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Welcome Tobias Harris

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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#341 » by freshie2 » Sat Jun 8, 2019 12:20 pm

I also think they haven’t seen the best of Harris. He shot well below his average from 3, so his potential impact offensively should be much greater as well. Otherwise, his game was pretty solid and I don’t know how you can upgrade his position in the offseason...will be interesting.
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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#342 » by ProcessDoctor » Sun Jun 9, 2019 3:05 pm

I really like Tobias, but I really hope we don’t give him a max.

I’m okay with a 5-year deal, but maxing him is poor value. I don’t think he’ll get a max offer from anyone tbh.

Top dollar I’d go is 5-year, $160 mil for him.
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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#343 » by PhilasFinest » Sun Jun 9, 2019 4:19 pm

ProcessDoctor wrote:I really like Tobias, but I really hope we don’t give him a max.

I’m okay with a 5-year deal, but maxing him is poor value. I don’t think he’ll get a max offer from anyone tbh.

Top dollar I’d go is 5-year, $160 mil for him.


I think the team is at the point (cap wise) where its probably better to overpay him in a max, then let him go and not be able to adequately replace him.
SparksFly87 wrote:Towns got boat feet and gets off the ground very slow with a lack of explosiveness . He is a rich mans Henry Sims to me. No thanks .
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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#344 » by Bum Adebayo » Sun Jun 9, 2019 9:04 pm

Overpaying is not a good thing. It is funny how when another team overpays for a player, fans of a different team laugh at the decision, but when it happens with their team, it is all ok.
Tobias is not enough of a difference maker IMHO to be worried about losing him for nothing. Butler on the other hand is more of a difference maker and an absolute need for being able to create a shot, especially in crunch time. With Tobias one feels he is a good fit and does some things well but just not at an elite level.
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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#345 » by youngcrev » Sun Jun 9, 2019 9:23 pm

Bum Adebayo wrote:Overpaying is not a good thing. It is funny how when another team overpays for a player, fans of a different team laugh at the decision, but when it happens with their team, it is all ok.
Tobias is not enough of a difference maker IMHO to be worried about losing him for nothing. Butler on the other hand is more of a difference maker and an absolute need for being able to create a shot, especially in crunch time. With Tobias one feels he is a good fit and does some things well but just not at an elite level.


I think if we didn't trade for either of them, they are both guys that we'd be talking about making max offers to this summer without batting an eye (and it likely would of a been a longshot to land either). Overpaying is not good, but it's likely a better option than the alternative, particularly with where this team is currently.
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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#346 » by GuideDog » Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:48 pm

Sixers should retain Tobias, even if it means giving him the max contract. Our sample size with Tobias is too small to cut him loose. He's only 26. Has size to be a PF. Can shoot and has decent handles. Has a great attitude. There aren't a lot of Tobias types out there in the market. That's why many teams will make a play for him. With another half year with us, I think he will find his role and rhythm with our other big three. He can get you 20+ points on any given night.
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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#347 » by Wilfried » Mon Jun 10, 2019 5:27 pm

Maybe we can stop talking about this overpaying all the time. I guess 95% of the NBA players are overpaid. If we want to have players on our team, we have to pay them. And if they need a new contract, the market will decide their value.
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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#348 » by AirP. » Mon Jun 10, 2019 5:47 pm

Wilfried wrote:Maybe we can stop talking about this overpaying all the time. I guess 95% of the NBA players are overpaid. If we want to have players on our team, we have to pay them. And if they need a new contract, the market will decide their value.

How do you let the market dictate his value, take his word or his agent's word on what he's been offered? If he signs a contract(which would prove what he's been offered) with another team he's gone, he's not a restricted free agent where Philly can match.

Trying to save a few million on his contract(which probably won't happen unless he does a combo deal to include Boban, which will cost even more) isn't worth possibly losing him for nothing. If he's lost for nothing, you pretty much have to let JJ and Scotts holds go and then try to find whatever you can to team up with Embiid, Simmons, and Butler, well unless you let Butler go too and try to rebuild a team around Simmons and Embiid.

I have to believe that Philly decided to pay the max before they made the trade for Harris and be open to moving "someone" in the next few years.

I wouldn't have made the trade for Harris, I would have gone after a solid outside shooting 4 for a much lower cost. Mirotic for like a 1st rounder would have been a much better value.
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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#349 » by ExplosionsInDaSky » Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:30 pm

Put me on team Harris all day. Only 26 years old! Yeah...Pay that young man his money. Who....are we going to replace him with if he does walk? That should be the bigger concern. I actually have a feeling both Harris and Butler are already done deals. It's just a matter of following the free agency protocol.
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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#350 » by Wilfried » Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:55 pm

AirP. wrote:
Wilfried wrote:Maybe we can stop talking about this overpaying all the time. I guess 95% of the NBA players are overpaid. If we want to have players on our team, we have to pay them. And if they need a new contract, the market will decide their value.

How do you let the market dictate his value, take his word or his agent's word on what he's been offered? If he signs a contract(which would prove what he's been offered) with another team he's gone, he's not a restricted free agent where Philly can match.

Trying to save a few million on his contract(which probably won't happen unless he does a combo deal to include Boban, which will cost even more) isn't worth possibly losing him for nothing. If he's lost for nothing, you pretty much have to let JJ and Scotts holds go and then try to find whatever you can to team up with Embiid, Simmons, and Butler, well unless you let Butler go too and try to rebuild a team around Simmons and Embiid.

I have to believe that Philly decided to pay the max before they made the trade for Harris and be open to moving "someone" in the next few years.

I wouldn't have made the trade for Harris, I would have gone after a solid outside shooting 4 for a much lower cost. Mirotic for like a 1st rounder would have been a much better value.


You mean the 9,5 points (on 37% shooting, 29% from 3) and 4,3 rebounds (+ a whopping 0,7 assists) post season Mirotic?
The one who lost his starting job (and even reserve job) at the end of the Raptors series?
Well, you're absolutely right that he will be a far cheaper option than Tobias.
Maybe ask Milwaukee fans if they want Mirotic or Harris?


About the market: Tobias is 26 years old, had an allstar season before he got traded, he checks a lot of boxes about the modern hybrid forward (rebounding, shooting, iso game, playmaking, ...), seems to improve every year and actually fits our team.

The market will dictate he gets a max contract from someone, without a doubt. If Sixers management feel he's a good fit and he can help us to compete for a championship, it will be the Sixers offering it.

And unlike the Butler contract (although I think we absolutely need to keep him too), Tobias' contract will still be moveable while getting something decent in return too, if it won't work out.
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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#351 » by AirP. » Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:34 pm

AirP. wrote:
Wilfried wrote:I wouldn't have made the trade for Harris, I would have gone after a solid outside shooting 4 for a much lower cost. Mirotic for like a 1st rounder would have been a much better value.


You mean the 9,5 points (on 37% shooting, 29% from 3) and 4,3 rebounds (+ a whopping 0,7 assists) post season Mirotic?
The one who lost his starting job (and even reserve job) at the end of the Raptors series?
Well, you're absolutely right that he will be a far cheaper option than Tobias.
Maybe ask Milwaukee fans if they want Mirotic or Harris?

Yes, that Mirotic(really I don't care, just any solid stretch 4) because you already have playmakers in Simmons and Butler, you just need a stretch 4. When looking back at Chandler at PF, Philly did fine when he was healthy, the problem was that Chandler had issues staying healthy and was a tad undersized. Philly just needed a solid stretch 4 that could stay healthy, not a guy who could bring up the ball and handle the offense to displace Simmons and/or Butler when they're on the court. It seemed so odd to have the guy who was helping stretch the court bring the ball down leaving Butler and Simmons without the ball and their defenders able to cheat close to the lane(if not in the lane like Simmons' man was doing a lot).

I guess you'd need to factor in the price, I have no problems saying Harris is the better player, but for the price and need for the team, he was a huge overpayment. Also, I remember how Mirotic and Butler played together and how they with a bad roster got Chicago in the playoffs, I also remember Chicago shelving him because they were winning with him on the court while they were trying to tank.

Looking at the playoffs this year I watched a team that had players take turns getting shots and if that didn't work then J.Butler was asked to produce and he would because his style works with the playoff's tougher defense, he's just not been on very good playoff teams since he's become an all-star caliber player.

About the market: Tobias is 26 years old, had an allstar season before he got traded, he checks a lot of boxes about the modern hybrid forward (rebounding, shooting, iso game, playmaking, ...), seems to improve every year and actually fits our team.

Right, he's a hybrid but the team doesn't need everything he does, they need defense and 3pt shooting from PF, the rest like handling the ball displaces Simmons and/or Butler when they're on the court together. If you can move Butler for a better shooting SG/SF down the road sure, then Harris will have more value to the team.

The market will dictate he gets a max contract from someone, without a doubt. If Sixers management feel he's a good fit and he can help us to compete for a championship, it will be the Sixers offering it.

And unlike the Butler contract (although I think we absolutely need to keep him too), Tobias' contract will still be moveable while getting something decent in return too, if it won't work out.

How does Philly gage the market? Do you believe other teams will tell Philly what they're offering Harris, do you believe there won't be any teams will offer the max once they get shut out from the top free agents?

I just think if Philly doesn't just offer the max to Harris 1st thing he may feel he's not wanted nearly as much as a team willing to offer him the max. Hayward left Utah because the previous contract they told him to go get a contract and they'd match(RFA), it made him feel he wasn't as important to them as he wanted to be and it helped him decide on not resigning the next contract with them. I could see Harris feeling the same way, that's why I think it's a gamble to offer him less(although I don't think he's worth anywhere near the max, good player though).
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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#352 » by Sixerscan » Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:15 pm

Team certainly needs what Harris brings. The starters aren’t all playing together for half the game and having a guy like him that can cycle between being a spacer and creator based on the other guys on the court while also be fine defensively is key.

Even with the starters I feel like there’s plenty of opportunities for him to use his skill. It didn’t come up as much against the Raptors because of how good they are defensively, but the Celtics having to put Kyrie on him down the stretch caused huge issues for them in a way that Chandler didn’t.

The issue with him wasn’t that he was in a bad role it was that he wasn’t hitting the open shots he was getting. I tend to believe that will change, YRMV.
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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#353 » by phifans » Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:16 am

Which alternative will you choose if we say , you could get Marcus Morris , Patrick Beverley and ED Davis with the money you hand to Tobi ?

I mean I'm all for go all in chasing star players but the problem is ... Tobi is not the "star" we are talking about ... if he wants max let those mediocre team make it and he'll be a decent 2nd choice for a non-playoff team.
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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#354 » by NoDopeOnSundays » Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:24 am

phifans wrote:Which alternative will you choose if we say , you could get Marcus Morris , Patrick Beverley and ED Davis with the money you hand to Tobi ?

I mean I'm all for go all in chasing star players but the problem is ... Tobi is not the "star" we are talking about ... if he wants max let those mediocre team make it and he'll be a decent 2nd choice for a non-playoff team.




All of those guys are 30 and up (At least when next season starts), not sure why you'd want to build a team like that.


It's better to have a star like Harris and build the bench the next couple of seasons through draft picks and getting good deals on undervalued players who are between 25-28 right now.
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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#355 » by Sixerscan » Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:29 am

phifans wrote:Which alternative will you choose if we say , you could get Marcus Morris , Patrick Beverley and ED Davis with the money you hand to Tobi ?

I mean I'm all for go all in chasing star players but the problem is ... Tobi is not the "star" we are talking about ... if he wants max let those mediocre team make it and he'll be a decent 2nd choice for a non-playoff team.


That's not how it works. Not signing Harris is worth $22 million in cap space, regardless of what you sign him for. Also means you can't go over the cap to sign Redick or Scott or use the MLE

Harris + Redick + Scott +MLE > $22 million in cap space + room exception
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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#356 » by youngcrev » Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:31 am

phifans wrote:Which alternative will you choose if we say , you could get Marcus Morris , Patrick Beverley and ED Davis with the money you hand to Tobi ?

I mean I'm all for go all in chasing star players but the problem is ... Tobi is not the "star" we are talking about ... if he wants max let those mediocre team make it and he'll be a decent 2nd choice for a non-playoff team.


I think you'd get more bang for your buck with those 3, but you have the ability to spend more by keeping him. So unless your biggest worry is how much the owner is spending, in terms of building the team it would be those 3 vs Harris, JJ and an MLE signing... In which case the latter wins in a landslide
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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#357 » by phifans » Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:36 am

NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
phifans wrote:Which alternative will you choose if we say , you could get Marcus Morris , Patrick Beverley and ED Davis with the money you hand to Tobi ?

I mean I'm all for go all in chasing star players but the problem is ... Tobi is not the "star" we are talking about ... if he wants max let those mediocre team make it and he'll be a decent 2nd choice for a non-playoff team.




All of those guys are 30 and up (At least when next season starts), not sure why you'd want to build a team like that.


It's better to have a star like Harris and build the bench the next couple of seasons through draft picks and getting good deals on undervalued players who are between 25-28 right now.


All those guys are on the same pace on age with Jimmy Butler. Would you prefer retain Tobi over Jimmy ?

We have one of the youngest core pieces in this league I don't know whats the problem on surrounding them with some older/more experienced vets as long as they are useful.

And again I'm not against go for real star players. But for Tobi ... he is a fake star at most to me and he wants star money. Those are the type of guys a contender usually try their best to avoid.
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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#358 » by phifans » Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:43 am

Sixerscan wrote:
phifans wrote:Which alternative will you choose if we say , you could get Marcus Morris , Patrick Beverley and ED Davis with the money you hand to Tobi ?

I mean I'm all for go all in chasing star players but the problem is ... Tobi is not the "star" we are talking about ... if he wants max let those mediocre team make it and he'll be a decent 2nd choice for a non-playoff team.


That's not how it works. Not signing Harris is worth $22 million in cap space, regardless of what you sign him for. Also means you can't go over the cap to sign Redick or Scott or use the MLE

Harris + Redick + Scott +MLE > $22 million in cap space + room exception


JJ Redick would certainly cost a lot less than his cap hold so you may have like $30 million cap space with resigning Redick first . Losing MLE hurts a little bit but you could get three solid rotation guys with the money you retain Tobi so it won't be that matters.
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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#359 » by phifans » Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:46 am

youngcrev wrote:
phifans wrote:Which alternative will you choose if we say , you could get Marcus Morris , Patrick Beverley and ED Davis with the money you hand to Tobi ?

I mean I'm all for go all in chasing star players but the problem is ... Tobi is not the "star" we are talking about ... if he wants max let those mediocre team make it and he'll be a decent 2nd choice for a non-playoff team.


I think you'd get more bang for your buck with those 3, but you have the ability to spend more by keeping him. So unless your biggest worry is how much the owner is spending, in terms of building the team it would be those 3 vs Harris, JJ and an MLE signing... In which case the latter wins in a landslide


Again you can keep JJ Redick first so its more like those 3 vs Tobi and eh ... the $5 million differential between MLE and Room Exception
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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#360 » by Sixerscan » Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:03 am

phifans wrote:
Sixerscan wrote:
phifans wrote:Which alternative will you choose if we say , you could get Marcus Morris , Patrick Beverley and ED Davis with the money you hand to Tobi ?

I mean I'm all for go all in chasing star players but the problem is ... Tobi is not the "star" we are talking about ... if he wants max let those mediocre team make it and he'll be a decent 2nd choice for a non-playoff team.


That's not how it works. Not signing Harris is worth $22 million in cap space, regardless of what you sign him for. Also means you can't go over the cap to sign Redick or Scott or use the MLE

Harris + Redick + Scott +MLE > $22 million in cap space + room exception


JJ Redick would certainly cost a lot less than his cap hold so you may have like $30 million cap space with resigning Redick first . Losing MLE hurts a little bit but you could get three solid rotation guys with the money you retain Tobi so it won't be that matters.


No it's like 30 million before you sign Redick. Signing Redick would eat into that.

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