ImageImageImage

Around the League Discussion - 2018-2019 (Playoffs)

Moderators: HartfordWhalers, BullyKing, sixers hoops, CoreyGallagher, Sixerscan, Foshan

User avatar
76ciology
RealGM
Posts: 40,212
And1: 12,752
Joined: Jun 06, 2002
Contact:

Re: Around the League Discussion - 2018-2019 (Playoffs) 

Post#841 » by 76ciology » Mon Aug 5, 2019 5:48 am



Melo is such a waste. He got all time great talent but wasted it.

Seems to me his fate was decided once he asked to be traded to the knicks. It was a lifestyle move. Knicks had to unload a boatload of assets to get him that hurt the knicks ability to surround him with talent in the long run.

I also feel like his personal life got into him with his rocky relationship with lala.

I’d probably move on from basketball if i were him.
Twitter: Pjeffersonlim| S i x e r s |
¨Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth.¨
- Marcus Aurelius
Negrodamus
RealGM
Posts: 12,177
And1: 4,809
Joined: Aug 05, 2004

Re: Around the League Discussion - 2018-2019 (Playoffs) 

Post#842 » by Negrodamus » Mon Aug 5, 2019 3:17 pm

76ciology wrote:

Melo is such a waste. He got all time great talent but wasted it.

Seems to me his fate was decided once he asked to be traded to the knicks. It was a lifestyle move. Knicks had to unload a boatload of assets to get him that hurt the knicks ability to surround him with talent in the long run.

I also feel like his personal life got into him with his rocky relationship with lala.

I’d probably move on from basketball if i were him.


To what? I’m not saying NBA players aren’t capable of pursuing other ventures, but these guys have been all honing their craft forever and it’s all they’ve known for the majority of their life. If he still has the juice to do it, it’s not surprising that he still wants a go at it.
Sixerscan
Senior Mod - 76ers
Senior Mod - 76ers
Posts: 29,454
And1: 11,836
Joined: Jan 25, 2005

Re: Around the League Discussion - 2018-2019 (Playoffs) 

Post#843 » by Sixerscan » Mon Aug 5, 2019 3:33 pm

Saying a guy that is a first ballot hall of Famer, made 10 all star teams and 6 all nba teams “wasted” his talent is a little much.

No one wants him now because he’s old and either can’t or won’t transition to a lesser role, but the guy still had a great career.
Kobblehead
RealGM
Posts: 26,478
And1: 11,316
Joined: Apr 15, 2010
 

Re: Around the League Discussion - 2018-2019 (Playoffs) 

Post#844 » by Kobblehead » Sat Aug 10, 2019 4:41 pm

Sixerscan wrote:Saying a guy that is a first ballot hall of Famer, made 10 all star teams and 6 all nba teams “wasted” his talent is a little much.

No one wants him now because he’s old and either can’t or won’t transition to a lesser role, but the guy still had a great career.

He kinda did waste his talent, though. He was a legit #1 option that was virtually unguardable in his prime and yet he only went on 2 playoff runs in his 16 year NBA career.

He played in such a low volume of meaningful games.
the_process
RealGM
Posts: 17,306
And1: 3,985
Joined: May 01, 2010

Re: Around the League Discussion - 2018-2019 (Playoffs) 

Post#845 » by the_process » Sun Aug 11, 2019 12:07 am

Kobblehead wrote:
Sixerscan wrote:Saying a guy that is a first ballot hall of Famer, made 10 all star teams and 6 all nba teams “wasted” his talent is a little much.

No one wants him now because he’s old and either can’t or won’t transition to a lesser role, but the guy still had a great career.

He kinda did waste his talent, though. He was a legit #1 option that was virtually unguardable in his prime and yet he only went on 2 playoff runs in his 16 year NBA career.

He played in such a low volume of meaningful games.


Did Tracy McGrady waste his talent? Did AI?
HartfordWhalers wrote:The Tobias Harris trade was set your pants on fire while wearing them bad at the time. And still is.
Kobblehead
RealGM
Posts: 26,478
And1: 11,316
Joined: Apr 15, 2010
 

Re: Around the League Discussion - 2018-2019 (Playoffs) 

Post#846 » by Kobblehead » Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:40 am

I think McGrady was a colossal waste of talent. He was just as talented (if not more) as the elite wings of his era yet he didn't even sniff the success of guys like Pierce, Bryant and Carter.

Iverson didn't waste his potential, he just left a lot of meat on the bone. Peaked too early, in terms of his basketball relevance. Decided to prioritize being the cultural icon over being a basketball player that played in games that mattered. His career was disappointing but not an outright waste like Melo and Tmac.
User avatar
76ciology
RealGM
Posts: 40,212
And1: 12,752
Joined: Jun 06, 2002
Contact:

Re: Around the League Discussion - 2018-2019 (Playoffs) 

Post#847 » by 76ciology » Sun Aug 11, 2019 3:52 am

Celtics top players playing the USA team for me says that they dont think they see themselves making deep in the playoffs.
Twitter: Pjeffersonlim| S i x e r s |
¨Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth.¨
- Marcus Aurelius
Kobblehead
RealGM
Posts: 26,478
And1: 11,316
Joined: Apr 15, 2010
 

Re: Around the League Discussion - 2018-2019 (Playoffs) 

Post#848 » by Kobblehead » Sun Aug 11, 2019 4:31 pm

I kinda see that as an added bonus of being able to build chemistry and camaraderie with each other. I really like the Celtics chances in the East. Top 4 team along with Bucks, Sixers and Pacers.
Sixerscan
Senior Mod - 76ers
Senior Mod - 76ers
Posts: 29,454
And1: 11,836
Joined: Jan 25, 2005

Re: Around the League Discussion - 2018-2019 (Playoffs) 

Post#849 » by Sixerscan » Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:45 pm

Kobblehead wrote:I think McGrady was a colossal waste of talent. He was just as talented (if not more) as the elite wings of his era yet he didn't even sniff the success of guys like Pierce, Bryant and Carter.

Iverson didn't waste his potential, he just left a lot of meat on the bone. Peaked too early, in terms of his basketball relevance. Decided to prioritize being the cultural icon over being a basketball player that played in games that mattered. His career was disappointing but not an outright waste like Melo and Tmac.


How much real success did Vince Carter really have?

The Celtics were pretty bad throughout Pierce's prime before former Celtic Kevin McHale gift wrapped KG to them.

If those Nuggets teams were in the East Melo would have won a lot more in the playoffs than he did. Either way being the best player on a WCF team is nothing to sneeze at.

I think Melo's career on par with all of those guys besides Kobe and AI personally.
Kobblehead
RealGM
Posts: 26,478
And1: 11,316
Joined: Apr 15, 2010
 

Re: Around the League Discussion - 2018-2019 (Playoffs) 

Post#850 » by Kobblehead » Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:14 am

Sixerscan wrote:How much real success did Vince Carter really have?

The Celtics were pretty bad throughout Pierce's prime before former Celtic Kevin McHale gift wrapped KG to them.

If those Nuggets teams were in the East Melo would have won a lot more in the playoffs than he did. Either way being the best player on a WCF team is nothing to sneeze at.

I think Melo's career on par with all of those guys besides Kobe and AI personally.


From 2001 through 2010, Vince Carter made 4 deep playoff runs. He may not have ever won a championship, but he was periodically knocking on the door enough to make noise.

Can't do Paul Piece like that. He made it to the conference finals and conference semi-finals in back to back years back in the early 2000s way before they even put together the big three. He just couldn't get past Jason Kidd and the Nets.
Kobblehead
RealGM
Posts: 26,478
And1: 11,316
Joined: Apr 15, 2010
 

Re: Around the League Discussion - 2018-2019 (Playoffs) 

Post#851 » by Kobblehead » Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:22 am

You think Iverson had a better career than Paul Piece?

I don't even think he had a better career than Dwight Howard. Howard and Iverson are actually pretty similar when you think about it. Carried their drafted team to the Finals early in their career. Had personality, coachability and wear and tear issues and became virtually basketball irrelevant when their 20s were up. At least Dwight had that later conference finals run with Houston. Iverson didn't do anything in the league after year 7 of his career.
Sixerscan
Senior Mod - 76ers
Senior Mod - 76ers
Posts: 29,454
And1: 11,836
Joined: Jan 25, 2005

Re: Around the League Discussion - 2018-2019 (Playoffs) 

Post#852 » by Sixerscan » Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:46 am

Kobblehead wrote:
Sixerscan wrote:How much real success did Vince Carter really have?

The Celtics were pretty bad throughout Pierce's prime before former Celtic Kevin McHale gift wrapped KG to them.

If those Nuggets teams were in the East Melo would have won a lot more in the playoffs than he did. Either way being the best player on a WCF team is nothing to sneeze at.

I think Melo's career on par with all of those guys besides Kobe and AI personally.


From 2001 through 2010, Vince Carter made 4 deep playoff runs. He may not have ever won a championship, but he was periodically knocking on the door enough to make noise.

Can't do Paul Piece like that. He made it to the conference finals and conference semi-finals in back to back years back in the early 2000s way before they even put together the big three. He just couldn't get past Jason Kidd and the Nets.


Kind of cherry picking here, are you counting Carter being a role player on the Magic? He never won 50 games on the Nets or Raptors. Go look at some of those teams his teams or those early Celtics teams beat.

Like I wouldn't count beating a 41-41 Pacers team in 6 and then getting dusted by the Heat in 5 like the Nets did in 06 as a "deep playoff run" (and you can argue he wasn't even the best player on the team). Those Nuggets teams would win 50+ games and their reward was playing another 50+ win team out west.
Kobblehead
RealGM
Posts: 26,478
And1: 11,316
Joined: Apr 15, 2010
 

Re: Around the League Discussion - 2018-2019 (Playoffs) 

Post#853 » by Kobblehead » Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:07 am

I purposely left out Carter's semifinals run in Memphis when he was an actual role player. He was the 2nd leading scorer on the Magic in the regular season and 3rd leading scorer in the playoffs. He was old, but still a focal point of that team.

It's not like Melo had to wallow away in the West his whole career. He came to the East as a 26 year old (right at the start of the traditional prime window) and spent 7 years in the conference. He still did nothing outside of one semifinals run in 2013. Switched to the easier conference and still had the exact same low success percentage.
Sixerscan
Senior Mod - 76ers
Senior Mod - 76ers
Posts: 29,454
And1: 11,836
Joined: Jan 25, 2005

Re: Around the League Discussion - 2018-2019 (Playoffs) 

Post#854 » by Sixerscan » Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:49 am

Carter averaged 16.6 ppg for the Magic, the year before he got there they won just as many games and made the finals. He got traded to the Magic for Courtney Lee and filler. He didn't even make the all star team that year. You're being pretty clearly over-reductive just by pointing to the playoff runs that his teams went on. Thank you for leaving out a year that he averaged 6 ppg though.

When Pierce was 26 his team won 36 games, 33 when he was 28 and 24 when he was 29. Then they acquire 2 more hall of famers and all of a sudden he knows how to win again. Give prime Melo KG and Allen and see what happens. Or heck Dwight Howard or Jason Kidd for that matter.

Melo made some dumb career choices but if we're just talking the player he had a great career on par with those guys.
Negrodamus
RealGM
Posts: 12,177
And1: 4,809
Joined: Aug 05, 2004

Re: Around the League Discussion - 2018-2019 (Playoffs) 

Post#855 » by Negrodamus » Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:01 am

Kobblehead wrote:I think McGrady was a colossal waste of talent. He was just as talented (if not more) as the elite wings of his era yet he didn't even sniff the success of guys like Pierce, Bryant and Carter.

Iverson didn't waste his potential, he just left a lot of meat on the bone. Peaked too early, in terms of his basketball relevance. Decided to prioritize being the cultural icon over being a basketball player that played in games that mattered. His career was disappointing but not an outright waste like Melo and Tmac.


McGrady a waste of talent? He was in arguably a worse situation than Iverson on the Magic (probably worst team in the league without T-Mac). Then, when he finally got a chance to play with talent, his body started to fail him. What he did in Orlando was extraordinary.

Carmelo at least had NBA players on his team during most of his tenure with the Nuggets.
Kobblehead
RealGM
Posts: 26,478
And1: 11,316
Joined: Apr 15, 2010
 

Re: Around the League Discussion - 2018-2019 (Playoffs) 

Post#856 » by Kobblehead » Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:04 pm

Sixerscan wrote:Carter averaged 16.6 ppg for the Magic, the year before he got there they won just as many games and made the finals. He got traded to the Magic for Courtney Lee and filler. He didn't even make the all star team that year. You're being pretty clearly over-reductive just by pointing to the playoff runs that his teams went on. Thank you for leaving out a year that he averaged 6 ppg though.

When Pierce was 26 his team won 36 games, 33 when he was 28 and 24 when he was 29. Then they acquire 2 more hall of famers and all of a sudden he knows how to win again. Give prime Melo KG and Allen and see what happens. Or heck Dwight Howard or Jason Kidd for that matter.

Melo made some dumb career choices but if we're just talking the player he had a great career on par with those guys.

Which still made him their 2nd leading scorer behind Dwight. Hedo left and Rashard took his first step down and would fall off a cliff immediately after that season. Vince was still a huge part of that team.

Regarding the Celtics win totals in Pierce' prime window: it's kinda hard to win games when Ricky Davis is your 2nd banana. Especially after coming off years of having to motivate and get the best out of Antoine Walker. Get Paul Pierce to the playoffs and he's rarely an easy out. That's the mark of a great player. Get Melo to the playoffs and he's rarely not an easy out.
Sixerscan
Senior Mod - 76ers
Senior Mod - 76ers
Posts: 29,454
And1: 11,836
Joined: Jan 25, 2005

Re: Around the League Discussion - 2018-2019 (Playoffs) 

Post#857 » by Sixerscan » Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:34 pm

I just think you’re overrating the value of beating ~41 win eastern conference opponents. You could just as easily and arbitrarily value Melo making the playoffs the first 10 years of his career.

Ironically the only playoff round Melo won in the east was against a 41 win Celtics team.

Melo and Pierce made 10 all star teams, Carter 8. Melo made 6 All NBA teams, Pierce 4, Carter 2. You can get deeper into the stats if you want but I’d say Melo and Pierce are about equal with Carter being a step behind.

The whitewashing of Carter’s career in recent years has been sort of amazing actually. It’s a great example of how being polished with the media can help your legacy. When I think of guys that didn’t get the most out of their talents (he was easily the most talented of these 3) he’s on Mount Rushmore.
Kobblehead
RealGM
Posts: 26,478
And1: 11,316
Joined: Apr 15, 2010
 

Re: Around the League Discussion - 2018-2019 (Playoffs) 

Post#858 » by Kobblehead » Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:20 pm

Sixerscan wrote:I just think you’re overrating the value of beating ~41 win eastern conference opponents. You could just as easily and arbitrarily value Melo making the playoffs the first 10 years of his career.

Ironically the only playoff round Melo won in the east was against a 41 win Celtics team.

Melo and Pierce made 10 all star teams, Carter 8. Melo made 6 All NBA teams, Pierce 4, Carter 2. You can get deeper into the stats if you want but I’d say Melo and Pierce are about equal with Carter being a step behind.

The whitewashing of Carter’s career in recent years has been sort of amazing actually. It’s a great example of how being polished with the media can help your legacy. When I think of guys that didn’t get the most out of their talents (he was easily the most talented of these 3) he’s on Mount Rushmore.


I originally brought Vince Carter (along with Bryant and Pierce) into the discussion to disparage McGrady's lack of success. It was never my intent to have the Carter vs. Anthony discussion.

In terms of generational success parallels:

Kobe Bryant = LeBron James
Paul Pierce = Dwayne Wade
Vince Carter = Chris Paul
Allen Iverson = Dwight Howard
Tracy McGrady = Carmelo Anthony
Sixerscan
Senior Mod - 76ers
Senior Mod - 76ers
Posts: 29,454
And1: 11,836
Joined: Jan 25, 2005

Re: Around the League Discussion - 2018-2019 (Playoffs) 

Post#859 » by Sixerscan » Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:36 pm

Kobblehead wrote:
Sixerscan wrote:I just think you’re overrating the value of beating ~41 win eastern conference opponents. You could just as easily and arbitrarily value Melo making the playoffs the first 10 years of his career.

Ironically the only playoff round Melo won in the east was against a 41 win Celtics team.

Melo and Pierce made 10 all star teams, Carter 8. Melo made 6 All NBA teams, Pierce 4, Carter 2. You can get deeper into the stats if you want but I’d say Melo and Pierce are about equal with Carter being a step behind.

The whitewashing of Carter’s career in recent years has been sort of amazing actually. It’s a great example of how being polished with the media can help your legacy. When I think of guys that didn’t get the most out of their talents (he was easily the most talented of these 3) he’s on Mount Rushmore.


I originally brought Vince Carter (along with Bryant and Pierce) into the discussion to disparage McGrady's lack of success. It was never my intent to have the Carter vs. Anthony discussion.

In terms of generational success parallels:

Kobe Bryant = LeBron James
Paul Pierce = Dwayne Wade
Vince Carter = Chris Paul
Allen Iverson = Dwight Howard
Tracy McGrady = Carmelo Anthony


Yeah I’d consider Wade as having the much better career than Pierce (or Melo for that matter). Wade had more success and his peak was higher.
Kobblehead
RealGM
Posts: 26,478
And1: 11,316
Joined: Apr 15, 2010
 

Re: Around the League Discussion - 2018-2019 (Playoffs) 

Post#860 » by Kobblehead » Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:58 pm

Sixerscan wrote:The whitewashing of Carter’s career in recent years has been sort of amazing actually. It’s a great example of how being polished with the media can help your legacy. When I think of guys that didn’t get the most out of their talents (he was easily the most talented of these 3) he’s on Mount Rushmore.

I don't see a good argument for Carter being on that. There are plenty of guys from his generation, alone, that were highly talented and achieved way less than Vince Carter.

Stephon Marbury, Shareef Abdur-Rahim, Tracy McGrady and Steve Francis. To name a few.

Return to Philadelphia 76ers