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Im tired of people throwing around counting stats as well with Tobias. They are basically meaningless. Michael Carter Williams once averaged like 16 points a game 8 assists and 6 rebounds. Harris has never been an impact player according to catch all types stats. Of course its not his fault he is over-paid but it still doesnt mean his contract isnt a gigantic problelm. They'll never truly contend with this guy he eats up too much money for what he provides. You just cant say well every catch all type stat undervalue him lol. They all say he is a slightly above average player and thats what I see with my eyes as well. He only has a .560 TS% that is league average for a so called shooter. The only thing this guy has going for him statisitcally is a relatively high ppg average. And lets not even get to his defense. After a uncharateristicly strong first 30 games or so he is back to being a below average defender according to any worthwhile analytic defensive stat. Tobi = nice guy, decent player, and albatross he can be and is all three.

mjkvol wrote:

brannigan73 wrote:This guy is a loser (I dont mean as a person as a basketball player) I cant take it anymore. There were rumors that Butler said he didnt want to be on the Sixers if Harris was. And he hasnt been playing that great lately. He had one great game versus the Kings Go take a look at his advanced plus minus type stats for the season. He is barely in the positive with RPM. His PIPM is comparable to a guy like Bojan Bogdanovich and worse then Gallinari. Those guys make roughly half of what Tobi does. He isnt worth anywhere near 35 million its a giant problem. You cant kluge around paying a guy almost 2x what he is worth. It takes funds away from other areas on the roster that need to be shored up. He is not close to good enough to be the third best player on a championship team. I dont understand how people still dont get it. That contract is a huge problem. HUGE. If he was as good as some of you are still claiming we wouldnt lose to G league Warriors. He would be enough to win the game for us.

He's not a loser, but he's nothing close to a max player and he doesn't fit with our two best players. The contract is an abomination, but I'm afraid that he's here to stay. He's a good guy, great in the community, and he was Brand's big fish. I think they will try to move Horford, but for some reason I think Harris is here to stay.

You can say Harris isn't a good fit next to the best two players.

But get real everyone, it's hard in today's NBA to fit next to a low post big man, and a 6'10 point guard that can't shoot. It would be nice if Tobias was a catch and shoot player, but as big of a fan as I am of him.... The issue that makes nothing fit ever is Ben Simmons. Because of Ben, you need a guy like Tobias that can get his own shot from the perimeter and be a go to scorer at times, but you don't give him the space to operate. This team is lucky to have Tobias, and honestly Al this year too, mostly because Joel has basically missed half the season. 76ers are lucky Tobias didn't leave for nothing, and produces well enough in a well rounded way and young enough that he can be moved if there were better moves out there.

M2J wrote:

mjkvol wrote:

brannigan73 wrote:This guy is a loser (I dont mean as a person as a basketball player) I cant take it anymore. There were rumors that Butler said he didnt want to be on the Sixers if Harris was. And he hasnt been playing that great lately. He had one great game versus the Kings Go take a look at his advanced plus minus type stats for the season. He is barely in the positive with RPM. His PIPM is comparable to a guy like Bojan Bogdanovich and worse then Gallinari. Those guys make roughly half of what Tobi does. He isnt worth anywhere near 35 million its a giant problem. You cant kluge around paying a guy almost 2x what he is worth. It takes funds away from other areas on the roster that need to be shored up. He is not close to good enough to be the third best player on a championship team. I dont understand how people still dont get it. That contract is a huge problem. HUGE. If he was as good as some of you are still claiming we wouldnt lose to G league Warriors. He would be enough to win the game for us.

He's not a loser, but he's nothing close to a max player and he doesn't fit with our two best players. The contract is an abomination, but I'm afraid that he's here to stay. He's a good guy, great in the community, and he was Brand's big fish. I think they will try to move Horford, but for some reason I think Harris is here to stay.

You can say Harris isn't a good fit next to the best two players.

But get real everyone, it's hard in today's NBA to fit next to a low post big man, and a 6'10 point guard that can't shoot. It would be nice if Tobias was a catch and shoot player, but as big of a fan as I am of him.... The issue that makes nothing fit ever is Ben Simmons. Because of Ben, you need a guy like Tobias that can get his own shot from the perimeter and be a go to scorer at times, but you don't give him the space to operate. This team is lucky to have Tobias, and honestly Al this year too, mostly because Joel has basically missed half the season. 76ers are lucky Tobias didn't leave for nothing, and produces well enough in a well rounded way and young enough that he can be moved if there were better moves out there.

Again, I'm not faulting Harris - he is what he is as a player, a solid complimentary player on most teams. The issue was trading for him in the first place and giving him a max contract, which Brand was forced into a corner to offer after Butler left. Honestly, I'd love to have Shamet, those picks, and the extra cap space right now.

Calling Simmons the bad fit is pointless, because he and Jo are the guys you have to build around unless you plan on blowing the whole thing up. That being the case, getting a guy who needs to occupy the same space to be effective and paying him that large a chunk of the cap is the height of mismanagement.

I just don’t get the hate on Tobias, is he slightly over paid? Yes but he’s producing this year and I believe that if Brett Brown used him better he’d produce even more.
He’s actually shooting better from 3 than James harden, trae young, dangello russel and heaps of others that are considered shooters so while we could’ve used his money to fill out the roster better I’m gonna wait to see what happens in the playoffs or with a better coach guiding this team.

mjkvol wrote:

M2J wrote:

mjkvol wrote:
He's not a loser, but he's nothing close to a max player and he doesn't fit with our two best players. The contract is an abomination, but I'm afraid that he's here to stay. He's a good guy, great in the community, and he was Brand's big fish. I think they will try to move Horford, but for some reason I think Harris is here to stay.

You can say Harris isn't a good fit next to the best two players.

But get real everyone, it's hard in today's NBA to fit next to a low post big man, and a 6'10 point guard that can't shoot. It would be nice if Tobias was a catch and shoot player, but as big of a fan as I am of him.... The issue that makes nothing fit ever is Ben Simmons. Because of Ben, you need a guy like Tobias that can get his own shot from the perimeter and be a go to scorer at times, but you don't give him the space to operate. This team is lucky to have Tobias, and honestly Al this year too, mostly because Joel has basically missed half the season. 76ers are lucky Tobias didn't leave for nothing, and produces well enough in a well rounded way and young enough that he can be moved if there were better moves out there.

Again, I'm not faulting Harris - he is what he is as a player, a solid complimentary player on most teams. The issue was trading for him in the first place and giving him a max contract, which Brand was forced into a corner to offer after Butler left. Honestly, I'd love to have Shamet, those picks, and the extra cap space right now.

Calling Simmons the bad fit is pointless, because he and Jo are the guys you have to build around unless you plan on blowing the whole thing up. That being the case, getting a guy who needs to occupy the same space to be effective and paying him that large a chunk of the cap is the height of mismanagement.

He’s a solid contributor on every team. He’s a great 3rd or 4th guy on a playoff roster. He gets paid like a 1 or 2 guy. As you say, not his fault. I think Tobias draws so much ire because he is the ultimate symbol of sixers management gone wrong. He is a constant reminder not only of his bad contract, but of all the other bad contracts, puzzling moves, and forthcoming bad decisions from this front office.

Aussiepiston1 wrote:I just don’t get the hate on Tobias, is he slightly over paid? Yes but he’s producing this year and I believe that if Brett Brown used him better he’d produce even more.
He’s actually shooting better from 3 than James harden, trae young, dangello russel and heaps of others that are considered shooters so while we could’ve used his money to fill out the roster better I’m gonna wait to see what happens in the playoffs or with a better coach guiding this team.

He's a lot more than slightly overpaid.

I'm not sure why you are placing blame on Brett for Tobias producing at pretty much the same rate that he has for the last few years while playing the best defense of his career.

I'm also not sure why you are comparing his 3 point percentages to guys that take a high volume of pull up 3 pointers (higher difficulty, lower percentage shots). For the most part Tobias takes open catch and shoot 3s. It's apples to oranges.

He's a good player. A notch below All Star level. He also seems to be a great locker room presence and a leader on the team. But when you sign that type of contract it comes with some big expectations, whether that's fair or not.

youngcrev wrote:

Aussiepiston1 wrote:I just don’t get the hate on Tobias, is he slightly over paid? Yes but he’s producing this year and I believe that if Brett Brown used him better he’d produce even more.
He’s actually shooting better from 3 than James harden, trae young, dangello russel and heaps of others that are considered shooters so while we could’ve used his money to fill out the roster better I’m gonna wait to see what happens in the playoffs or with a better coach guiding this team.

He's a lot more than slightly overpaid.

I'm not sure why you are placing blame on Brett for Tobias producing at pretty much the same rate that he has for the last few years while playing the best defense of his career.

I'm also not sure why you are comparing his 3 point percentages to guys that take a high volume of pull up 3 pointers (higher difficulty, lower percentage shots). For the most part Tobias takes open catch and shoot 3s. It's apples to oranges.

He's a good player. A notch below All Star level. He also seems to be a great locker room presence and a leader on the team. But when you sign that type of contract it comes with some big expectations, whether that's fair or not.

Why are you people keep on bringing up Harris' contract? He is not the reason why we didn't sign any significant FA last offseason. It was Horford's contract that prevented this. If Harris' contract is 20M instead of 32M, we are still on the same situation this coming offseason with regards to signing a free agent.

Now, if the owners will not pay the luxury tax because of Harris' contract then that is the time to criticize his contract but the blame should be placed on Brand, not Harris.

mithrandir17 wrote:

youngcrev wrote:

Aussiepiston1 wrote:I just don’t get the hate on Tobias, is he slightly over paid? Yes but he’s producing this year and I believe that if Brett Brown used him better he’d produce even more.
He’s actually shooting better from 3 than James harden, trae young, dangello russel and heaps of others that are considered shooters so while we could’ve used his money to fill out the roster better I’m gonna wait to see what happens in the playoffs or with a better coach guiding this team.

He's a lot more than slightly overpaid.

I'm not sure why you are placing blame on Brett for Tobias producing at pretty much the same rate that he has for the last few years while playing the best defense of his career.

I'm also not sure why you are comparing his 3 point percentages to guys that take a high volume of pull up 3 pointers (higher difficulty, lower percentage shots). For the most part Tobias takes open catch and shoot 3s. It's apples to oranges.

He's a good player. A notch below All Star level. He also seems to be a great locker room presence and a leader on the team. But when you sign that type of contract it comes with some big expectations, whether that's fair or not.

Why are you people keep on bringing up Harris' contract? He is not the reason why we didn't sign any significant FA last offseason. It was Horford's contract that prevented this. If Harris' contract is 20M instead of 32M, we are still on the same situation this coming offseason with regards to signing a free agent.

Now, if the owners will not pay the luxury tax because of Harris' contract then that is the time to criticize his contract but the blame should be placed on Brand, not Harris.

Two things can't be true? They're both really bad contracts.

Btw, even if you completely wiped away Horford's contract, you still wouldn't have cap space this upcoming off-season.

Not that it's about cap space anymore. It's more about maneuverability at this point. Both guys have significantly less trade value because of their contracts. They'll also be a luxury tax team, so that reduces the amount they can offer via the MLE. And unless the owners are willing to get a little crazy, it's going to limit their ability to retain talent.

youngcrev wrote:

mithrandir17 wrote:

youngcrev wrote:
He's a lot more than slightly overpaid.

I'm not sure why you are placing blame on Brett for Tobias producing at pretty much the same rate that he has for the last few years while playing the best defense of his career.

I'm also not sure why you are comparing his 3 point percentages to guys that take a high volume of pull up 3 pointers (higher difficulty, lower percentage shots). For the most part Tobias takes open catch and shoot 3s. It's apples to oranges.

He's a good player. A notch below All Star level. He also seems to be a great locker room presence and a leader on the team. But when you sign that type of contract it comes with some big expectations, whether that's fair or not.

Why are you people keep on bringing up Harris' contract? He is not the reason why we didn't sign any significant FA last offseason. It was Horford's contract that prevented this. If Harris' contract is 20M instead of 32M, we are still on the same situation this coming offseason with regards to signing a free agent.

Now, if the owners will not pay the luxury tax because of Harris' contract then that is the time to criticize his contract but the blame should be placed on Brand, not Harris.

Two things can't be true? They're both really bad contracts.

Btw, even if you completely wiped away Horford's contract, you still wouldn't have cap space this upcoming off-season.

Not that it's about cap space anymore. It's more about maneuverability at this point. Both guys have significantly less trade value because of their contracts. They'll also be a luxury tax team, so that reduces the amount they can offer via the MLE. And unless the owners are willing to get a little crazy, it's going to limit their ability to retain talent.

How much should Tobias' contract be so that he won't be called a bad contract? 20M? 25M? If that is the number then he could have easily gotten that much with other teams last summer and we would have been stuck with both Butler and Harris walking out for nothing.

Even if you distributed Al's money to two different players (with both contracts still add up to 27.5M) and signed Harris to a 20M contract, we will still be over the tax line because of Ben's extension and can only offer the same amount of MLE. And about the trade value of Harris, as I said earlier, if you offer Harris an amount where he can be easily moved later, what makes you think that he will accept the offer?

mithrandir17 wrote:

youngcrev wrote:

Aussiepiston1 wrote:I just don’t get the hate on Tobias, is he slightly over paid? Yes but he’s producing this year and I believe that if Brett Brown used him better he’d produce even more.
He’s actually shooting better from 3 than James harden, trae young, dangello russel and heaps of others that are considered shooters so while we could’ve used his money to fill out the roster better I’m gonna wait to see what happens in the playoffs or with a better coach guiding this team.

He's a lot more than slightly overpaid.

I'm not sure why you are placing blame on Brett for Tobias producing at pretty much the same rate that he has for the last few years while playing the best defense of his career.

I'm also not sure why you are comparing his 3 point percentages to guys that take a high volume of pull up 3 pointers (higher difficulty, lower percentage shots). For the most part Tobias takes open catch and shoot 3s. It's apples to oranges.

He's a good player. A notch below All Star level. He also seems to be a great locker room presence and a leader on the team. But when you sign that type of contract it comes with some big expectations, whether that's fair or not.

Why are you people keep on bringing up Harris' contract? He is not the reason why we didn't sign any significant FA last offseason. It was Horford's contract that prevented this. If Harris' contract is 20M instead of 32M, we are still on the same situation this coming offseason with regards to signing a free agent.

Now, if the owners will not pay the luxury tax because of Harris' contract then that is the time to criticize his contract but the blame should be placed on Brand, not Harris.

The reasons why his contract is brought up is the absurdity of paying a complimentary player the max, and also the lack of flexibility it gives the team moving forward.

My POV is that it could be 20 mil or 35 mil and it would still be a bad signing because his style of play just doesn't fit what we need next to Ben and Jo. Harris' strength is on ball in the same area of the court as Ben and Jo need to operate. He's a good player and a great guy, but it's just not a good fit here.

$25m is the sweet spot.

If Harris could have gotten more than that, so be it. Let him walk.

Overpaid.

Everyone’s overpaid in this league.

Even Ben and Jojo are overpaid or will be overpaid.

This disappointment of a regular season has turned into such a silly bashing of Tobias Harris.

They'll never win anything with this guy because they won't have the money to upgrade in other spots. There is not enough improvement left in Simmons and Embiid to close the gap between the Sixers and the real contenders in the league Lakers, Clippers, and Bucks without adding something fairly significant to the core which we can do at least partially because we paying this guy almost 2x his worth. It doesnt make me feel good to say this stuff even though Im 100% right I just don't understand where some people are still coming from. I admit Im a stat oriented guy. All the stats I respect say Tobi is just another good player. Its what I see when I watch games as well. Not a real difference maker about sums it up. Last Ill post on the topic becaue if there is anything Im sure about its that Tobias Harris is way over-paid.

brannigan73 wrote:They'll never win anything with this guy because they won't have the money to upgrade in other spots. There is not enough improvement left in Simmons and Embiid to close the gap between the Sixers and the real contenders in the league Lakers, Clippers, and Bucks without adding something fairly significant to the core which we can do at least partially because we paying this guy almost 2x his worth. It doesnt make me feel good to say this stuff even though Im 100% right I just don't understand where some people are still coming from. I admit Im a stat oriented guy. All the stats I respect say Tobi is just another good player. Its what I see when I watch games as well. Not a real difference maker about sums it up. Last Ill post on the topic becaue if there is anything Im sure about its that Tobias Harris is way over-paid.

Tobias is probably the most consistent and productive player on this roster right now. ***Knock on wood*. He's displayed the best ability... Availability! Giving you consistently near 20 7.5 and 3 as a third option... 36.5% from 3. Has risen these numbers to the occasion many times. I really and truly don't know a team that has any contending intentions that wouldn't be happy with this guy at his rate. If he's being paid this as your first or 2nd option.... Run. Because you have no chance of getting that player to build around.

But in all honesty, Tobias may give you flexibility compared to the alternative. On this team Shamet and those picks mean nothing. Tobias is not untradable, he's 26 and quite tradable. Plenty of teams would love him, and you could get either veterans or better youth than Shamet for him. A team like Miami would love to have him...GSW, LAL, Again this season would be dead likely without Toby and Horford for that matter due to missed time from guys. The biggest disappointments are from the Big 2 and their inconsistencies.

Because of the 2 all stars, there would've been no flexibility after signing them, unless they really could have gotten a free agent... They tried 2 Summers ago, and struck out. Nobody was coming here to play with Ben and Joel. Nobody even as good as Tobias. They needed to trade for some talent to run with Joel and Ben for the next 2 years before Ben got paid, and there are worse options out there. If they're willing to pay, why do you care?

I say Brand maximized this situation this off-season. Especially when you factor in Richardson, Milton, and of course Matisse.

Tobias is getting ripped right now bc the Sixers just lost to another one of the worst teams in the league, on the road, on a night where Tobias was wearing the C on his jersey. You just want players to step up when your best ones aren't available. And here's the highest paid player on a night after a good game in Sacramento, where ya end up leaving this game with yet another loss. Grab a win there and we're all feeling a lot better right now and nobody is ripping Tobias Harris. Because when his number was called to be the guy, to match his salary, he stepped up and got us the win.

Overpaid for his role here. Good player but ok fit. We need to use him to acquire a better 3rd piece who is ideally A star combo forward like zBeal, Lavine or CJ McCollum.

M2J wrote:

brannigan73 wrote:They'll never win anything with this guy because they won't have the money to upgrade in other spots. There is not enough improvement left in Simmons and Embiid to close the gap between the Sixers and the real contenders in the league Lakers, Clippers, and Bucks without adding something fairly significant to the core which we can do at least partially because we paying this guy almost 2x his worth. It doesnt make me feel good to say this stuff even though Im 100% right I just don't understand where some people are still coming from. I admit Im a stat oriented guy. All the stats I respect say Tobi is just another good player. Its what I see when I watch games as well. Not a real difference maker about sums it up. Last Ill post on the topic becaue if there is anything Im sure about its that Tobias Harris is way over-paid.

Tobias is probably the most consistent and productive player on this roster right now. ***Knock on wood*. He's displayed the best ability... Availability! Giving you consistently near 20 7.5 and 3 as a third option... 36.5% from 3. Has risen these numbers to the occasion many times. I really and truly don't know a team that has any contending intentions that wouldn't be happy with this guy at his rate. If he's being paid this as your first or 2nd option.... Run. Because you have no chance of getting that player to build around.

But in all honesty, Tobias may give you flexibility compared to the alternative. On this team Shamet and those picks mean nothing. Tobias is not untradable, he's 26 and quite tradable. Plenty of teams would love him, and you could get either veterans or better youth than Shamet for him. A team like Miami would love to have him...GSW, LAL, Again this season would be dead likely without Toby and Horford for that matter due to missed time from guys. The biggest disappointments are from the Big 2 and their inconsistencies.

Because of the 2 all stars, there would've been no flexibility after signing them, unless they really could have gotten a free agent... They tried 2 Summers ago, and struck out. Nobody was coming here to play with Ben and Joel. Nobody even as good as Tobias. They needed to trade for some talent to run with Joel and Ben for the next 2 years before Ben got paid, and there are worse options out there. If they're willing to pay, why do you care?

I say Brand maximized this situation this off-season. Especially when you factor in Richardson, Milton, and of course Matisse.

I don't disagree with a lot of what you said (at least not completely), and it's impossible to know what moves would have been on the table for them, but to say Brand maximized this situation feels just completely off the mark.

When your two stars are a low post big and PG that doesn't shoot, you really find it wise to not allocate any of your resources towards high end shooting and perimeter playmaking? Tobias is a nice scoring forward to have and Horford is a (sometimes) good player to have step in at center, but we're in a situation where arguably our best perimeter playmaker and best shooter are both minimum salary players.

Maybe they'll be able to flip some of these guys to get better fitting pieces in the offseason, but as of right now, this past off-season was a disaster.

youngcrev wrote:

M2J wrote:

brannigan73 wrote:They'll never win anything with this guy because they won't have the money to upgrade in other spots. There is not enough improvement left in Simmons and Embiid to close the gap between the Sixers and the real contenders in the league Lakers, Clippers, and Bucks without adding something fairly significant to the core which we can do at least partially because we paying this guy almost 2x his worth. It doesnt make me feel good to say this stuff even though Im 100% right I just don't understand where some people are still coming from. I admit Im a stat oriented guy. All the stats I respect say Tobi is just another good player. Its what I see when I watch games as well. Not a real difference maker about sums it up. Last Ill post on the topic becaue if there is anything Im sure about its that Tobias Harris is way over-paid.

Tobias is probably the most consistent and productive player on this roster right now. ***Knock on wood*. He's displayed the best ability... Availability! Giving you consistently near 20 7.5 and 3 as a third option... 36.5% from 3. Has risen these numbers to the occasion many times. I really and truly don't know a team that has any contending intentions that wouldn't be happy with this guy at his rate. If he's being paid this as your first or 2nd option.... Run. Because you have no chance of getting that player to build around.

But in all honesty, Tobias may give you flexibility compared to the alternative. On this team Shamet and those picks mean nothing. Tobias is not untradable, he's 26 and quite tradable. Plenty of teams would love him, and you could get either veterans or better youth than Shamet for him. A team like Miami would love to have him...GSW, LAL, Again this season would be dead likely without Toby and Horford for that matter due to missed time from guys. The biggest disappointments are from the Big 2 and their inconsistencies.

Because of the 2 all stars, there would've been no flexibility after signing them, unless they really could have gotten a free agent... They tried 2 Summers ago, and struck out. Nobody was coming here to play with Ben and Joel. Nobody even as good as Tobias. They needed to trade for some talent to run with Joel and Ben for the next 2 years before Ben got paid, and there are worse options out there. If they're willing to pay, why do you care?

I say Brand maximized this situation this off-season. Especially when you factor in Richardson, Milton, and of course Matisse.

I don't disagree with a lot of what you said (at least not completely), and it's impossible to know what moves would have been on the table for them, but to say Brand maximized this situation feels just completely off the mark.

When your two stars are a low post big and PG that doesn't shoot, you really find it wise to not allocate any of your resources towards high end shooting and perimeter playmaking? Tobias is a nice scoring forward to have and Horford is a (sometimes) good player to have step in at center, but we're in a situation where arguably our best perimeter playmaker and best shooter are both minimum salary players.

Maybe they'll be able to flip some of these guys to get better fitting pieces in the offseason, but as of right now, this past off-season was a disaster.

I would really want to see Tobias with the keys to the car at the stretch 4 spot for a long stretch, playing off of Embiid and keeping the defense honest, before declaring him as a failure w this team as constructed.

Simmons
Defensive minded guard who can shoot
SF who can shoot (Matisse?)
Tobias
Embiid

you should just be able to figure that out offensively. Then switch it around as necessary on the defensive end.

youngcrev wrote:

M2J wrote:

brannigan73 wrote:They'll never win anything with this guy because they won't have the money to upgrade in other spots. There is not enough improvement left in Simmons and Embiid to close the gap between the Sixers and the real contenders in the league Lakers, Clippers, and Bucks without adding something fairly significant to the core which we can do at least partially because we paying this guy almost 2x his worth. It doesnt make me feel good to say this stuff even though Im 100% right I just don't understand where some people are still coming from. I admit Im a stat oriented guy. All the stats I respect say Tobi is just another good player. Its what I see when I watch games as well. Not a real difference maker about sums it up. Last Ill post on the topic becaue if there is anything Im sure about its that Tobias Harris is way over-paid.

Tobias is probably the most consistent and productive player on this roster right now. ***Knock on wood*. He's displayed the best ability... Availability! Giving you consistently near 20 7.5 and 3 as a third option... 36.5% from 3. Has risen these numbers to the occasion many times. I really and truly don't know a team that has any contending intentions that wouldn't be happy with this guy at his rate. If he's being paid this as your first or 2nd option.... Run. Because you have no chance of getting that player to build around.

But in all honesty, Tobias may give you flexibility compared to the alternative. On this team Shamet and those picks mean nothing. Tobias is not untradable, he's 26 and quite tradable. Plenty of teams would love him, and you could get either veterans or better youth than Shamet for him. A team like Miami would love to have him...GSW, LAL, Again this season would be dead likely without Toby and Horford for that matter due to missed time from guys. The biggest disappointments are from the Big 2 and their inconsistencies.

Because of the 2 all stars, there would've been no flexibility after signing them, unless they really could have gotten a free agent... They tried 2 Summers ago, and struck out. Nobody was coming here to play with Ben and Joel. Nobody even as good as Tobias. They needed to trade for some talent to run with Joel and Ben for the next 2 years before Ben got paid, and there are worse options out there. If they're willing to pay, why do you care?

I say Brand maximized this situation this off-season. Especially when you factor in Richardson, Milton, and of course Matisse.

I don't disagree with a lot of what you said (at least not completely), and it's impossible to know what moves would have been on the table for them, but to say Brand maximized this situation feels just completely off the mark.

When your two stars are a low post big and PG that doesn't shoot, you really find it wise to not allocate any of your resources towards high end shooting and perimeter playmaking? Tobias is a nice scoring forward to have and Horford is a (sometimes) good player to have step in at center, but we're in a situation where arguably our best perimeter playmaker and best shooter are both minimum salary players.

Maybe they'll be able to flip some of these guys to get better fitting pieces in the offseason, but as of right now, this past off-season was a disaster.

I don't disagree that shooting is definitely necessary. But seeing as Harris has the ability to be a high level shooter. Trading for Richardson, who is a better shooter than a guy like Butler, and actually shot great off of catch and shoot opportunities last year. Horford was good from that range the past 2 years too, though that was as a center. Plus seeing how horrible they were without Joel in the floor. I can see the mindset. When you have JJ Reddick starting and not playing defense. Adding decent shooters, and have this type of defensive potential wasn't a bad idea. It hasn't played out perfectly though for a number of reasons, though I'm not sure that with some consistent health, it wouldn't play out well in the playoffs.

I think health has been the biggest issue with this season, then the all big lineup experiment. With the lineup adjustment and health, it could be saved.