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Welcome Tobias Harris

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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#301 » by youngcrev » Thu May 23, 2019 2:39 pm

sixers4real wrote:People who want to give Tobias and Jimmy less then 5-year max, have to understand that they will probably quit if we don’t. Basically our only advantage for Butler and Harris is giving them more money which is kinda loyalty. If we offer to either of them 4-year max, I say the both are gone. And couple of million less then max for Tobias really won’t worth the risk of him leaving.
If we try’s to lowball them, and they leave, we will be left with Embiid, Bolden, Smith, Simmons and 70MIL to spend to fill the need for 11 players with no shot at Kawhi, KD, Klay, Kyrie, Middleton.

Elton Brand and Josh Harris said it numbers of times that they will everything to bring this city a championship. Championships are very hard to get. Very hard. You have to pay this guys to have a chance of winning a title in the next 5 years.


They can also offer 8% raises rather than 5%, so the 5th year's not the only advantage. Familiarity and a chance to compete to titles is also an advantage that most teams can't offer.

Offering the same amount that other teams can offer is not low balling Tobias. In fact, it's an offer that's more than his actual value on the court. I'm comfortable with overpaying due to his fit and the lack of other options, but ideally it's kept to the least harmful amount possible.
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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#302 » by Sixerscan » Thu May 23, 2019 2:45 pm

I think the only way Jimmy does less than 5/190 is if he is convinced that taking less allows the team to do something with the money that will improve his title chances. He’s not gonna take less just to save Josh Harris some money.

Tobias there should be some room for negotiation.
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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#303 » by mhunt » Thu May 23, 2019 2:51 pm

Toby should be a perfect fit around Embiid & Simmons. He can knock down 3's to help open up the floor & create on his own at times. With that plus what they gave up to get him, I'd be shocked if they didn't keep him. IMO, the trade was made with the understanding that they'd keep him.
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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#304 » by sixers4real » Thu May 23, 2019 3:51 pm

Sixerscan wrote:
sixers4real wrote:People who want to give Tobias and Jimmy less then 5-year max, have to understand that they will probably quit if we don’t. Basically our only advantage for Butler and Harris is giving them more money which is kinda loyalty. If we offer to either of them 4-year max, I say the both are gone. And couple of million less then max for Tobias really won’t worth the risk of him leaving.
If we try’s to lowball them, and they leave, we will be left with Embiid, Bolden, Smith, Simmons and 70MIL to spend to fill the need for 11 players with no shot at Kawhi, KD, Klay, Kyrie, Middleton.

Elton Brand and Josh Harris said it numbers of times that they will everything to bring this city a championship. Championships are very hard to get. Very hard. You have to pay this guys to have a chance of winning a title in the next 5 years.


People don’t really believe that all the Sixers have to offer is money, right? It’s a great market that led the league in attendance and could compete for a title for years.

This idea that all else equal Harris would rather go be Donavan Mitchell’s sidekick on the Jazz seems crazy...

If our offer is just a little better then Brooklyn's I would guess he's going there. So I would not want to risk that.
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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#305 » by TTP » Thu May 23, 2019 3:59 pm

mhunt wrote:Toby should be a perfect fit around Embiid & Simmons. He can knock down 3's to help open up the floor & create on his own at times. With that plus what they gave up to get him, I'd be shocked if they didn't keep him. IMO, the trade was made with the understanding that they'd keep him.


I don't understand why everyone keeps saying he's a perfect fit. It's great that he can create his own shot, but when you already have 3 ball dominant players in Embiid, Butler, and Simmons, you don't get as much value out of the creation ability of your 4th player. We need his shooting for sure, but a perfect fit would be a 2-way player that functions well off-ball and can defend. Tobias is an average to below average defender, which is a problem when we already have one massive defensive liability on the floor in Redick. An elite 3 and D player is a better fit around 3 ball dominant stars.

A team that can allow Harris to be one of the top 2 guys on offense gets a lot more out of Harris' skillset.
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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#306 » by mhunt » Thu May 23, 2019 4:22 pm

He's not a perfect player but he is a good fit with his shot making ability & ability to play both off the ball & with the ball in his hands, IMO. Sure, if he were also a lock down defender and rim protector, that would be great. A guy like that would be a franchise player & they don't become available very often.
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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#307 » by hookshot199 » Thu May 23, 2019 4:23 pm

sixers4real wrote:People who want to give Tobias and Jimmy less then 5-year max, have to understand that they will probably quit if we don’t. Basically our only advantage for Butler and Harris is giving them more money which is kinda loyalty. If we offer to either of them 4-year max, I say the both are gone. And couple of million less then max for Tobias really won’t worth the risk of him leaving.
If we try’s to lowball them, and they leave, we will be left with Embiid, Bolden, Smith, Simmons and 70MIL to spend to fill the need for 11 players with no shot at Kawhi, KD, Klay, Kyrie, Middleton.

Elton Brand and Josh Harris said it numbers of times that they will everything to bring this city a championship. Championships are very hard to get. Very hard. You have to pay this guys to have a chance of winning a title in the next 5 years.



We can only give one of them a five-year deal. That's the biggest of the problems. We're going to have to choose.
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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#308 » by hookshot199 » Thu May 23, 2019 4:35 pm

TTP wrote:
mhunt wrote:Toby should be a perfect fit around Embiid & Simmons. He can knock down 3's to help open up the floor & create on his own at times. With that plus what they gave up to get him, I'd be shocked if they didn't keep him. IMO, the trade was made with the understanding that they'd keep him.


I don't understand why everyone keeps saying he's a perfect fit. It's great that he can create his own shot, but when you already have 3 ball dominant players in Embiid, Butler, and Simmons, you don't get as much value out of the creation ability of your 4th player. We need his shooting for sure, but a perfect fit would be a 2-way player that functions well off-ball and can defend. Tobias is an average to below average defender, which is a problem when we already have one massive defensive liability on the floor in Redick. An elite 3 and D player is a better fit around 3 ball dominant stars.

A team that can allow Harris to be one of the top 2 guys on offense gets a lot more out of Harris' skillset.


So do you expect Redick to be more than a sixth-man/instant offense guy or occasional starter
depending on who we're playing?

IMO, it should be the other way round. We integrate - and pay - JJ based on what Tobias offers. JJ turns 35
in June.
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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#309 » by sixers4real » Thu May 23, 2019 4:42 pm

hookshot199 wrote:
sixers4real wrote:People who want to give Tobias and Jimmy less then 5-year max, have to understand that they will probably quit if we don’t. Basically our only advantage for Butler and Harris is giving them more money which is kinda loyalty. If we offer to either of them 4-year max, I say the both are gone. And couple of million less then max for Tobias really won’t worth the risk of him leaving.
If we try’s to lowball them, and they leave, we will be left with Embiid, Bolden, Smith, Simmons and 70MIL to spend to fill the need for 11 players with no shot at Kawhi, KD, Klay, Kyrie, Middleton.

Elton Brand and Josh Harris said it numbers of times that they will everything to bring this city a championship. Championships are very hard to get. Very hard. You have to pay this guys to have a chance of winning a title in the next 5 years.



We can only give one of them a five-year deal. That's the biggest of the problems. We're going to have to choose.

Is that really so? Someone on this forum said it is not true.
Bum Adebayo wrote:-Offer Embiid+Simmons for Zion
-Sign Mario Hezonja for the minimum
-Sign Carmelo Anthony for the minimum
You have a generational player plus Butler, while having 2 more productive players.
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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#310 » by Sixerscan » Thu May 23, 2019 4:53 pm

sixers4real wrote:
hookshot199 wrote:
sixers4real wrote:People who want to give Tobias and Jimmy less then 5-year max, have to understand that they will probably quit if we don’t. Basically our only advantage for Butler and Harris is giving them more money which is kinda loyalty. If we offer to either of them 4-year max, I say the both are gone. And couple of million less then max for Tobias really won’t worth the risk of him leaving.
If we try’s to lowball them, and they leave, we will be left with Embiid, Bolden, Smith, Simmons and 70MIL to spend to fill the need for 11 players with no shot at Kawhi, KD, Klay, Kyrie, Middleton.

Elton Brand and Josh Harris said it numbers of times that they will everything to bring this city a championship. Championships are very hard to get. Very hard. You have to pay this guys to have a chance of winning a title in the next 5 years.



We can only give one of them a five-year deal. That's the biggest of the problems. We're going to have to choose.

Is that really so? Someone on this forum said it is not true.


It’s not. They can both get up to 5 year contracts starting at up to 30% of the cap with up to 8% raises each year.

People confuse that with designated rookie extensions, super maxes ect. There’s no tricks with these guys beyond the standard max salaries/raises/years for guys with 7-9 years experience.
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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#311 » by Canadian6ersFan » Thu May 23, 2019 5:00 pm

During negotiations, tell him we ain't trading Boban with you. Boban stays in Philly.

Let's see how Tobi takes the divorce if he goes elsewhere :D
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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#312 » by TTP » Thu May 23, 2019 5:10 pm

hookshot199 wrote:
TTP wrote:
mhunt wrote:Toby should be a perfect fit around Embiid & Simmons. He can knock down 3's to help open up the floor & create on his own at times. With that plus what they gave up to get him, I'd be shocked if they didn't keep him. IMO, the trade was made with the understanding that they'd keep him.


I don't understand why everyone keeps saying he's a perfect fit. It's great that he can create his own shot, but when you already have 3 ball dominant players in Embiid, Butler, and Simmons, you don't get as much value out of the creation ability of your 4th player. We need his shooting for sure, but a perfect fit would be a 2-way player that functions well off-ball and can defend. Tobias is an average to below average defender, which is a problem when we already have one massive defensive liability on the floor in Redick. An elite 3 and D player is a better fit around 3 ball dominant stars.

A team that can allow Harris to be one of the top 2 guys on offense gets a lot more out of Harris' skillset.


So do you expect Redick to be more than a sixth-man/instant offense guy or occasional starter
depending on who we're playing?

IMO, it should be the other way round. We integrate - and pay - JJ based on what Tobias offers. JJ turns 35
in June.


I'd imagine JJ's role next year will be pretty similar to how we've been using him the last two years. He's way too important for our offense. The only way I can see him being supplanted is if someone like Shake or Zhaire makes a ridiculous offensive leap, but even then, we'd take a huge spacing hit on a team that already struggles with spacing with Redick in the lineup.

Regardless, my point has nothing to do with Redick's role. I'm saying that if you assume that Embiid, Simmons, Butler, and Redick are locked into the lineup, the overall net rating is probably higher with a Covington/Porter Jr/PJ Tucker type in that fifth spot than with Harris. A versatile defensive wing that can handle multiple positions without getting exploited while being an above average shooter from deep is a better fit than another ball handler that risks getting exposed on defense.

Harris might be a better player than all of those guys, but he isn't a better fit, and I certainly wouldn't call him a perfect fit. He'd be a perfect fit if we had a lot of role players but lacked ball dominant players.
Saric is a much better 3 point shooter than I expected.
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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#313 » by hookshot199 » Thu May 23, 2019 5:13 pm

sixers4real wrote:
hookshot199 wrote:
sixers4real wrote:People who want to give Tobias and Jimmy less then 5-year max, have to understand that they will probably quit if we don’t. Basically our only advantage for Butler and Harris is giving them more money which is kinda loyalty. If we offer to either of them 4-year max, I say the both are gone. And couple of million less then max for Tobias really won’t worth the risk of him leaving.
If we try’s to lowball them, and they leave, we will be left with Embiid, Bolden, Smith, Simmons and 70MIL to spend to fill the need for 11 players with no shot at Kawhi, KD, Klay, Kyrie, Middleton.

Elton Brand and Josh Harris said it numbers of times that they will everything to bring this city a championship. Championships are very hard to get. Very hard. You have to pay this guys to have a chance of winning a title in the next 5 years.


We can only give one of them a five-year deal. That's the biggest of the problems. We're going to have to choose.

Is that really so? Someone on this forum said it is not true.


I believe this was from a post by Sixerscan a couple of months back:

You are allowed to have two designated rookies and two designated veterans, but only one of each can be acquired by trade. Ben and Jojo are the designated rookies. Butler and Harris could both be designated veterans, but since both were acquired by trade only one can get the five year deal.

I'd rather give it to Harris, even though it's doubtful he lives up to that deal, and just let the chips fall where they may with Jimmy. 3 year max deal, take it or enjoy NY.



And then from the CBA:

There is a limit to the number of designated players a team can have on its roster at a time. A team can have up to two designated rookies (who received a longer rookie scale extension) and up to two designated veterans (who received higher than the 30% maximum salary) at any time. However, only one designated rookie and one designated veteran may have been acquired from another team in a trade.


I haven't checked to see if there are any new stipulations...
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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#314 » by TTP » Thu May 23, 2019 5:17 pm

mhunt wrote:He's not a perfect player but he is a good fit with his shot making ability & ability to play both off the ball & with the ball in his hands, IMO. Sure, if he were also a lock down defender and rim protector, that would be great. A guy like that would be a franchise player & they don't become available very often.


I'm not saying he needs all of those things. I fully understand that a top 30-40 player in the league is going to be lacking in some areas (which is why he isn't a superstar). My point is that there's diminishing returns to ball dominant players, and when you already have a lot of them, you should be willing to sacrifice on-ball abilities for off-ball abilities and defense in your non-franchise players. Tobias doesn't do that and there are other players in that 30-40 range that do that probably could have been had for a similar price or cheaper, especially considering that the ability to create one's shot and function on-ball is one of the most expensive skillsets.

Just taking the categories you listed...on-ball offense, off-ball offense, defense. If you had to choose a good player that only provides in two of those three categories to go with our other 4 starters, the best fit would not be on-ball offense + off-ball offense. It would be off-ball offense + defense, which is why I disagree with anyone that claims Tobias is a perfect fit.

Decent fit sure. He certainly isn't a bad fit, but when you trade good future assets for the ability to offer someone a max or near max contract, I'm not sure that's enough.
Saric is a much better 3 point shooter than I expected.
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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#315 » by Sixerscan » Thu May 23, 2019 5:19 pm

hookshot199 wrote:
sixers4real wrote:
hookshot199 wrote:
We can only give one of them a five-year deal. That's the biggest of the problems. We're going to have to choose.

Is that really so? Someone on this forum said it is not true.


I believe this was from a post by Sixerscan a couple of months back:

You are allowed to have two designated rookies and two designated veterans, but only one of each can be acquired by trade. Ben and Jojo are the designated rookies. Butler and Harris could both be designated veterans, but since both were acquired by trade only one can get the five year deal.

I'd rather give it to Harris, even though it's doubtful he lives up to that deal, and just let the chips fall where they may with Jimmy. 3 year max deal, take it or enjoy NY.



And then from the CBA:

There is a limit to the number of designated players a team can have on its roster at a time. A team can have up to two designated rookies (who received a longer rookie scale extension) and up to two designated veterans (who received higher than the 30% maximum salary) at any time. However, only one designated rookie and one designated veteran may have been acquired from another team in a trade.


I haven't checked to see if there are any new stipulations...

I definitely never said this.

Regardless, Butler and Harris aren’t eligible for designated veteran extensions since, among other reasons, the only team that can offer that is the team that drafted them.

Embiid is not a designated rookie also, he’s just on a normal max contract. Ben won’t be eligible for that either unless he makes an All NBA team next year.
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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#316 » by hookshot199 » Thu May 23, 2019 5:19 pm

TTP wrote:
hookshot199 wrote:
TTP wrote:
I don't understand why everyone keeps saying he's a perfect fit. It's great that he can create his own shot, but when you already have 3 ball dominant players in Embiid, Butler, and Simmons, you don't get as much value out of the creation ability of your 4th player. We need his shooting for sure, but a perfect fit would be a 2-way player that functions well off-ball and can defend. Tobias is an average to below average defender, which is a problem when we already have one massive defensive liability on the floor in Redick. An elite 3 and D player is a better fit around 3 ball dominant stars.

A team that can allow Harris to be one of the top 2 guys on offense gets a lot more out of Harris' skillset.


So do you expect Redick to be more than a sixth-man/instant offense guy or occasional starter
depending on who we're playing?

IMO, it should be the other way round. We integrate - and pay - JJ based on what Tobias offers. JJ turns 35
in June.


I'd imagine JJ's role next year will be pretty similar to how we've been using him the last two years. He's way too important for our offense. The only way I can see him being supplanted is if someone like Shake or Zhaire makes a ridiculous offensive leap, but even then, we'd take a huge spacing hit on a team that already struggles with spacing with Redick in the lineup.

Regardless, my point has nothing to do with Redick's role. I'm saying that if you assume that Embiid, Simmons, Butler, and Redick are locked into the lineup, the overall net rating is probably higher with a Covington/Porter Jr/PJ Tucker type in that fifth spot than with Harris. A versatile defensive wing that can handle multiple positions without getting exploited while being an above average shooter from deep is a better fit than another ball handler that risks getting exposed on defense.

Harris might be a better player than all of those guys, but he isn't a better fit, and I certainly wouldn't call him a perfect fit. He'd be a perfect fit if we had a lot of role players but lacked ball dominant players.



I'm not disputing your analysis except whether JJ will continue as in the past. Clearly if we believe our insider
(and I do), he's going to take a hit in salary. As for the rest, we rolled the dice rightly or wrongly.
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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#317 » by TTP » Thu May 23, 2019 5:24 pm

hookshot199 wrote:
TTP wrote:
hookshot199 wrote:
So do you expect Redick to be more than a sixth-man/instant offense guy or occasional starter
depending on who we're playing?

IMO, it should be the other way round. We integrate - and pay - JJ based on what Tobias offers. JJ turns 35
in June.


I'd imagine JJ's role next year will be pretty similar to how we've been using him the last two years. He's way too important for our offense. The only way I can see him being supplanted is if someone like Shake or Zhaire makes a ridiculous offensive leap, but even then, we'd take a huge spacing hit on a team that already struggles with spacing with Redick in the lineup.

Regardless, my point has nothing to do with Redick's role. I'm saying that if you assume that Embiid, Simmons, Butler, and Redick are locked into the lineup, the overall net rating is probably higher with a Covington/Porter Jr/PJ Tucker type in that fifth spot than with Harris. A versatile defensive wing that can handle multiple positions without getting exploited while being an above average shooter from deep is a better fit than another ball handler that risks getting exposed on defense.

Harris might be a better player than all of those guys, but he isn't a better fit, and I certainly wouldn't call him a perfect fit. He'd be a perfect fit if we had a lot of role players but lacked ball dominant players.



I'm not disputing your analysis except whether JJ will continue as in the past. Clearly if we believe our insider
(and I do), he's going to take a hit in salary. As for the rest, we rolled the dice rightly or wrongly.


He should take a hit in salary after the good will we built up with that one year deal his first year (plus expected further decline). I'd imagine he should be willing to given our chances of team success and the fact that he's already made a lot of money in his career but I have no idea what his motivations are.
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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#318 » by hookshot199 » Thu May 23, 2019 5:24 pm

Sixerscan wrote:
hookshot199 wrote:
sixers4real wrote:Is that really so? Someone on this forum said it is not true.


I believe this was from a post by Sixerscan a couple of months back:

You are allowed to have two designated rookies and two designated veterans, but only one of each can be acquired by trade. Ben and Jojo are the designated rookies. Butler and Harris could both be designated veterans, but since both were acquired by trade only one can get the five year deal.

I'd rather give it to Harris, even though it's doubtful he lives up to that deal, and just let the chips fall where they may with Jimmy. 3 year max deal, take it or enjoy NY.



And then from the CBA:

There is a limit to the number of designated players a team can have on its roster at a time. A team can have up to two designated rookies (who received a longer rookie scale extension) and up to two designated veterans (who received higher than the 30% maximum salary) at any time. However, only one designated rookie and one designated veteran may have been acquired from another team in a trade.


I haven't checked to see if there are any new stipulations...

I definitely never said this.

Regardless, Butler and Harris aren’t eligible for designated veteran extensions since, among other reasons, the only team that can offer that is the team that drafted them.

Embiid is not a designated rookie also, he’s just on a normal max contract. Ben won’t be eligible for that either unless he makes an All NBA team next year.


Apologies for misquoting you. I looked back at 6:00 a.m. and thought I copied and pasted.

So what is the situation if you don't mind: Can we offer both Harris and Butler five-year deals? Or just one?
Can we offer Ben a five-year extension on his rookie contract?

Thanks.
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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#319 » by Sixerscan » Thu May 23, 2019 5:31 pm

hookshot199 wrote:
Sixerscan wrote:
hookshot199 wrote:
I believe this was from a post by Sixerscan a couple of months back:

You are allowed to have two designated rookies and two designated veterans, but only one of each can be acquired by trade. Ben and Jojo are the designated rookies. Butler and Harris could both be designated veterans, but since both were acquired by trade only one can get the five year deal.

I'd rather give it to Harris, even though it's doubtful he lives up to that deal, and just let the chips fall where they may with Jimmy. 3 year max deal, take it or enjoy NY.



And then from the CBA:

There is a limit to the number of designated players a team can have on its roster at a time. A team can have up to two designated rookies (who received a longer rookie scale extension) and up to two designated veterans (who received higher than the 30% maximum salary) at any time. However, only one designated rookie and one designated veteran may have been acquired from another team in a trade.


I haven't checked to see if there are any new stipulations...

I definitely never said this.

Regardless, Butler and Harris aren’t eligible for designated veteran extensions since, among other reasons, the only team that can offer that is the team that drafted them.

Embiid is not a designated rookie also, he’s just on a normal max contract. Ben won’t be eligible for that either unless he makes an All NBA team next year.


Apologies for misquoting you. I looked back at 6:00 a.m. and thought I copied and pasted.

So what is the situation if you don't mind: Can we offer both Harris and Butler five-year deals? Or just one?
Can we offer Ben a five-year extension on his rookie contract?

Thanks.


I’m guessing someone else said it and I responded saying they were wrong?

We can offer all of them 5 year contracts. I laid the numbers for Jimmy and Harris out above. Ben would be a 5 year starting at 25% of the cap unless he makes an all nba team then he’s eligible for 30%.
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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#320 » by hookshot199 » Thu May 23, 2019 6:05 pm

Sixerscan wrote:
hookshot199 wrote:
Sixerscan wrote:I definitely never said this.

Regardless, Butler and Harris aren’t eligible for designated veteran extensions since, among other reasons, the only team that can offer that is the team that drafted them.

Embiid is not a designated rookie also, he’s just on a normal max contract. Ben won’t be eligible for that either unless he makes an All NBA team next year.


Apologies for misquoting you. I looked back at 6:00 a.m. and thought I copied and pasted.

So what is the situation if you don't mind: Can we offer both Harris and Butler five-year deals? Or just one?
Can we offer Ben a five-year extension on his rookie contract?

Thanks.


I’m guessing someone else said it and I responded saying they were wrong?

We can offer all of them 5 year contracts. I laid the numbers for Jimmy and Harris out above. Ben would be a 5 year starting at 25% of the cap unless he makes an all nba team then he’s eligible for 30%.



Yep. You were responding. It was in the Sixers acquire Tobias Harris thread. Again, apologies.

Sixerscan wrote:
the_process wrote:
sixers4real wrote:Can they both have like five years 186M? Not max? Just a little discount.


No, the designated player means giving the fifth year. So one of them can get the fifth year, the other cannot.


This is wrong, the designated veteran extension is like what Wall and Westbrook got. It's only for guys that make all NBA teams, which Butler and Harris obviously won't qualify for. It's also known as the super max, which is well more than 5 years 190 million.

You can still give anyone that you have bird rights to 5 year deals without being designated veterans.

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