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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris

Posted: Sat Feb 9, 2019 7:00 pm
by LloydFree
Sixerscan wrote:
LloydFree wrote:
Arsenal wrote:
The only thing accomplished here is saving our owners' money. You're basically trading Butler + whoever we can get for the full midlevel + whoever we get for the lowlevel for Brogdon + whoever we get for the room exception.

Since we can keep Butler and Harris and Redick next year and still not go over the luxury tax line, that's what we need to do if we're seriously trying to contend.


The 76ers wouldn't necessarily be over the tax next year, but they would be paying exorbitant tax bills the following 4 years in row. That's dumb and it's poor planning, with no way of improving and no guarantee that this is a Championship team. You don't put together a team and lock yourself into 140 million in salary to 4 players for 4 years. Jimmy would instantly become un-trade-able. And then there is no way to significantly improve going forward.


Like 5 teams would offer Jimmy 4/140 this summer. It's not untradeable. You could probably get more for him than the Clippers got for Blake.

All of the other top teams in the league are going to be in the tax next year. It's part of the deal. The Sixers will not win a championship if they are not committed to paying the luxury tax more often than not over the next 5 years.



Either way, for the role he will be asked to play on this team, it's something I doubt the team will commit to paying 140 million. I don't believe any team will ever sign 4 players to 30 million whe the CAP is in the 110-120 range.

If I'm the GM, I'd go to Miami right now and try to engage them in an offseaon sign an trade for Butler for multiple players.

Re: Welcome Tobias Harris

Posted: Sat Feb 9, 2019 7:10 pm
by Sixerscan
LloydFree wrote:
Sixerscan wrote:
LloydFree wrote:
The 76ers wouldn't necessarily be over the tax next year, but they would be paying exorbitant tax bills the following 4 years in row. That's dumb and it's poor planning, with no way of improving and no guarantee that this is a Championship team. You don't put together a team and lock yourself into 140 million in salary to 4 players for 4 years. Jimmy would instantly become un-trade-able. And then there is no way to significantly improve going forward.


Like 5 teams would offer Jimmy 4/140 this summer. It's not untradeable. You could probably get more for him than the Clippers got for Blake.

All of the other top teams in the league are going to be in the tax next year. It's part of the deal. The Sixers will not win a championship if they are not committed to paying the luxury tax more often than not over the next 5 years.



Either way, for the role he will be asked to play on this team, it's something I doubt the team will commit to paying 140 million. I don't believe any team will ever sign 4 players to 30 million whe the CAP is in the 110-120 range.

If I'm the GM, I'd go to Miami right now and try to engage them in an offseaon sign an trade for Butler for multiple players.

The tax is projected to be above $140 million in 2021. The Sixers better be prepared to spend that amount, because the teams they will be facing at the highest levels will be.

I'm fine with trading him sometime between the 2020 trade deadline and the 2021 trade deadline to coincide with Ben's extension. But letting him walk this summer so you can sign Danny Green (who is 2 years older Jimmy, hasn't averaged 10 points a game since 2015, and was below average TS% 3 of the last 4 years) just seems like a waste of assets.

Re: Welcome Tobias Harris

Posted: Sat Feb 9, 2019 7:11 pm
by phiphan
Imagine the vitriol if this team makes it to the finals and we let Butler walk without an equally marquee guy replacing him

Re: Welcome Tobias Harris

Posted: Sat Feb 9, 2019 7:16 pm
by LloydFree
Kobblehead wrote:
Arsenal wrote:There's no way he takes that and no way that is all the team offers. Just not happening.

Worst case we take the Blake approach. Resign him now then trade him for the best offer we get next year.

Honestly, I wouldn't mind if my offer pissed him off and sent him to the open market.

Unless this group goes to the Finals, I expect this is a more likely scenario than them commiting 35 million to Butler. If he signs elsewhere theyll just put it on him, and pivot to a player who can play his role.

Re: Welcome Tobias Harris

Posted: Sat Feb 9, 2019 7:17 pm
by ProcessDoctor
Even if we sign Butler to a 4-year max, we're only in the tax for 3 seasons before he walks. Golden State, Cleveland, OKC, and Houston have all been in this position.

Forfeiting our shot at truly contending to save a few dollars is the dumbest thing we could do after all we've been through. We didn't go through the process to come up short because of a luxury tax bill.

Re: Welcome Tobias Harris

Posted: Sat Feb 9, 2019 8:27 pm
by FlyingArrow
I may not be totally clear on all the rules here. Is this right? We either:

* Sign as many of our own free agents as we want and are allowed to go over the cap. Then use the MLE on top of that.

OR

* Renounce enough of our free agents to stay under the cap, and then go out and sign free agents without going over the cap. Then use the MLE to go over the cap.

If that's the case (and please correct me if I have a bad assumption there), letting Butler walk and trying for the open market means that
1. We compete with everyone who has cap space (Clippers, Knicks, Lakers, etc) in trying to lure another max player here.
2. If we want max space to chase someone else we give up not just Butler but also Redick and Boban and any other free agents we might want to re-sign. And we can only re-sign them if they take the MLE or we strike out on finding another max player. In either case, we're bidding in the open market for them.

Butler in 5 years won't be worth his contract - that's a given. He might not even be playable - depends on how fast his decline is. In 4 years, probably won't be worth his contract then either. But if we try to sign him for only 2 or 3 years, he probably does walk. He might be overpaid by year 2 or 3 of the contract, but it's very unlikely that there will be another option available to us that can replace his production at any price. Underpaid superstars are where championships come from. The CBA ensures superstars are underpaid since you aren't allowed to pay what they're worth. We have one of those superstars and potentially 2 if Simmons learns to shoot. If you want a championship, you then need all-star and near-all-star players around them. Relative to a superstar, that level of player is overpaid, but they're also hard to come by so you have to pay them that to compete. We've seen that it isn't so easy to lure them here in free agency. Letting Butler walk might mean Shake Milton is our new starting SG. A bit of an exaggeration, but not by much. (And I don't mean that as a slight to Shake Milton - I'm sure he'd agree that he's not at Butler's level right now.)

Re: Welcome Tobias Harris

Posted: Sat Feb 9, 2019 10:19 pm
by Ericb5
I think people wanting to get cute with Butler are just wasting their breath. He is worth a max contract, and it doesn’t matter what the cost is to the organization if they say that they are willing to pay for it. I’d like to pay as little as possible but if it comes down to it just give him the max.

It has already been announced that the salary cap in 2 years will be $17 million more than it is this year. Chances are that 2 years after that, it will be $17 million more than that.

Locking in these contracts now makes sense because the players are worth it. The league salary cap over the life of the contracts will grow enough to bring us back down below the tax line before too long.

We have to think of it in terms of opportunity costs. This summer will be the last summer where we have max money available potentially. What free agents out there can we get that are better than Butler, and Harris? We aren’t going to get Kawhi, or Durant, so we might as well just keep our own guys.

Resign JJ, and find role players with exceptions.
, and draft picks.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Re: Welcome Tobias Harris

Posted: Sat Feb 9, 2019 10:24 pm
by FlyingArrow
By resigning our own guys, JJ doesn't eat up an exception either, so that's available for someone else.

Re: Welcome Tobias Harris

Posted: Sat Feb 9, 2019 10:59 pm
by XtremeDunkz
All the hate on Butler is really weird. It is like you guys forget how the KG Celtics and the Lebron Heat worked out. Those players bought in to the team and the system and sacrificed for it. Jimmy is playing efficient on offense, great on defense and has taken over when he has needed to. He isn't gonna go out and score 28 a game. If he is happy with his role and happy with winning he will 100% be back on a max contract.

Re: Welcome Tobias Harris

Posted: Sat Feb 9, 2019 11:16 pm
by Winejk
XtremeDunkz wrote:All the hate on Butler is really weird. It is like you guys forget how the KG Celtics and the Lebron Heat worked out. Those players bought in to the team and the system and sacrificed for it. Jimmy is playing efficient on offense, great on defense and has taken over when he has needed to. He isn't gonna go out and score 28 a game. If he is happy with his role and happy with winning he will 100% be back on a max contract.


Agreed.

All this belly aching about Butler is ridiculous. He's been buying in. He's sacrificed part of his game for the good of the team which is what it is going to take to meld all the personnel together and win. He's trying to blend in without being too aggressive. I think he's playing it right. The one outburst with Brown I think is overblown. I actually think his game will age well.

I'm more worried about replacing JJ in 2-3 years.

Re: Welcome Tobias Harris

Posted: Sat Feb 9, 2019 11:57 pm
by Kobblehead
It's not hate or bellyaching, it's conversation.

The third part of the conversation after fit and personality is whether or not it makes sense to lock a guy into a 5 year mega deal that is sure to break down quickly into his 30s.

Embiid and Simmons are 24 and 22. It's not like they're 29 like James Harden was when Morey was forced to give out the dumb extension to Chris Paul. There's absolutely no reason to feel obligated to retain Jimmy on a (IMO) knowingly dumb contract unless everything on and off the court clicks.

Re: Welcome Tobias Harris

Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 12:17 am
by Ben Simmons
as i've said before, Butler is the most unselfish star i've ever seen, he has no interest in scoring in the first 3 quarters, and then he heroically makes big shots and smart plays in the 4th quarter....also he plays defense and smiles at his teammates :nod:

Re: Welcome Tobias Harris

Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 12:21 am
by Negrodamus
I think the rest of this season is a good stress test to see if Butler works with the team moving forward. When we are faced with adversity, is he going to be a thorn in our side? Will he start taking and making threes? A few questions that need answering before we sink a massive portion of our cap in an aging star with questionable fit, especially with Ben.

Re: Welcome Tobias Harris

Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 12:29 am
by Ericb5
Kobblehead wrote:It's not hate or bellyaching, it's conversation.

The third part of the conversation after fit and personality is whether or not it makes sense to lock a guy into a 5 year mega deal that is sure to break down quickly into his 30s.

Embiid and Simmons are 24 and 22. It's not like they're 29 like James Harden was when Morey was forced to give out the dumb extension to Chris Paul. There's absolutely no reason to feel obligated to retain Jimmy on a (IMO) knowingly dumb contract unless everything on and off the court clicks.


I don’t see any reason to think that Butler will break down by the time he is 34. 34 is usually the last close to peak year that players have. If he stays healthy he will still be 90% of what he is today.

Also, I’m all for offering him a 4 year max, or a 5th year team option with a $10 million buyout or something like that.

His game is based off of skill and tenacity anyway.

Ben and Embiid are so good that they are ready to contend now, or at least Embiid is ready to contend now. Simmons still needs to grow his skills, but he is on the cusp of it.

The Sixers need to take their shot over the next 5 years, and as long as they stay healthy they should compete for a title every year, and may even win a couple of them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Re: Welcome Tobias Harris

Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 12:30 am
by Ben Simmons
Negrodamus wrote:I think the rest of this season is a good stress test to see if Butler works with the team moving forward. When we are faced with adversity, is he going to be a thorn in our side? Will he start taking and making threes? A few questions that need answering before we sink a massive portion of our cap in an aging star with questionable fit, especially with Ben.

he was a thorn in Chicago and Minnesota because his teammates were slackers, that's why he's been so perfect in Philly, our players aren't slackers and that's why he's always smiling and content here :nod:

Re: Welcome Tobias Harris

Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 12:31 am
by Negrodamus
Heidi4Ben wrote:
Negrodamus wrote:I think the rest of this season is a good stress test to see if Butler works with the team moving forward. When we are faced with adversity, is he going to be a thorn in our side? Will he start taking and making threes? A few questions that need answering before we sink a massive portion of our cap in an aging star with questionable fit, especially with Ben.

he was a thorn in Chicago and Minnesota because his teammates were slackers, that's why he's been so perfect in Philly, our players aren't slackers and that's why he's always smiling and content here :nod:


You really dig that nodding emoji, don't you.

Re: Welcome Tobias Harris

Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 12:33 am
by Ben Simmons
Negrodamus wrote:
Heidi4Ben wrote:
Negrodamus wrote:I think the rest of this season is a good stress test to see if Butler works with the team moving forward. When we are faced with adversity, is he going to be a thorn in our side? Will he start taking and making threes? A few questions that need answering before we sink a massive portion of our cap in an aging star with questionable fit, especially with Ben.

he was a thorn in Chicago and Minnesota because his teammates were slackers, that's why he's been so perfect in Philly, our players aren't slackers and that's why he's always smiling and content here :nod:


You really dig that nodding emoji, don't you.

yeah i can apply it to everything i write because i agree with everything i write :nod:

Re: Welcome Tobias Harris

Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 1:09 am
by SF_Warriors
Are there really people who question the fit?

Add a 42% 3 point shooter 20ppg scorer to the teams weakest position,whiole not giving up any of the teams best players...

I mean you are supposed to surround simmons with efficient shooting and biid is most effective playing next to a stretch 4 right?

Re: Welcome Tobias Harris

Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 1:40 am
by Bum Adebayo
SF_Warriors wrote:Are there really people who question the fit?

Add a 42% 3 point shooter 20ppg scorer to the teams weakest position,whiole not giving up any of the teams best players...

I mean you are supposed to surround simmons with efficient shooting and biid is most effective playing next to a stretch 4 right?


The questionable fit is Butler, not Harris.

Re: Welcome Tobias Harris

Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 1:53 am
by eyeatoma
Ericb5 wrote:I think people wanting to get cute with Butler are just wasting their breath. He is worth a max contract, and it doesn’t matter what the cost is to the organization if they say that they are willing to pay for it. I’d like to pay as little as possible but if it comes down to it just give him the max.

It has already been announced that the salary cap in 2 years will be $17 million more than it is this year. Chances are that 2 years after that, it will be $17 million more than that.

Locking in these contracts now makes sense because the players are worth it. The league salary cap over the life of the contracts will grow enough to bring us back down below the tax line before too long.

We have to think of it in terms of opportunity costs. This summer will be the last summer where we have max money available potentially. What free agents out there can we get that are better than Butler, and Harris? We aren’t going to get Kawhi, or Durant, so we might as well just keep our own guys.

Resign JJ, and find role players with exceptions.
, and draft picks.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I hundred percent agree with this if Butler isn't a drama queen, accepts his role, and continues to be an elite defender. But right now, he's not playing like the player he is. He needs to be more aggressive in taking 3 pointers, and taking shots in general. At the time, I thought Butler would be our second leading scorer. But with the arrival of Harris, I could easily see him eclipsing Butler's numbers.