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Welcome Tobias Harris

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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#421 » by LloydFree » Sun Aug 18, 2019 1:33 pm

Kobblehead wrote:
VDT wrote:Well of course having a star ball handler is better than not having one. Also having champions where none of the two best players is a big is expected. After all bigs are only two positions out of the five. Having said that only the Bulls i think were built like that and the champions un the last decade or so where bigs were basically roleplayers.

Dude, it's been the last 40 years of NBA basketball. You realize that teams that win championships running their offense through a big is like in the 1%, right?

So banking on us being able to win a championship with Embiid as our #1 option and crunchtime closer is basically praying to be an ultra rare exception.

Tobias Harris absolutely has to be granted (and successful in) a closing role if we realistically hope to win a championship.

Your math is off. With Olajuwan's two (2), Shaq's three (3) with the Lakers, and Duncan's five, that's 10 of the last 27. That's 37%.

The moral to the story is when you have the far and away best Big Man in the game, you can run your offense through them and win. Post offense, on a whole is inefficient, because there aren't enough players good enough to play that way. If you have the player, you can play that way and win.
Fischella wrote:I think none of you guys that are pro-Embiid no how basketball works today.. is way easier to win it all with Omer Asik than Olajuwon.
Actually if you ask me which Center I want for my perfect championship caliber team, I will chose Asik hands down
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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#422 » by Kobblehead » Sun Aug 18, 2019 1:42 pm

Kobe drove the offense in 2 of Shaq's 3 titles in L.A. Drexler drove the offense in 1 of Hakeem's 2 titles in Houston.

Also, the Spurs didn't run offense through Duncan in his final 2 titles. That was the Tony Parker show in the 4th one. And then obviously his role was reduced significantly to glorified role player for the 5th one.
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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#423 » by LloydFree » Sun Aug 18, 2019 1:47 pm

Kobblehead wrote:Kobe drove the offense in 2 of Shaq's 3 titles in L.A. Drexler drove the offense in 1 of Hakeem's 2 titles in Houston.

Also, the Spurs didn't run offense through Duncan in his final 2 titles. That was the Tony Parker show in the 4th one. And then obviously his role was reduced significantly to glorified role player for the 5th one.

That's out right false.
Fischella wrote:I think none of you guys that are pro-Embiid no how basketball works today.. is way easier to win it all with Omer Asik than Olajuwon.
Actually if you ask me which Center I want for my perfect championship caliber team, I will chose Asik hands down
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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#424 » by Kobblehead » Sun Aug 18, 2019 1:51 pm

It's one thing if you believe that Harris is the best offensive player in the team, but if you dont i dont see the point in making him the "closer". If he is not good enough to lead the team the first 3 quarters what makes you think he will be able to do it in the last when it is more difficult to score because everyone plays harder.

Tobias Harris not being good enough to thrive in closing role is a very real concern.

He's the only scorer we have that can go on the ball and get buckets off the dribble from multiple levels, though. So he's the best option we have.
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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#425 » by Kobblehead » Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:05 pm

LloydFree wrote:The moral to the story is when you have the far and away best Big Man in the game, you can run your offense through them and win. Post offense, on a whole is inefficient, because there aren't enough players good enough to play that way. If you have the player, you can play that way and win.


I see some important qualities that Duncan and Olajuwon embodied that allowed them to drive an offense to titles. Qualities that are transparently absent from Joel, at this point.

Stamina, endurance, poise, etc.
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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#426 » by VDT » Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:11 pm

You are being dogmatic here. You dont need to have Michael Jordan to win a title. I mean if you have Jordan by all means give him the ball otherwise you will have to roll with what you have and give the ball to your best shot creator.

By the way i have no idea what Harris has done to be perceived as some kind of closer. Usually you first have to prove yourself as a shot creator during the regular season, then in the playoffs and then during the the closing minutes of a playoff game. Harris has done neither yet.
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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#427 » by Kobblehead » Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:17 pm

LloydFree wrote:
Kobblehead wrote:Kobe drove the offense in 2 of Shaq's 3 titles in L.A. Drexler drove the offense in 1 of Hakeem's 2 titles in Houston.

Also, the Spurs didn't run offense through Duncan in his final 2 titles. That was the Tony Parker show in the 4th one. And then obviously his role was reduced significantly to glorified role player for the 5th one.

That's out right false.


How are you adamantly rejecting that point but trying to give credit to Duncan for being the best player on all 5 of his titles?

And even if you think Hakeem's championship in 1995 is another example of a team winning a championship through a big that we can emulate, who on this Sixers team is as good as Clyde Drexler was in '95?

The Sixers don't have anyone as godly as Kobe Bryant in the 2000s, don't have anyone as good as Drexler in the mid-90s. We also don't appear to have anyone stylistically that resembles Tony Parker or Manu Ginoboli to score buckets in halfcourt sets (except my guy Korkmaz lol).

Tobias Harris is the key to this whole thing.
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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#428 » by Kobblehead » Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:23 pm

VDT wrote:You are being dogmatic here. You dont need to have Michael Jordan to win a title. I mean if you have Jordan by all means give him the ball otherwise you will have to roll with what you have and give the ball to your best shot creator.

By the way i have no idea what Harris has done to be perceived as some kind of closer. Usually you first have to prove yourself as a shot creator during the regular season, then in the playoffs and then during the the closing minutes of a playoff game. Harris has done neither yet.


He has done very little. I'm just projecting him into that role because of his displayed skillset. Clippers Tobias Harris was scoring off the dribble from multiple levels on high efficiency. He was a pseudo-star. He came here and was reduced to the Dario Saric role. Now that usage has opened up for him, I'd like to see him play like he did in L.A. again. And that would bode tremendously for our title chances.
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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#429 » by LloydFree » Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:34 pm

Kobblehead wrote:
LloydFree wrote:
Kobblehead wrote:Kobe drove the offense in 2 of Shaq's 3 titles in L.A. Drexler drove the offense in 1 of Hakeem's 2 titles in Houston.

Also, the Spurs didn't run offense through Duncan in his final 2 titles. That was the Tony Parker show in the 4th one. And then obviously his role was reduced significantly to glorified role player for the 5th one.

That's out right false.


How are you adamantly rejecting that point but trying to give credit to Duncan for being the best player on all 5 of his titles?

And even if you think Hakeem's championship in 1995 is another example of a team winning a championship through a big that we can emulate, who on this Sixers team is as good as Clyde Drexler was in '95?

The Sixers don't have anyone as godly as Kobe Bryant in the 2000s, don't have anyone as good as Drexler in the mid-90s. WeS also don't appear to have anyone stylistically that resembles Tony Parker or Manu Ginoboli to score buckets in halfcourt sets (except my guy Korkmaz lol).

Tobias Harris is the key to this whole thing.

First of all, there is no number or metric that exists, that you can give me, that could show me that Clyde Drexler drove the '95 Rockets offense. Whether it was the 21 FG's per game that Olajuwan took or his 31% usage, there is nothing that says anybody but Olajuwan drove that team. Second, I saw the entirety of Drexlers career. By the time Drexler went to Houston, in his 30's, he was no better than Tobias Harris. He was a low usage 20 ppg scorer, who put up about the same numbers as Harris.
Fischella wrote:I think none of you guys that are pro-Embiid no how basketball works today.. is way easier to win it all with Omer Asik than Olajuwon.
Actually if you ask me which Center I want for my perfect championship caliber team, I will chose Asik hands down
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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#430 » by Kobblehead » Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:43 pm

LloydFree wrote:First of all, there u no number or metric that you can give me that could show me that Clyde Drexler drove the '95 Rockets offense. Whether it was the 21 FG's per game that Olajuwan took or his 31% usage, there is nothing that says anybody but Olajuwan drove that team. Second, I saw the entirety of Drexlers career. By the time Drexler went to Houston, in his 30's, he was no better than Tobias Harris. He was a low usage 20 ppg scorer, who put up about the same numbers as Harris.


Hakeem with no Drexler needed 7 games to beat a sorry Knicks team with John Starks as their 2nd best player. If they don't have Drexler, they're not beating Orlando the following year.

Also, Hakeem is ringless if Jordan doesn't get suspended by Stern.
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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#431 » by VDT » Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:50 pm

Kobblehead wrote:
VDT wrote:You are being dogmatic here. You dont need to have Michael Jordan to win a title. I mean if you have Jordan by all means give him the ball otherwise you will have to roll with what you have and give the ball to your best shot creator.

By the way i have no idea what Harris has done to be perceived as some kind of closer. Usually you first have to prove yourself as a shot creator during the regular season, then in the playoffs and then during the the closing minutes of a playoff game. Harris has done neither yet.


He has done very little. I'm just projecting him into that role because of his displayed skillset. Clippers Tobias Harris was scoring off the dribble from multiple levels on high efficiency. He was a pseudo-star. He came here and was reduced to the Dario Saric role. Now that usage has opened up for him, I'd like to see him play like he did in L.A. again. And that would bode tremendously for our title chances.


There is a chasm between being a pseudo star and closing games for a title team.

You are generally overthinking it. Contenders are generally built by trying to put the best team around your franchise player and hoping that he is good enough, you dont try to mimic previous champions, it very rarely works this way.

You are also underestimating the talent of the team, it is not just Embiid , Harris and some roleplayers. Simmons is an all star, Horford is a former all star whose impact is bigger than his raw stats. Both of them are more impactful players than Harris. With some improvement from Embiid and Simmons the team could literally win simply on superior talent, regardless of having a closer or not. The team would probably have won last year with a healthy Embiid.
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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#432 » by Kobblehead » Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:05 pm

VDT wrote:There is a chasm between being a pseudo star and closing games for a title team.

You are generally overthinking it. Contenders are generally built by trying to put the best team around your franchise player and hoping that he is good enough, you dont try to mimic previous champions, it very rarely works this way.

You are also underestimating the talent of the team, it is not just Embiid , Harris and some roleplayers. Simmons is an all star, Horford is a former all star whose impact is bigger than his raw stats. Both of them are more impactful players than Harris. With some improvement from Embiid and Simmons the team could literally win simply on superior talent, regardless of having a closer or not. The team would probably have won last year with a healthy Embiid.

Nah, contenders are generally built on having star level scorers that can go on the ball and score from multiple levels in the halfcourt off the dribble. The only player on that roster that remotely resembles that skillset is Tobias Harris.

We can pray that the all around games of the guys in our starting lineup will keep us out of close games in the playoffs, but that's wishful thinking. At some point, we'll be forced to score buckets in the halfcourt against attentive defenders with playoff games on the line. That's where the harsh reality of our title chances rears its head.
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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#433 » by VDT » Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:36 pm

Kobblehead wrote:
VDT wrote:There is a chasm between being a pseudo star and closing games for a title team.

You are generally overthinking it. Contenders are generally built by trying to put the best team around your franchise player and hoping that he is good enough, you dont try to mimic previous champions, it very rarely works this way.

You are also underestimating the talent of the team, it is not just Embiid , Harris and some roleplayers. Simmons is an all star, Horford is a former all star whose impact is bigger than his raw stats. Both of them are more impactful players than Harris. With some improvement from Embiid and Simmons the team could literally win simply on superior talent, regardless of having a closer or not. The team would probably have won last year with a healthy Embiid.

Nah, contenders are generally built on having star level scorers that can go on the ball and score from multiple levels in the halfcourt off the dribble. The only player on that roster that remotely resembles that skillset is Tobias Harris.

We can pray that the all around games of the guys in our starting lineup will keep us out of close games in the playoffs, but that's wishful thinking. At some point, we'll be forced to score buckets in the halfcourt against attentive defenders with playoff games on the line. That's where the harsh reality of our title chances rears its head.



So Kareem, Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem or even Magic and Bird were scoring off the dribble or were their teams not built around them ?

You seem to think that you need to have a Kobe/Jordan type to win. Even they in their 30s were mostly playing through the post in the half court.
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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#434 » by Sixerscan » Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:39 pm

Kobblehead wrote:
Sixerscan wrote:You know, you can make a point without being so ridiculous you are obviously wrong.


Okay, let's crunch the numbers precisely then.

2010s: Nowitzki in 2011
2000s: O'Neil in 2000, Duncan in 2004 and 2005
1990s: Olajuwon in 1994, Duncan in 1999

30 years of sample size, 6 championship teams that ran their offense through a big. Is that really much better? It would still be an ULTRA RARE feat if we win a championship running through Joel Embiid.

And given the dominant teams out West, we won't have the benefit of going up against weak competition in the Finals like many of the exceptions above were able to.


I'm not sure what to do with this, like, you left off a finals where Shaq averaged 36 PPG, among like 3-4 others where the consensus is the big guy was the best player on the team. Clearly this is just something you want to dig your heels in and argue about. It's very possible to win a title with a big guy as your best player/leading scorer/however you want to move the goal post.
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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#435 » by LloydFree » Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:47 pm

Kobblehead wrote:
LloydFree wrote:First of all, there u no number or metric that you can give me that could show me that Clyde Drexler drove the '95 Rockets offense. Whether it was the 21 FG's per game that Olajuwan took or his 31% usage, there is nothing that says anybody but Olajuwan drove that team. Second, I saw the entirety of Drexlers career. By the time Drexler went to Houston, in his 30's, he was no better than Tobias Harris. He was a low usage 20 ppg scorer, who put up about the same numbers as Harris.


Hakeem with no Drexler needed 7 games to beat a sorry Knicks team with John Starks as their 2nd best player. If they don't have Drexler, they're not beating Orlando the following year.

Also, Hakeem is ringless if Jordan doesn't get suspended by Stern.

Maybe. I'm not sure about that. The Rockets regularly beat the Bulls during that period. For some reason the Rockets couldn't beat the Supersonics and the Supersonics couldn't beat the Jazz. If the Rockets ever figured out a way to get to the Finals in the same year the Bulls were in the Finals, I'm not so sure Olajuwan wouldn't have wiped the floor with Luc Longley.
Fischella wrote:I think none of you guys that are pro-Embiid no how basketball works today.. is way easier to win it all with Omer Asik than Olajuwon.
Actually if you ask me which Center I want for my perfect championship caliber team, I will chose Asik hands down
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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#436 » by Kobblehead » Sun Aug 18, 2019 4:16 pm

Sixerscan wrote:I'm not sure what to do with this, like, you left off a finals where Shaq averaged 36 PPG, among like 3-4 others where the consensus is the big guy was the best player on the team. Clearly this is just something you want to dig your heels in and argue about. It's very possible to win a title with a big guy as your best player/leading scorer/however you want to move the goal post.


What was Kobe averaging during that same span? Like 28? Who's our Kobe equivalent?

Goes listen to Shaq's sitdown with Kobe for TNT. He admits everything I'm saying. I'll take them through 3 and then Kobe takes over in the 4th.

It's very possible. Just very rare. Increasingly so as the game as continued to change each decade. Dirk was the last big that carried an offense to a title (2011). And he was a very different player stylistically than Joel Embiid.

So you gotta go back to 2005 to find a team that won a title running their offense through a post scoring big.
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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#437 » by Kobblehead » Sun Aug 18, 2019 4:57 pm

LloydFree wrote:Maybe. I'm not sure about that. The Rockets regularly beat the Bulls during that period. For some reason the Rockets couldn't beat the Supersonics and the Supersonics couldn't beat the Jazz. If the Rockets ever figured out a way to get to the Finals in the same year the Bulls were in the Finals, I'm not so sure Olajuwan wouldn't have wiped the floor with Luc Longley.

What a hell of a precedent that would have been for the Clippers/Sixers argument.

I'd imagine Olajuwan would have wiped the floor with Longley through 3 and 1/2 quarters and then Jordan and Pippen would have swarmed him in crunchtime and generated a ton of turnovers and bad FGAs.
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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#438 » by LloydFree » Sun Aug 18, 2019 5:17 pm

Kobblehead wrote:
LloydFree wrote:Maybe. I'm not sure about that. The Rockets regularly beat the Bulls during that period. For some reason the Rockets couldn't beat the Supersonics and the Supersonics couldn't beat the Jazz. If the Rockets ever figured out a way to get to the Finals in the same year the Bulls were in the Finals, I'm not so sure Olajuwan wouldn't have wiped the floor with Luc Longley.

What a hell of a precedent that would have been for the Clippers/Sixers argument.

I'd imagine Olajuwan would have wiped the floor with Longley through 3 and 1/2 quarters and then Jordan and Pippen would have swarmed him in crunchtime and generated a ton of turnovers and bad FGAs.

Almost.

Switch that last part about "bad FG attempts and turnovers" to "kick outs to Robert Horry, Sam Cassel, Vernon Maxwell, Kenny Smith and Mario Elie for wide open 3 pointers."
Fischella wrote:I think none of you guys that are pro-Embiid no how basketball works today.. is way easier to win it all with Omer Asik than Olajuwon.
Actually if you ask me which Center I want for my perfect championship caliber team, I will chose Asik hands down
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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#439 » by ProcessDoctor » Sun Aug 18, 2019 5:18 pm

It's been a while since I've seen anyone claim Kobe boosted Shaq in any of their 3 Finals victories. Every metric supports Shaq being the clear alpha on the team with Kobe also carrying a large offensive load. Don't get me wrong, Kobe was absolutely phenomenal in the 2001 playoffs, but Shaq was still the best player on that team.

As it relates to Tobias, he's obviously not Kobe. However, he will need to put up all-star numbers for us to be a real threat in the playoffs. Embiid is a go-to scorer. Ben, JRich, and Horford are all complimentary scorers. Tobias needs to be our 2nd go-to scorer.
2019-2020 Philadelphia 76ers:

Simmons/Burke/Neto/Milton
Richardson/Smith/Korkmaz
Harris/Ennis/Thybulle
Horford/Scott/Bolden
Embiid/O’Quinn
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Re: Welcome Tobias Harris 

Post#440 » by Kobblehead » Sun Aug 18, 2019 5:32 pm

LloydFree wrote:Almost.

Switch that last part about "bad FG attempts and turnovers" to "kick outs to Robert Horry, Sam Cassel, Vernon Maxwell, Kenny Smith and Mario Elie for wide open 3 pointers."

Would he have, though?

Olajuwan held a nearly single digit assist rate through his 20s. He didn't really become a ball mover until he aged out of his prime. The Rockets only chance to catch the Bulls slipping would have been the early 90s when Hakeem was at his peak. Just so happened to be the point of his career where he was a bit of a black hole, though.

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