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DISASTER FA Scenario... what do you do

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Re: DISASTER FA Scenario... what do you do 

Post#161 » by Bum Adebayo » Fri May 24, 2019 4:22 pm

PhillyFan11 wrote:
Bum Adebayo wrote:Two bigs can win, so no issue in that regard. What matters is how good players are, if you have two elite bigs there is no reason why you cant win, just like if you have two elite guards you can also win. Of course, you would need to surround them with good role players but this fits with any player. The idea that you can't win with your best players being bigs is just a false narrative, just like when the narrative was that you can't win with your PG as your best player, and then Curry happened. People just like to follow trends.
Also, I think people will find sooner than later that we've had an abnormally talented pool of guards in last 10 to 12 years, similar to how many abnormally talented centers were in the past.


We just saw our superstar big get shutdown because he can’t create his own shot.

It’s a guard/iso driven league at this point. A team needs a go to scoring option that can create their own shot in almost any situation. Building a team around 2 big men in 2019/2020 is pretty close to purposely handcuffing yourself


He got shut down because he is not good enough, big difference. Embiid is not an elite offensive player against the likes of Horford and Gasol, because he is predictable with his moves when he can't draw fouls. The issue is thinking Embiid got shut down because he is a center, instead of admitting he is just not there with his skillset yet.
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Re: DISASTER FA Scenario... what do you do 

Post#162 » by PhillyFan11 » Fri May 24, 2019 4:39 pm

Bum Adebayo wrote:
PhillyFan11 wrote:
Bum Adebayo wrote:Two bigs can win, so no issue in that regard. What matters is how good players are, if you have two elite bigs there is no reason why you cant win, just like if you have two elite guards you can also win. Of course, you would need to surround them with good role players but this fits with any player. The idea that you can't win with your best players being bigs is just a false narrative, just like when the narrative was that you can't win with your PG as your best player, and then Curry happened. People just like to follow trends.
Also, I think people will find sooner than later that we've had an abnormally talented pool of guards in last 10 to 12 years, similar to how many abnormally talented centers were in the past.


We just saw our superstar big get shutdown because he can’t create his own shot.

It’s a guard/iso driven league at this point. A team needs a go to scoring option that can create their own shot in almost any situation. Building a team around 2 big men in 2019/2020 is pretty close to purposely handcuffing yourself


He got shut down because he is not good enough, big difference. Embiid is not an elite offensive player against the likes of Horford and Gasol, because he is predictable with his moves when he can't draw fouls. The issue is thinking Embiid got shut down because he is a center, instead of admitting he is just not there with his skillset yet.


You’re talking about an extremely limited # of 6’11+ human beings ever on earth with a better skill set than Joel. So could 2 bigs work in theory? Sure. Is it even remotely realistic? No way.
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Re: DISASTER FA Scenario... what do you do 

Post#163 » by Mik317 » Fri May 24, 2019 7:21 pm

two bigs can work but both have to be knockdown shooters...and willing. and also has a guy who can create his own shots from 3 levels.

AD and Embiid can work. But the rest of the team needs to be full of great shooters and PNR guys.

AD's ability to leave also makes that deal something you probably don't want to pursue.

Again there is more that should go into these things beyond "this guy is good so trade for him yo".

so again with all of that I still think our best option is hoping for Ben to improve rather than any rushing to judgement. It simply beats out any other decision on a reality standpoint atm.
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Re: DISASTER FA Scenario... what do you do 

Post#164 » by ExplosionsInDaSky » Fri May 24, 2019 8:00 pm

Mik317 wrote:two bigs can work but both have to be knockdown shooters...and willing. and also has a guy who can create his own shots from 3 levels.

AD and Embiid can work. But the rest of the team needs to be full of great shooters and PNR guys.

AD's ability to leave also makes that deal something you probably don't want to pursue.

Again there is more that should go into these things beyond "this guy is good so trade for him yo".

so again with all of that I still think our best option is hoping for Ben to improve rather than any rushing to judgement. It simply beats out any other decision on a reality standpoint atm.


Put me in the camp that believes Simmons can and will improve dramatically over the next three years. I think three years from now we will be happy that we didn't trade him. It will pay off in the long run. That's just what I believe.
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Re: DISASTER FA Scenario... what do you do 

Post#165 » by strotorious » Sat May 25, 2019 12:41 pm

Simmons with Embiid worked and Davis with Embiid can work, if working means winning 50 games and losing in the second round. Of the true contenders, Durant on GS is an okay but not great fit, but with enough total talent it doesn't matter. The others, including GS without Durant, have one MVP caliber player and a team that fits nearly perfectly around him. Neither scenario works in that sense unless Simmons takes huge steps forward or they somehow add or develop some other all star level talent.

This whole thread just shows how limited our options are this off season. Other than resigning both Butler and Harris I don't see any scenario that isn't a big step back. That puts the front office in a very weak bargaining position.
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Re: DISASTER FA Scenario... what do you do 

Post#166 » by Bum Adebayo » Sat May 25, 2019 12:51 pm

BTW I wasn't talking about Embiid + Davis working or not, I was talking about bigs in general. There is no such thing as certain players at certain positions being your best players can't win, what matters is how good they are, that is all. Why would you want two great bigs is the same as why would you want two great guards. If they are good enough and are surrounded by adequate pieces, you can win. Embiid and Davis cannot win probably, because they are not good enough at creating their shot, simple as that, but that has nothing to do with being bigs.
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Re: DISASTER FA Scenario... what do you do 

Post#167 » by rzzzzz » Sat May 25, 2019 3:18 pm

Bum Adebayo wrote:He got shut down because he is not good enough, big difference. Embiid is not an elite offensive player against the likes of Horford and Gasol, because he is predictable with his moves when he can't draw fouls. The issue is thinking Embiid got shut down because he is a center, instead of admitting he is just not there with his skillset yet.


our star center is not elite against the best defenders when he's got a bum knee, the squirts and respiratory infection, or wearing a plastic mask. but i remember the back to back games he played in the Staple Center a year and a half ago where he was definitely looking like the NBA's most dominant force. get him healthy, keep him to 30 minutes in the regular season and by all means, have him go back to working on efficient moves down low, and then develop our offensive scheme around him. yes, he is all that if we do this right.
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Re: DISASTER FA Scenario... what do you do 

Post#168 » by Bum Adebayo » Sat May 25, 2019 4:11 pm

rzzzzz wrote:
Bum Adebayo wrote:He got shut down because he is not good enough, big difference. Embiid is not an elite offensive player against the likes of Horford and Gasol, because he is predictable with his moves when he can't draw fouls. The issue is thinking Embiid got shut down because he is a center, instead of admitting he is just not there with his skillset yet.


our star center is not elite against the best defenders when he's got a bum knee, the squirts and respiratory infection, or wearing a plastic mask. but i remember the back to back games he played in the Staple Center a year and a half ago where he was definitely looking like the NBA's most dominant force. get him healthy, keep him to 30 minutes in the regular season and by all means, have him go back to working on efficient moves down low, and then develop our offensive scheme around him. yes, he is all that if we do this right.


Staples center? he played against Deandre Jordan (strong and athletic but not a smart defender) and Lakers squad that are not good defenders at all (Lopez, Randle).
I've seen enough of Embiid to know his injury issues were not the main cause of him struggling on offense against Raptors. They affected him a bit sure, but it is his lack of offensive polish that hurts him against certain defenders that meet the necessary conditions (strong base, can defend smartly without fouling).
He is our best player and building around him seems right to me, but he needs to improve on certain things if we are to win a championship with him being our best player.
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Re: DISASTER FA Scenario... what do you do 

Post#169 » by VDT » Sat May 25, 2019 5:17 pm

I think at this point Embiid's regular season offensive stats overrate him a bit but it also depends on whether you are a half full- half empty type of guy.

I dont think Embiid is at the moment as dominant as his regular season stats imply but on the other hand Gasol is perhaps his hardest matchup in the league which is unfortunate as was the fact that Embiid was not healthy. He still probably played Gasol better than in the regular season. One should also keep on mind that the team is not built to maximise Embid's effectiveness, quite the opposite.

So on the negative side Embiid was 1) injured/ physically limited again which is imo the bigger issue and 2) he was not good offensively against Toronto. If he were better we would have won and we would possibly looking now for a final appearance against the Warriors while Durant is injured. Since you want a dominant first option to be a contender it raises the question whether Embiid can be that.

On the positive side Embiid is probably much more dominant against most if not all other teams. People mention the Celtics and they did a good job against him in the last playoffs, this year though he averaged 29/15 on 61%TS against them which shows you how much he improved since last year. One would also expect him to play better if he was actually healthy.

So to me Embiid could be a championship caliber first option provided that he stays healthy, he keeps improving his skillset and that there is an appropriate team building. How likely that is is open for discussion however atm the Sixers dont have many alternatives, no other player currently in the roster is as good ow with as much potential as Embiid offensively.
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Re: DISASTER FA Scenario... what do you do 

Post#170 » by smittybanton » Sat May 25, 2019 5:44 pm

Bum Adebayo wrote:
PhillyFan11 wrote:
Bum Adebayo wrote:Two bigs can win, so no issue in that regard. What matters is how good players are, if you have two elite bigs there is no reason why you cant win, just like if you have two elite guards you can also win. Of course, you would need to surround them with good role players but this fits with any player. The idea that you can't win with your best players being bigs is just a false narrative, just like when the narrative was that you can't win with your PG as your best player, and then Curry happened. People just like to follow trends.
Also, I think people will find sooner than later that we've had an abnormally talented pool of guards in last 10 to 12 years, similar to how many abnormally talented centers were in the past.


We just saw our superstar big get shutdown because he can’t create his own shot.

It’s a guard/iso driven league at this point. A team needs a go to scoring option that can create their own shot in almost any situation. Building a team around 2 big men in 2019/2020 is pretty close to purposely handcuffing yourself


He got shut down because he is not good enough, big difference. Embiid is not an elite offensive player against the likes of Horford and Gasol, because he is predictable with his moves when he can't draw fouls. The issue is thinking Embiid got shut down because he is a center, instead of admitting he is just not there with his skillset yet.


With all of Joel's post moves and dribbling skills, I am somewhat baffled at his lack of a simple jump hook, the kind that Alonzo Mourning scored 20/gm off of with no other move to speak of. All of what he can do with the rock would work so much better off of his mid range jumper and jump hook as his staple two moves. Would be easier on his knees and back as well, I think. Really weird that Ben Simmons has developed a better right hand jump hook than Joel at this point in time.

Beyond their individual skills, I also firmly believe you increase both Joel and Ben's offensive efficiency--less offensive foul calls and turnovers--with a guard who can well orchestrate pick and rolls in a half court set off of either dude. We tried with Jimmy, and he did his best, but his limitations also became obvious in the guts of the game against a superior defensive squad. Bring the squad back with Bird rights, then add Tomas Satoransky with the MLE, please and thank you.
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Re: DISASTER FA Scenario... what do you do 

Post#171 » by rzzzzz » Sun May 26, 2019 1:52 pm

Bum Adebayo wrote:
Staples center? he played against Deandre Jordan (strong and athletic but not a smart defender) and Lakers squad that are not good defenders at all (Lopez, Randle).


Yeah, but for once he was planted mainly in the post. Very economical. If Brett could scheme an offensive set that put the ball into his hands down low, while Biid works hard on getting some effective moves down pat (remember when he was showing off a Dream Shake?) I think we got a pretty stunning foundation to build on.
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Re: DISASTER FA Scenario... what do you do 

Post#172 » by Bum Adebayo » Sun May 26, 2019 2:08 pm

rzzzzz wrote:
Bum Adebayo wrote:
Staples center? he played against Deandre Jordan (strong and athletic but not a smart defender) and Lakers squad that are not good defenders at all (Lopez, Randle).


Yeah, but for once he was planted mainly in the post. Very economical. If Brett could scheme an offensive set that put the ball into his hands down low, while Biid works hard on getting some effective moves down pat (remember when he was showing off a Dream Shake?) I think we got a pretty stunning foundation to build on.


Ah yes, I agree with that, but it is Brett we are talking about, anything that deviates from "modern era" style of play is a no go for him to even think about it. He prefers to put Embiid camping outside of the 3pt line.
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Re: DISASTER FA Scenario... what do you do 

Post#173 » by youngcrev » Sun May 26, 2019 3:11 pm

Bum Adebayo wrote:
rzzzzz wrote:
Bum Adebayo wrote:
Staples center? he played against Deandre Jordan (strong and athletic but not a smart defender) and Lakers squad that are not good defenders at all (Lopez, Randle).


Yeah, but for once he was planted mainly in the post. Very economical. If Brett could scheme an offensive set that put the ball into his hands down low, while Biid works hard on getting some effective moves down pat (remember when he was showing off a Dream Shake?) I think we got a pretty stunning foundation to build on.


Ah yes, I agree with that, but it is Brett we are talking about, anything that deviates from "modern era" style of play is a no go for him to even think about it. He prefers to put Embiid camping outside of the 3pt line.


Let's not act like Embiid isn't one of the most post heavy players in the league. LaMarcus Aldridge was the only player to get more post touches per game, and those 2 had far and away the most.

You can only deviate from the modern era style so much, whether you like it or not. All these centers aren't shooting 3s now as a goof. Joel spreading the floor is necessary at times.
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Re: DISASTER FA Scenario... what do you do 

Post#174 » by Bum Adebayo » Sun May 26, 2019 4:05 pm

youngcrev wrote:
Bum Adebayo wrote:
rzzzzz wrote:
Yeah, but for once he was planted mainly in the post. Very economical. If Brett could scheme an offensive set that put the ball into his hands down low, while Biid works hard on getting some effective moves down pat (remember when he was showing off a Dream Shake?) I think we got a pretty stunning foundation to build on.


Ah yes, I agree with that, but it is Brett we are talking about, anything that deviates from "modern era" style of play is a no go for him to even think about it. He prefers to put Embiid camping outside of the 3pt line.


Let's not act like Embiid isn't one of the most post heavy players in the league. LaMarcus Aldridge was the only player to get more post touches per game, and those 2 had far and away the most.

You can only deviate from the modern era style so much, whether you like it or not. All these centers aren't shooting 3s now as a goof. Joel spreading the floor is necessary at times.


It doesn't matter what all these centers are doing now, one doesn't have to follow trends, but instead can create a new blueprint. Few centers posting up doesn't mean it can't be successful, one can go against majority and be right. The concern I have is if Embiid is dominant enough as a post scorer against the likes of Gasol, that is my main issue here.
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Re: DISASTER FA Scenario... what do you do 

Post#175 » by youngcrev » Sun May 26, 2019 4:44 pm

Bum Adebayo wrote:
youngcrev wrote:
Bum Adebayo wrote:
Ah yes, I agree with that, but it is Brett we are talking about, anything that deviates from "modern era" style of play is a no go for him to even think about it. He prefers to put Embiid camping outside of the 3pt line.


Let's not act like Embiid isn't one of the most post heavy players in the league. LaMarcus Aldridge was the only player to get more post touches per game, and those 2 had far and away the most.

You can only deviate from the modern era style so much, whether you like it or not. All these centers aren't shooting 3s now as a goof. Joel spreading the floor is necessary at times.


It doesn't matter what all these centers are doing now, one doesn't have to follow trends, but instead can create a new blueprint. Few centers posting up doesn't mean it can't be successful, one can go against majority and be right. The concern I have is if Embiid is dominant enough as a post scorer against the likes of Gasol, that is my main issue here.


The trends have gone that way for a reason. Changes to the game have made it tougher. It's also an easily double teamed action that eats up shot clock to set up. Fighting for position is also very energy intensive, and with stamina already being a question mark for him, I don't think you can expect him to battle every time down in the paint and then ask him to do all the things he does on the other end of the floor.

Joel's defense is more important than his offense for this team IMO, and we've got enough firepower offensively that I'd prefer he spend more of his energy on D.
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Re: DISASTER FA Scenario... what do you do 

Post#176 » by rzzzzz » Sun May 26, 2019 7:06 pm

Bum Adebayo wrote:Ah yes, I agree with that, but it is Brett we are talking about, anything that deviates from "modern era" style of play is a no go for him to even think about it. He prefers to put Embiid camping outside of the 3pt line.


i can only hope that Jimmy stays and continues to lean on Brett to loosen up and play to his personnel. probably too much to hope for, but it was a miracle that Brett made the moves he did the end of this year.
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Re: DISASTER FA Scenario... what do you do 

Post#177 » by smittybanton » Mon May 27, 2019 11:54 am

rzzzzz wrote:
Bum Adebayo wrote:Ah yes, I agree with that, but it is Brett we are talking about, anything that deviates from "modern era" style of play is a no go for him to even think about it. He prefers to put Embiid camping outside of the 3pt line.


i can only hope that Jimmy stays and continues to lean on Brett to loosen up and play to his personnel. probably too much to hope for, but it was a miracle that Brett made the moves he did the end of this year.



i agree with this. We should respect the way the game is called today, but all the best strategists insist on flexibility--to know when the general rules don't fit a particular context. The Warriors have adopted the modern game, clearly. Yet Steve Kerr understands that, after seeking a 3pt or shot at the rim for 18 seconds, an open mid-range shot with 5 seconds or less on the shot clock is more efficient than an off-balance three pointer with a hand in the face or a 24 second violation--especially when playing against the best defensive teams in the league during the playoffs.

Igoudala won a Finals MVP exploiting that gap.

Conversely, Tobias Harris seemed to still be trying to fit in a system that was more rigid than Doc Rivers' in Los Angeles. Both he and Jimmy reduced their mid-range games to fit in with us, and should have been rewarded with more freedom during crunch time.

As for the post-up game, I've watched with sorrow how the NBA has changed the interpretation of rules to exclude the post game in favor of the three-pointer, incrementally for over 25 years. They thought it was boring when Charles Barkley isolated himself one-on -one with the other 4 players on the other side of the floor, so they made up "illegal offense" They added the 5 second dribbling violation.

Then Shaq came along and still dominated under the old rules that almost never called offensive fouls in the post. Karl Malone wojld foul out of the first half of every game nowadays. He would elbow you in the face and itd be a defensive foul on you. But then came Shane Battier and Vlade Divac, the "flop artists". In the 2001 Finals, Dikembe Mutombo never flopped once, and we lost because Shaq couldnt be stopped Since then, its become cool to flop in the post and draw offensive fouls. Now little guys straight up low bridge guys already in the air and get the charge call.

All that's to say, Joel had Kyle Lowry in the post on a switch in the 4th qtr during game 7, and couldn't really do anything because he knew, we all knew, Lowry was going to set him up. On another occasion, Lowry ripped Joel for the steal.

So on one hand, I understand Brett Brown using Joel on the arc more than folks would like, because a) the inherent risks of foul trouble/turnovers, b) he can hit those shots and spread the floor for a point guard who can't shoot, c) the easiness with which Joel can get back to anchor the defense, d) and the fact that Joel clearly prefers a face-up one on one style of attacking his man off the dribble (he said long ago he thought of himself as a guard and it shows.)

Yet, while I accept those general facts, I think , on the other hand, that Joel's dribbling forays from the arc put a lot of stress on his knees and back--especially when he has to 'eurostep'. Because he hasnt played basketball as long as others, he jumps to soon or too late sometimes and lands awkwardly far to often for my comfort.

For me the solution is three-fold:

1) A simple jump hook. At his size, both height and girth, Joel should be unstoppable with a left shoulder hook, the kind Al Horford uses against him.

2) Brett Brown should allow him his mid-range 15 footer, because HIS efficiency there is off the charts. Recall his torching of Julius Randle for 46. Once he popped Randle in the face three times with the jimmy, he could do anything he wanted with him: Fouls for reaching, had him in the air going for pump fakes, off the dribble dunks. In other words, Joel should get the rock whenever and wherever he is open, depending on how the defense is playing him.

3) Get Joel easier buckets in pick and roll/pick and pop situations. Doing so avoids the offensive foul/turnover conundrum, Joel need not bang around establishing post position, and we can run it of of BebnSimmons as well because Joel can bring his man out to the paint.

Ben Simmons cannot initiate the pick and roll because he cannot shoot. Markelle Fultz was supposed to be the solution there. But we know what's happened since. TJ McConnnell, nope. We finally used Jimmy Butler there, but the 4th quarter of game 7 showed his limitations at making pocket passes. It is imperative we sign or draft someone adept at it. Maybe even Vasilije Micic?
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Re: DISASTER FA Scenario... what do you do 

Post#178 » by brannigan73 » Thu May 30, 2019 6:40 pm

They post Embiid up a lot but when they arent posting him up he is out of the painted area much more then a lot of centers. So he does post up a lot and he is also not in the paint a lot. I feel like him not being in the paint cuts down offensive rebounds opportunities and chances for him to get easy dunks off of creation from other people. Maybe im wrong but its seems like less skilled offensive centers like Clint Capela and Rudy Gobert get 4 or 5 layups a game just hanging out in the paint. I know he gets paid much more attention to but Embiid rarely gets an easy bucket it seems like to me. So long story short I feel like they could maximise his massive presence a bit more on the interior (although not necessarily posting him up more) and try to manufacture spacing without relying on him being out beyond the three point line quite as much.
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Re: DISASTER FA Scenario... what do you do 

Post#179 » by eyeatoma » Mon Jun 3, 2019 2:32 pm

brannigan73 wrote:They post Embiid up a lot but when they arent posting him up he is out of the painted area much more then a lot of centers. So he does post up a lot and he is also not in the paint a lot. I feel like him not being in the paint cuts down offensive rebounds opportunities and chances for him to get easy dunks off of creation from other people. Maybe im wrong but its seems like less skilled offensive centers like Clint Capela and Rudy Gobert get 4 or 5 layups a game just hanging out in the paint. I know he gets paid much more attention to but Embiid rarely gets an easy bucket it seems like to me. So long story short I feel like they could maximise his massive presence a bit more on the interior (although not necessarily posting him up more) and try to manufacture spacing without relying on him being out beyond the three point line quite as much.



A lot of that has to do with us not running the pick and roll. We started doing that more during the playoffs. In game 3 against Toronto we pick and rolled the raptors to death with Jimmy and Jo and it was beautiful. Why we went away from that I'll never know. But it was a look into how much more efficient Jo could be with the pick and roll.

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