The Ben Simmons Megathread - Part III

[Negrodamus]

I don't know how you can call one guy an All-Star level talent if he's never been to an all star game, yet call a former All-Defensive first teamer an "ok defensive player".

Rookie Tatum kept putting 20 on him everytime they met. Let's not act like Cov was Kawhi now.

Anecdotal evidence isn't the best way to argue a point.

[PhillyPhilly]

I don't know how you can call one guy an All-Star level talent if he's never been to an all star game, yet call a former All-Defensive first teamer an "ok defensive player".

Rookie Tatum kept putting 20 on him everytime they met. Let's not act like Cov was Kawhi now.

Anecdotal evidence isn't the best way to argue a point.

I just think the guy was average. Decent defender when he was locked in but trash offensively imo.

[youngcrev]

Rookie Tatum kept putting 20 on him everytime they met. Let's not act like Cov was Kawhi now.

Anecdotal evidence isn't the best way to argue a point.

I just think the guy was average. Decent defender when he was locked in but trash offensively imo.

Decent is underselling to a ridiculous extent. He's one of the best defensive wings in the league. Solid man defender, extremely versatile, and elite at getting deflections.

His offense is certainly limited, and on the nights where he isn't hitting his 3s, trash would be apt.

[eagereyez]

BWAHAHAHA this is jokes . How someone can seriously argue that ROCO, an ok defensive player and a liability on offense, is "better" than an all-star level talent like Harris who actually HELPED PUT THE CLIPPERS IN THE PLAYOFF SPOTS before he left. Oh, and West offered him a four year deal and he turned it down and was going into free agency this summer. That's why they traded him so please cut the bs as if West was desperate to get rid of him.

The Clippers were the 8th seed when Harris was traded. And despite losing their "All-Star who never made an All-Star team," the Clippers improved to the 7th seed by season's end. Usually when teams trade their best player for a rookie and picks, they get worse, not better.

Harris knew some dumb GM was going to overpay him, and West wasn't gonna have any of that. Enter: The 76ers.

Lol yeah the Clippers improved by moving up ONE SPOT while Tobias helped us go from 5th to 3rd. So what the hell is your point? And yeah, paying a 26 year old improving player who averages 20 points per game, can shoot the three at 40%, create his own shot and gets rebounds is obviously so wrong. I'm sure Cov could do so much better right?

The Sixers should improve - they traded a rookie and future picks for an "All-Star."

The Clippers shouldn't improve - they traded an "All-Star" for a rookie and future picks.

I thought that was obvious. And even then, the results don't line up with what should have happened following that logic:

Sixers with Harris: 16-11 (.59)
Sixers without Harris: 34-20 (.63)

Clippers with Harris: 30-25 (.55)
Clippers without Harris: 18-9 (.67)

There are obviously some other variables affecting this, but combine it with the RPM data and everything points toward Harris being average. And if you actually watch the games, you will notice that he is essentially a taller Redick. A paper bag on defense but an elite shooter. An average 3&D role player, who looks better than he is because his strength (shooting) is easy to see.

[Kobblehead]

eagereyez, you know damn well role players are not as valuable as creators.

Tobias is not a well-rounded player, but he's still a three level scorer that can play on and off the ball.

You seriously trying to argue that a defensive player that converts assists is more valuable than Tobias Harris? Or that a one dimensional shooter that runs around screens and hits off balance threes is comparable to Harris?

[kuclas]

Harris is a better player than Covington. Period.

Covington is a great help defender, deflections etc. but when u include offense and defense. Harris is better. He can handle the ball better. He can create his own offense.

But Harris has been on a big time slump. Hopefully he broke out of his slump offensively.

[PhillyPhilly]

The Clippers were the 8th seed when Harris was traded. And despite losing their "All-Star who never made an All-Star team," the Clippers improved to the 7th seed by season's end. Usually when teams trade their best player for a rookie and picks, they get worse, not better.

Harris knew some dumb GM was going to overpay him, and West wasn't gonna have any of that. Enter: The 76ers.

Lol yeah the Clippers improved by moving up ONE SPOT while Tobias helped us go from 5th to 3rd. So what the hell is your point? And yeah, paying a 26 year old improving player who averages 20 points per game, can shoot the three at 40%, create his own shot and gets rebounds is obviously so wrong. I'm sure Cov could do so much better right?

The Sixers should improve - they traded a rookie and future picks for an "All-Star."

The Clippers shouldn't improve - they traded an "All-Star" for a rookie and future picks.

I thought that was obvious. And even then, the results don't line up with what should have happened following that logic:

Sixers with Harris: 16-11 (.59)
Sixers without Harris: 34-20 (.63)

Clippers with Harris: 30-25 (.55)
Clippers without Harris: 18-9 (.67)

There are obviously some other variables affecting this, but combine it with the RPM data and everything points toward Harris being average. And if you actually watch the games, you will notice that he is essentially a taller Redick. A paper bag on defense but an elite shooter. An average 3&D role player, who looks better than he is because his strength (shooting) is easy to see.

LOL your argument just gets more and more feeble by the second. The Clippers were already in a playoff position when Harris left. If they had been in tenth or below and then made it into the playoffs you might have a point. But the fact is they were already there and most of that was due to Harris virtually carrying the team on his back alongside Williams. They then trade Harris and acquire Shamet whilst also getting Zuboc and they got into the playoffs by finishing where? IN EIGHT. So in reality they didn't really improve did they? Are you suggesting if they didn't trade Harris that they wouldn't have made it? Because if so the facts simply disagree. Also your claim that Harris is a "taller" Redick just personifies your complete and utter lack of knowledge when it comes to this game. That notion is a JOKE, plain and simple. Just as someone above has highlighted. And lastly what has your king Covington done since he left? Oh yes, he played five minutes and then was out for the rest of the year...HE WOULD HAVE BEEN A GREAT HELP TO US WOULDN'T HE?

[eagereyez]

Harris is a middling shot creator. He was assisted on 50% of 2s and 80% of 3s, which is closer to the role player end of the spectrum:

Danny Green: Ast'd on 62% of 2s and 91% of 3s (epitome of role player)
Paul George: Ast'd on 31% of 2s and 67% of 3s (shot creator but not primary ball handler)
Damian Lillard: Ast'd on 19% of 2s and 46% of 3s (shot creator and primary ball handler)

Harris doesn't get to the line at a star rate (FTr of .25 this year, equal to Redick). He doesn't pass or rebound at a star rate. All you have is a middling outside shot creator who draws fouls at the same rate as Redick. These offensive advantages don't come very close to bridging the gap between a First-Team All NBA defender and a turnstile.

So lets do a rundown here:

1) The Clippers are better without Harris
2) The Sixers did not improve their winning% with Harris
3) RPM has Harris as an average player
4) Harris has the same FTr as Redick
5) Harris is more similar to a role player than a star player in terms of shot creation
6) Harris is producing the same assists & rebounds per/36 as the guy he replaced (Chandler)

The story the data are telling here is pretty clear. If I knew how to transform it into smiley faces, I would.

[Kobblehead]

1) The Clippers are better without Harris
2) The Sixers did not improve their winning% with Harris
3) RPM has Harris as an average player
4) Harris has the same FTr as Redick
5) Harris is more similar to a role player than a star player in terms of shot creation
6) Harris is producing the same assists & rebounds per/36 as the guy he replaced (Chandler)

The story the data are telling here is pretty clear. If I knew how to transform it into smiley faces, I would.

1. No they're not, you're ignoring variables
2. Chemistry, adjusting to new players and schemes. Again, ignoring a ton a variables.
3. RPM has Danny Green as better than Kawhi Leonard. Silly plus/minus stats are silly plus/minus stats.
4. Meaning what? Kyrie and Russell have FTr under 20%.
5. You realize Tobias Harris was unassisted on over 60% of his field goals before the trade right? He's deferring to Simmons and Butler. Why are you assuming he can't create. Did you ever see him play before he became a Sixer?
6. Nobody ever claimed he was a well-rounded player. He can score his ass off from three levels on and off the ball. That's more than enough to make up for not being an all-around player.

The story you're deriving from the circumstantial data is misguided.

[Kobblehead]

Harris is a middling shot creator. He was assisted on 50% of 2s and 80% of 3s, which is closer to the role player end of the spectrum:

Tobias Harris in the last 162 games: assisted on 42% of his field goals
Giannis: assisted on 46% of his field goals

[Bum Adebayo]

One is a great defender, the other is bad

[PhillyPhilly]

Harris is a middling shot creator. He was assisted on 50% of 2s and 80% of 3s, which is closer to the role player end of the spectrum:

Danny Green: Ast'd on 62% of 2s and 91% of 3s (epitome of role player)
Paul George: Ast'd on 31% of 2s and 67% of 3s (shot creator but not primary ball handler)
Damian Lillard: Ast'd on 19% of 2s and 46% of 3s (shot creator and primary ball handler)

Harris doesn't get to the line at a star rate (FTr of .25 this year, equal to Redick). He doesn't pass or rebound at a star rate. All you have is a middling outside shot creator who draws fouls at the same rate as Redick. These offensive advantages don't come very close to bridging the gap between a First-Team All NBA defender and a turnstile.

So lets do a rundown here:

1) The Clippers are better without Harris
2) The Sixers did not improve their winning% with Harris
3) RPM has Harris as an average player
4) Harris has the same FTr as Redick
5) Harris is more similar to a role player than a star player in terms of shot creation
6) Harris is producing the same assists & rebounds per/36 as the guy he replaced (Chandler)

The story the data are telling here is pretty clear. If I knew how to transform it into smiley faces, I would.

Again, HOW ARE THEY "BETTER" WITHOUT HARRIS WHEN THEY WERE IN THE PLAYOFF POSITIONS WHEN HE LEFT AND THEN ONLY FINISHED EIGHT IN THE END? Your argument makes no sense whatsoever. And furthermore you claim that the Sixers moving from 5th to 3rd after Harris arrived "is to be expected because of the other stars", but then you turn around and blame HIM for the win percentage? SMH you're all over the place

[eagereyez]

1) The Clippers are better without Harris
2) The Sixers did not improve their winning% with Harris
3) RPM has Harris as an average player
4) Harris has the same FTr as Redick
5) Harris is more similar to a role player than a star player in terms of shot creation
6) Harris is producing the same assists & rebounds per/36 as the guy he replaced (Chandler)

The story the data are telling here is pretty clear. If I knew how to transform it into smiley faces, I would.

1. No they're not, you're ignoring variables
2. Chemistry, adjusting to new players and schemes. Again, ignoring a ton a variables.
3. RPM has Danny Green as better than Kawhi Leonard. Silly plus/minus stats are silly plus/minus stats.
4. Meaning what? Kyrie and Russell have FTr under 20%.
5. You realize Tobias Harris was unassisted on over 60% of his field goals before the trade right? He's deferring to Simmons and Butler. Why are you assuming he can't create. Did you ever see him play before he became a Sixer?
6. Nobody ever claimed he was a well-rounded player. He can score his ass off from three levels on and off the ball. That's more than enough to make up for not being an all-around player.

The story you're deriving from the circumstantial data is misguided.

1) Variables like what, the additions of Zubac and Shamet? If Zubac and Shamet are equivalent to Harris, then that just strengthens my argument.
2) Harris and Boban were added at the deadline. By that point the Sixers already had 40 games with Butler and 3/5 of their starters from the previous year. Lack of chemistry is a weak explanation. A stronger explanation is that Embiid missed games.
3) RPM is not an apples to oranges comparison stat - it requires critical thinking to understand. Danny Green is an elite role player. Put him in Kawhi's position and his RPM would plummet. The fact that some players have big impact in niche roles is not controversial. You ever see the movie Moneyball? This idea is what the movie was predicated on.
4) Meaning that his driving game is limited. He is a jump shooter who relies on people setting him up much more than Kyrie and D'Lo.
5) You are incorrect - field goals includes 3 pointers, and Harris was assisted on 81% of his 3s in LA. He was assisted on 34% of his 2s, but a) that might be an outlier and more importantly b) his performance on the Sixers is more relevant. The Sixers don't need another 2 pt shot creator with Embiid and Simmons. Playing alongside those two might be why his 2 pt Ast'd % went from 34% back up to 50%.
6) The Sixers don't need more scorers in the paint or the mid-range. They already have Embiid and Simmons. They need someone who can hit a catch and shoot 3, create on the perimeter in the half-court, and defend. Harris only does one of those things at a high level.

[Kobblehead]

29 points, 16 rebounds, 3 assists and a steal.....

It's time for you to update your out-of-date, Orlando-era scouting report on Tobias Harris. You clearly missed his rise to stardom and are unable to see his shotcreating talent despite him displaying that tool for over 160 games straight.

Role players are not difference-makers or needle-movers. They're insignificant compared to the impact of a star talent like Harris. I hope this game helped show you that.

[eagereyez]

It's called regressing (or in this case, progressing) to the mean. He was in a slump the first two games, averaging 11.5 a game on poor efficiency. After tonight he is averaging 17 a game on 40%+ from 3, right around his baseline level. But hey, if a one game sample makes you feel vindicated, all the power to you.

[moistie]

Ben Simmons sucks. Trade him. /s

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[kio80]

Imagine if the team is built around Embiid and he’s only available 50% of the games.
The best record in RS will be 41 games......
You can’t build around an injury prone player, come on guys, common sense... Embiid is never going to get better, his injuries can only be managed, Ben Simmons is the future.


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[JazzUte88]

Harris is a better player than Roco. But I'd rather pay Covington 10-15 million a season than Harris 20-25 and get offensive production elsewhere.

[XtremeDunkz]

I can't stand the flip flopping on this board. How quickly we forget how important Embiid was to our 3rd quarter surge in game 2. THE TEAM IS NOT BETTER WITHOUT EMBIID.

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[76ciology]

Ben Simmons sucks. Trade him. /s

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If we can get Kawhi or AD in return, you wouldnt trade him?