closer on this team. If they don't think he has the shake to isolate from the perimeter, then continuously set screens for him.
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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#407 » by NoDopeOnSundays » Yesterday 8:34 am

Kobblehead wrote:If we intend to continue to run our crunchtime playoff offense through Joel Embiid, we'll fair no better than Patrick Ewing and the Knicks of the 90s.

Tobias Harris has to be the closer on this team. If they don't think he has the shake to isolate from the perimeter, then continuously set screens for him.



The Knicks would have won a title if Pat could make a layup, or if he played with anyone as talented as Simmons/Harris instead of Ohn Starks (J not included).


The Sixers can run their crunchtime offense through Embiid if he gets a go to move, specifically the Hakeem or Dirk fade away, not sure why he doesn't go to post fades more often since it seems like he makes them whenever he takes them. I blame Drew Hanlen, a big as talented as Embiid should not be working out with a guard skills coach, if he had someone teaching him that was actually a scoring big they'd tell him to get a jump hook and a post fade.
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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#408 » by LloydFree » Yesterday 12:02 pm

NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
Kobblehead wrote:If we intend to continue to run our crunchtime playoff offense through Joel Embiid, we'll fair no better than Patrick Ewing and the Knicks of the 90s.

Tobias Harris has to be the closer on this team. If they don't think he has the shake to isolate from the perimeter, then continuously set screens for him.



The Knicks would have won a title if Pat could make a layup, or if he played with anyone as talented as Simmons/Harris instead of Ohn Starks (J not included).


The Sixers can run their crunchtime offense through Embiid if he gets a go to move, specifically the Hakeem or Dirk fade away, not sure why he doesn't go to post fades more often since it seems like he makes them whenever he takes them. I blame Drew Hanlen, a big as talented as Embiid should not be working out with a guard skills coach, if he had someone teaching him that was actually a scoring big they'd tell him to get a jump hook and a post fade.

This is exactly right. This is something that doesn't get any conversation, because people aren't accustomed to seeing that kind of offense today. One of the reasons I thought Embiid was one of the best big men prospects I'd seen in over a decade was how easily he hit both left and right handed hooks as a Freshman (along with how he ran the floor and his defensive instincts). If Embiid concentrated on perfecting low post hooks with either hand and finding the double team, out of that action, that would solve their end-game offense.
Fischella wrote:I think none of you guys that are pro-Embiid no how basketball works today.. is way easier to win it all with Omer Asik than Olajuwon.
Actually if you ask me which Center I want for my perfect championship caliber team, I will chose Asik hands down
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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#409 » by Kobblehead » Yesterday 1:58 pm

NoDopeOnSundays wrote:The Knicks would have won a title if Pat could make a layup, or if he played with anyone as talented as Simmons/Harris instead of Ohn Starks (J not included).


If he played with someone more talented than John Starks, he wouldn't be closing games and maybe they would have won the title. Ironically enough, the closest Ewing got to a title was when he went up against the Hakeem-centric Houston Rockets and John Starks was the 3rd best player in the series.
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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#410 » by VDT » Yesterday 2:23 pm

People are getting too fixated with having a "closer". What you need is someone to anchor the offense in the playoffs. That's your closer, maybe with the exception of someone that is bad in ft. Even then if i remember correctly Shaq led the Lakers in 2000 in 4th quarter scoring. You dont to have a Jordan type to win the title. The only advantage of a wing would be if ypu need a bucket in the last 5-6 seconds. Which imo is not huge and you will have to live with that disadvantage.

The Knicks didnt win because Ewing was not a reliable offensive player in the playoffs like Hakeem not because they lacked a closer. The same reason the Spurs couldnt win before Duncan.
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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#411 » by Kobblehead » Yesterday 2:40 pm

VDT wrote:People are getting too fixated with having a "closer". What you need is someone to anchor the offense in the playoffs. That's your closer, maybe with the exception of someone that is bad in ft. Even then if i remember correctly Shaq led the Lakers in 2000 in 4th quarter scoring. You dont to have a Jordan type to win the title. The only advantage of a wing would be if ypu need a bucket in the last 5-6 seconds. Which imo is not huge and you will have to live with that disadvantage.

The Knicks didnt win because Ewing was not a reliable offensive player in the playoffs like Hakeem not because they lacked a closer. The same reason the Spurs couldnt win before Duncan.

Disagree vehemently. You need a scorer on the ball that can drive an offense. Which is what Shaq had at every stop of his career. Which is what Duncan had in San Antonio.

Hakeem in 1994 is possibly the only example of a team winning a championship running everything through the post. And if Jordan wasn't quasi-suspended, that basic Rockets team would have likely gotten swept. They were legitimized the following year when they got Drexler and actually resembled a worthy all-time champion, but that first one isn't impressive.
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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#412 » by VDT » Yesterday 2:53 pm

Who did the Spurs have in 2003? Rookie Ginobili and 20 years old Parker? If that's your benchmark then most teams have that. Even Kobe in 2000 is not some superstar. Dirk in 2011 also won without some star wing or guard.

Conversely when did a wing or guard win by himself? If anything big guys are the ones that have been able to win with less help in the NBA.
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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#413 » by Kobblehead » Yesterday 3:10 pm

You've successfully identified the exceptions. A way higher percentage of Shaq and Tim's championships were still driven by star ball handlers.

It's hard for anybody to win a championship by himself, but there have been plenty of wing tandems or guard-wing tandems that have won a championship with no meaningful contributions from a big. Because ball handlers have such a direct influence in regards to impact. Which is why, even if you have a star bigman, you're more likely to win a championship if you have a star ball handler that can drive the offense in the halfcourt in crunchtime. Which is why we need Tobias Harris to be Melo-lite if we want to maximize our chances.
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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#414 » by VDT » Yesterday 5:51 pm

Well of course having a star ball handler is better than not having one. Also having champions where none of the two best players is a big is expected. After all bigs are only two positions out of the five. Having said that only the Bulls i think were built like that and the champions un the last decade or so where bigs were basically roleplayers.

Looking back center sized and wing sized players have won the vast majority of titles. And from these two the bigs have consistently won with less. If you look at most top 10 goat list centers are well overrepresented.

It is just in the 2010s when Noah and Deandre were all nba and players like Love and Cousins were considered elite offensive bigs that people started questioning whether a big could lead a team to a title. Now that there is an influx of talented bigs this notion will go away in the coming years.
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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#415 » by Don » 43 minutes ago

LloydFree wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
Kobblehead wrote:If we intend to continue to run our crunchtime playoff offense through Joel Embiid, we'll fair no better than Patrick Ewing and the Knicks of the 90s.

Tobias Harris has to be the closer on this team. If they don't think he has the shake to isolate from the perimeter, then continuously set screens for him.



The Knicks would have won a title if Pat could make a layup, or if he played with anyone as talented as Simmons/Harris instead of Ohn Starks (J not included).


The Sixers can run their crunchtime offense through Embiid if he gets a go to move, specifically the Hakeem or Dirk fade away, not sure why he doesn't go to post fades more often since it seems like he makes them whenever he takes them. I blame Drew Hanlen, a big as talented as Embiid should not be working out with a guard skills coach, if he had someone teaching him that was actually a scoring big they'd tell him to get a jump hook and a post fade.

This is exactly right. This is something that doesn't get any conversation, because people aren't accustomed to seeing that kind of offense today. One of the reasons I thought Embiid was one of the best big men prospects I'd seen in over a decade was how easily he hit both left and right handed hooks as a Freshman (along with how he ran the floor and his defensive instincts). If Embiid concentrated on perfecting low post hooks with either hand and finding the double team, out of that action, that would solve their end-game offense.
Truth. He needs to focus on this portion of his game instead dribbling from the top of the key and taking unnecessary shots from the perimeter.

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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#416 » by Kobblehead » 20 minutes ago

VDT wrote:Well of course having a star ball handler is better than not having one. Also having champions where none of the two best players is a big is expected. After all bigs are only two positions out of the five. Having said that only the Bulls i think were built like that and the champions un the last decade or so where bigs were basically roleplayers.

Dude, it's been the last 40 years of NBA basketball. You realize that teams that win championships running their offense through a big is like in the 1%, right?

So banking on us being able to win a championship with Embiid as our #1 option and crunchtime closer is basically praying to be an ultra rare exception.

Tobias Harris absolutely has to be granted (and successful in) a closing role if we realistically hope to win a championship.

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