RealGM

eagereyez wrote:

76ciology wrote:

BullyKing wrote:I also think this might be a situation that requires to consider trading Ben and rebuilding entirely around players that fit with Joel - although hopefully the long-term prognosis on his health factors in there.

Yes. Fit can compensate for talent. Look at the Raps or Bucks. They’re not more talented than us, but their parts are great fit for one another.

Ben and Jojo aren’t good fit. That’s why we need multiple star caliber players to make it work.

Agreed. Westbrook and Durant were a much better fit than Embiid and Simmons, yet those two couldn't get it done. I don't think Simmons and Embiid will ever make the finals until Simmons adds a respectable jumper. He has had three years of NBA coaches and trainers and still refuses to even attempt a 3. The writing is on the wall with him. I hope the Sixers are shopping him around for a similar level of talent who fits better with Embiid.

Another duo was the DMC-AD. Those two can put godly numbers night in and night out but dont really move the needle.

the_process wrote:

hookshot199 wrote:

the_process wrote:
Why are we assuming whoever you deal for will walk? Why so doom and gloom all of a sudden? I realize this is supposed to be a worst case scenario thread... but I don't feel like this would be the darkest timeline. Not even close, honestly.

I assume you're talking about Antony Davis. Of course he'll walk. There's no "fit" in Philly, no bench,
no starting three, four or five if we trade Ben, and (without reigniting the Brett Brown debate) no
coach.

But if you're talking about a trade for a prospect, that's a different matter.

The worst-case scenario by not upping Ben...NOW...is that we get to match when he becomes
a restricted free agent. He's ours for another five years.

And please don't do this . It's rude.

No, it's not.

As far as the rest goes, if you're keeping Ben and getting AD and Jrue... I have no clue why you would assume that they are walking.

Well then I wonder if the mods will approve my emoji giving you the finger?

Either way, we've got four or five tradable pieces if you put them through the trade checker.
We don't have enough salary to trade for both Davis and Jrue. And Ben and Jonathan Simmons
plus Bolden work in a Jrue only trade.

Jrue is under contract for three more years. We can trade for him if you want but not both.

hookshot199 wrote:

the_process wrote:

hookshot199 wrote:
I assume you're talking about Antony Davis. Of course he'll walk. There's no "fit" in Philly, no bench,
no starting three, four or five if we trade Ben, and (without reigniting the Brett Brown debate) no
coach.

But if you're talking about a trade for a prospect, that's a different matter.

The worst-case scenario by not upping Ben...NOW...is that we get to match when he becomes
a restricted free agent. He's ours for another five years.

And please don't do this . It's rude.

No, it's not.

As far as the rest goes, if you're keeping Ben and getting AD and Jrue... I have no clue why you would assume that they are walking.

Well then I wonder if the mods will approve my emoji giving you the finger?

Either way, we've got four or five tradable pieces if you put them through the trade checker.
We don't have enough salary to trade for both Davis and Jrue. And Ben and Jonathan Simmons
plus Bolden work in a Jrue only trade.

Jrue is under contract for three more years. We can trade for him if you want but not both.

Be less sensitive and pay more attention. If the scenario is Butler and Tobias walk; then you renounce everyone else, and you have plenty of room for both AD and Jrue if Jo is going out.

Negrodamus wrote:

Bum Adebayo wrote:You trade Ben Simmons for another star and build around Embiid.

Are you a Pelicans fan now?

Bandwagon Zion fan. Sixers still my favourite team though.

PhillyPhilly wrote:

XtremeDunkz wrote:

PhillyPhilly wrote:Mirotic and KCP would be two guys I go for in free agency and then try to trade for Taurean Prince. All three are capable of 15 ppg and good three point shooters as well. Harrison Barnes is also on the market too which is interesting.

yuck.............

Says someone who thinks getting Kemba is the solution when he likes the ball In his hands as much as Ben does and is also a liability on defense? "Yuck" indeed.

Lol if you've ever seen me post you know I don't think Ben should have the ball in his hands. So yes Kemba would be a huge improvement.

the_process wrote:

hookshot199 wrote:

the_process wrote:
No, it's not.

As far as the rest goes, if you're keeping Ben and getting AD and Jrue... I have no clue why you would assume that they are walking.

Well then I wonder if the mods will approve my emoji giving you the finger?

Either way, we've got four or five tradable pieces if you put them through the trade checker.
We don't have enough salary to trade for both Davis and Jrue. And Ben and Jonathan Simmons
plus Bolden work in a Jrue only trade.

Jrue is under contract for three more years. We can trade for him if you want but not both.

Be less sensitive and pay more attention. If the scenario is Butler and Tobias walk; then you renounce everyone else, and you have plenty of room for both AD and Jrue if Jo is going out.

The premise was that JB and Tobias walk. You can't get Jrue without a trade because he's under contract
for another three years. And Memphis is looking to trade Davis. Neither is a free agent, so we have to trade
for them.

We can't acquire both, according to league rules (I'm relying on the trade checker) without packaging both
Embid and Ben, along with Jonathan Simmons. And since I don't believe the OP's intent was to trade Embiid,
we can't trade for both. We can trade for one or the other. And trading your former number one, 23-year-
old point guard, who's under contract more or less for another five years, for Davis is a degree of risk far
beyond reason in my opinion. It is not akin to taking a calculated risk by trading RoCo and Saric for Butler
or Shamet and Miami's 2021 for Tobias.

What we're discussing in this post is, I suppose, if Jimmy Butler won't accept a four-year max and Tobias
Harris won't accept a 15% discount? But if we want Jimmy for five, no one can match that by $30-plus
million. And if Tobias would rather play in Utah, then maybe it's about coaching philosophy and how he
was or wasn't integrated into the offense, that sort of thing.

Miami made the playoffs this year. Pat Riley is still president. They've got a coach who's made the playoffs
in eight of his 11 seasons (granted, four with LeBron and Bosh). But why would anyone conclude that they're
going to be one of the five worst teams in the league?

The main point: We can't have both Jrue and Davis based on payroll arithmetic in the context of trade rules.
And if you want Davis, the only way to get him is by trading Ben.


Edit: Here's the link to the trade checker.

https://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/7196585

hookshot199 wrote:.

Miami made the playoffs this year. Pat Riley is still president. They've got a coach who's made the playoffs
in eight of his 11 seasons (granted, four with LeBron and Bosh). But why would anyone conclude that they're
going to be one of the five worst teams in the league?

Uh... No they didn't. They finished 10th in the East. A lot could change in the next couple of years, but that team is old, has a terrible cap situation, and zero high upside young players to build around (I like Josh Richardson, but he's not a franchise player). They might not be bottom of the league bad (particularly since they have no incentive to be), but that team's immediate future isn't looking so bright.

hookshot199 wrote:

the_process wrote:

hookshot199 wrote:
Well then I wonder if the mods will approve my emoji giving you the finger?

Either way, we've got four or five tradable pieces if you put them through the trade checker.
We don't have enough salary to trade for both Davis and Jrue. And Ben and Jonathan Simmons
plus Bolden work in a Jrue only trade.

Jrue is under contract for three more years. We can trade for him if you want but not both.

Be less sensitive and pay more attention. If the scenario is Butler and Tobias walk; then you renounce everyone else, and you have plenty of room for both AD and Jrue if Jo is going out.

The premise was that JB and Tobias walk. You can't get Jrue without a trade because he's under contract
for another three years. And Memphis is looking to trade Davis. Neither is a free agent, so we have to trade
for them.

We can't acquire both, according to league rules (I'm relying on the trade checker) without packaging both
Embid and Ben, along with Jonathan Simmons. And since I don't believe the OP's intent was to trade Embiid,
we can't trade for both. We can trade for one or the other. And trading your former number one, 23-year-
old point guard, who's under contract more or less for another five years, for Davis is a degree of risk far
beyond reason in my opinion. It is not akin to taking a calculated risk by trading RoCo and Saric for Butler
or Shamet and Miami's 2021 for Tobias.

What we're discussing in this post is, I suppose, if Jimmy Butler won't accept a four-year max and Tobias
Harris won't accept a 15% discount? But if we want Jimmy for five, no one can match that by $30-plus
million. And if Tobias would rather play in Utah, then maybe it's about coaching philosophy and how he
was or wasn't integrated into the offense, that sort of thing.

Miami made the playoffs this year. Pat Riley is still president. They've got a coach who's made the playoffs
in eight of his 11 seasons (granted, four with LeBron and Bosh). But why would anyone conclude that they're
going to be one of the five worst teams in the league?

The main point: We can't have both Jrue and Davis based on payroll arithmetic in the context of trade rules.

TL;DR. Stay with me. Tobias and Harris walk, then renounce every other FA. That opens up nearly 60M in cap room. Then you can use that space as part of a trade with New Orleans.

youngcrev wrote:

hookshot199 wrote:.

Miami made the playoffs this year. Pat Riley is still president. They've got a coach who's made the playoffs
in eight of his 11 seasons (granted, four with LeBron and Bosh). But why would anyone conclude that they're
going to be one of the five worst teams in the league?

Uh... No they didn't. They finished 10th in the East. A lot could change in the next couple of years, but that team is old, has a terrible cap situation, and zero high upside young players to build around (I like Josh Richardson, but he's not a franchise player). They might not be bottom of the league bad (particularly since they have no incentive to be), but that team's immediate future isn't looking so bright.

Here, check their cap situation next June (2020). Whiteside, Ryan Anderson and Dragic will be off the books.
I don't know who they'll be able to sign with their roughly $30-$35 mil in cap space. It doesn't look like a good
roster, but I still believe Riley's one of the best - of all time.

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/miami-heat/cap/2020/

youngcrev wrote:And I think "Yikes" to that scenario. No brainier? That gives you what, an extra 12M or so to work with and some gigantic question marks (and a likely pissed off Embiid)

That gives you a star scoring guard on his rookie deal (deferred payday), a high lotto pick to add another stud and it bails you out of giving a max to Simmons (who obviously is not worthy).

Why would Embiid be pissed off? They don't fit on the court together and every dirtsheet suggests that they're not that close off the court.

the_process wrote:

hookshot199 wrote:

the_process wrote:
Be less sensitive and pay more attention. If the scenario is Butler and Tobias walk; then you renounce everyone else, and you have plenty of room for both AD and Jrue if Jo is going out.

The premise was that JB and Tobias walk. You can't get Jrue without a trade because he's under contract
for another three years. And Memphis is looking to trade Davis. Neither is a free agent, so we have to trade
for them.

We can't acquire both, according to league rules (I'm relying on the trade checker) without packaging both
Embid and Ben, along with Jonathan Simmons. And since I don't believe the OP's intent was to trade Embiid,
we can't trade for both. We can trade for one or the other. And trading your former number one, 23-year-
old point guard, who's under contract more or less for another five years, for Davis is a degree of risk far
beyond reason in my opinion. It is not akin to taking a calculated risk by trading RoCo and Saric for Butler
or Shamet and Miami's 2021 for Tobias.

What we're discussing in this post is, I suppose, if Jimmy Butler won't accept a four-year max and Tobias
Harris won't accept a 15% discount? But if we want Jimmy for five, no one can match that by $30-plus
million. And if Tobias would rather play in Utah, then maybe it's about coaching philosophy and how he
was or wasn't integrated into the offense, that sort of thing.

Miami made the playoffs this year. Pat Riley is still president. They've got a coach who's made the playoffs
in eight of his 11 seasons (granted, four with LeBron and Bosh). But why would anyone conclude that they're
going to be one of the five worst teams in the league?

The main point: We can't have both Jrue and Davis based on payroll arithmetic in the context of trade rules.

TL;DR. Stay with me. Tobias and Harris walk, then renounce every other FA. That opens up nearly 60M in cap room. Then you can use that space as part of a trade with New Orleans.

I've already done that - actually the TradeChecker did that - in the calculation. We can go to the free agency
market with $60 million. But we can't use it to trade for Jrue and Davis. They're not free agents.

Roughly $40 million of payroll (Embiid, Simmons, Zhaire and Bolden), $13-$14 million if you take Embiid and
Zhaire off the table, don't leave you enough salary to make a trade. So I added Jonathan Simmons' full $5.7
million.

So please explain how you make the trade for both players. You can make a trade for one, but only if you
include Ben Simmons.

hookshot199 wrote:

the_process wrote:

hookshot199 wrote:

The premise was that JB and Tobias walk. You can't get Jrue without a trade because he's under contract
for another three years. And Memphis is looking to trade Davis. Neither is a free agent, so we have to trade
for them.

We can't acquire both, according to league rules (I'm relying on the trade checker) without packaging both
Embid and Ben, along with Jonathan Simmons. And since I don't believe the OP's intent was to trade Embiid,
we can't trade for both. We can trade for one or the other. And trading your former number one, 23-year-
old point guard, who's under contract more or less for another five years, for Davis is a degree of risk far
beyond reason in my opinion. It is not akin to taking a calculated risk by trading RoCo and Saric for Butler
or Shamet and Miami's 2021 for Tobias.

What we're discussing in this post is, I suppose, if Jimmy Butler won't accept a four-year max and Tobias
Harris won't accept a 15% discount? But if we want Jimmy for five, no one can match that by $30-plus
million. And if Tobias would rather play in Utah, then maybe it's about coaching philosophy and how he
was or wasn't integrated into the offense, that sort of thing.

Miami made the playoffs this year. Pat Riley is still president. They've got a coach who's made the playoffs
in eight of his 11 seasons (granted, four with LeBron and Bosh). But why would anyone conclude that they're
going to be one of the five worst teams in the league?

The main point: We can't have both Jrue and Davis based on payroll arithmetic in the context of trade rules.

TL;DR. Stay with me. Tobias and Harris walk, then renounce every other FA. That opens up nearly 60M in cap room. Then you can use that space as part of a trade with New Orleans.

I've already done that - actually the TradeChecker did that - in the calculation. We can go to the free agency
market with $60 million. But we can't use it to trade for Jrue and Davis. They're not free agents.

Roughly $40 million of payroll (Embiid, Simmons, Zhaire and Bolden), $13-$14 million if you take Embiid and
Zhaire off the table, don't leave you enough salary to make a trade. So I added Jonathan Simmons' full $5.7
million.

So please explain how you make the trade for both players. You can make a trade for one, but only if you
include Ben Simmons.

You're incorrect. The trade checker is basing off of our current cap situation where we are over the cap. Once the season ends and we renounce the free agents, we will be under the cap. Different rules apply. Please let this go.

hookshot199 wrote:

the_process wrote:

hookshot199 wrote:

The premise was that JB and Tobias walk. You can't get Jrue without a trade because he's under contract
for another three years. And Memphis is looking to trade Davis. Neither is a free agent, so we have to trade
for them.

We can't acquire both, according to league rules (I'm relying on the trade checker) without packaging both
Embid and Ben, along with Jonathan Simmons. And since I don't believe the OP's intent was to trade Embiid,
we can't trade for both. We can trade for one or the other. And trading your former number one, 23-year-
old point guard, who's under contract more or less for another five years, for Davis is a degree of risk far
beyond reason in my opinion. It is not akin to taking a calculated risk by trading RoCo and Saric for Butler
or Shamet and Miami's 2021 for Tobias.

What we're discussing in this post is, I suppose, if Jimmy Butler won't accept a four-year max and Tobias
Harris won't accept a 15% discount? But if we want Jimmy for five, no one can match that by $30-plus
million. And if Tobias would rather play in Utah, then maybe it's about coaching philosophy and how he
was or wasn't integrated into the offense, that sort of thing.

Miami made the playoffs this year. Pat Riley is still president. They've got a coach who's made the playoffs
in eight of his 11 seasons (granted, four with LeBron and Bosh). But why would anyone conclude that they're
going to be one of the five worst teams in the league?

The main point: We can't have both Jrue and Davis based on payroll arithmetic in the context of trade rules.

TL;DR. Stay with me. Tobias and Harris walk, then renounce every other FA. That opens up nearly 60M in cap room. Then you can use that space as part of a trade with New Orleans.

I've already done that - actually the TradeChecker did that - in the calculation. We can go to the free agency
market with $60 million. But we can't use it to trade for Jrue and Davis. They're not free agents.

Roughly $40 million of payroll (Embiid, Simmons, Zhaire and Bolden), $13-$14 million if you take Embiid and
Zhaire off the table, don't leave you enough salary to make a trade. So I added Jonathan Simmons' full $5.7
million.

So please explain how you make the trade for both players. You can make a trade for one, but only if you
include Ben Simmons.

From the top... you can use cap space to sign FA or to take on extra salary in trade. If the Sixers are ~60M under the cap, they could take AD and Jrue in a trade with nothing going out. The trade isn't happening now, it would happen after the new league year. And you can't use Trade checker or Trade Machine right now, they're useless as they're still using this year's numbers. When the league year changes on July 1st then the interns will get to work updating them.

Go after Russell because if he don't accept, at least Brooklyn is forced to pay him. Go get Front Court help. I think they need to sign 2 legit players, but wait out free agency and don't over spend on players like Milsap, Mirotic, Randle, Thad, Morris. In the draft, First round take BPA, and then just go after shooters in the 2nd round. Also, look at signing players like Jeremy Lamb and Bogdanovich

The Dlo thing is interesting. I'm not in love with his game, but he makes sense in a lot of ways. It doesn't hurt that he already has relationships with our guys.

I hate Russell's game. He's just not a "winning" player.

Kobblehead wrote:

youngcrev wrote:And I think "Yikes" to that scenario. No brainier? That gives you what, an extra 12M or so to work with and some gigantic question marks (and a likely pissed off Embiid)

That gives you a star scoring guard on his rookie deal (deferred payday), a high lotto pick to add another stud and it bails you out of giving a max to Simmons (who obviously is not worthy).

Why would Embiid be pissed off? They don't fit on the court together and every dirtsheet suggests that they're not that close off the court.

I haven't seen enough of Sexton to have that strong of an opinion one way or another, but you're the first I've heard refer to him as a star. And I definitely disagree that Simmons won't be worthy of his next deal. I dont think Embiid has as low of an opinion of Simmons as you do.

hookshot199 wrote:

youngcrev wrote:

hookshot199 wrote:.

Miami made the playoffs this year. Pat Riley is still president. They've got a coach who's made the playoffs
in eight of his 11 seasons (granted, four with LeBron and Bosh). But why would anyone conclude that they're
going to be one of the five worst teams in the league?

Uh... No they didn't. They finished 10th in the East. A lot could change in the next couple of years, but that team is old, has a terrible cap situation, and zero high upside young players to build around (I like Josh Richardson, but he's not a franchise player). They might not be bottom of the league bad (particularly since they have no incentive to be), but that team's immediate future isn't looking so bright.

Here, check their cap situation next June (2020). Whiteside, Ryan Anderson and Dragic will be off the books.
I don't know who they'll be able to sign with their roughly $30-$35 mil in cap space. It doesn't look like a good
roster, but I still believe Riley's one of the best - of all time.

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/miami-heat/cap/2020/

Like I said... A lot could change between now and then, but they're likely going to be coming off another lotto bound season next year. I don't think they'll be the same destination they were when Lebron and Bosh decided to sign on.

Hell, Riley's 74, he might not even still be with the organization.

I think the biggest thing that holds back the value of that pick is that there's simply no incentive for them to be bad.

BullyKing wrote:

hookshot199 wrote:

the_process wrote:
TL;DR. Stay with me. Tobias and Harris walk, then renounce every other FA. That opens up nearly 60M in cap room. Then you can use that space as part of a trade with New Orleans.

I've already done that - actually the TradeChecker did that - in the calculation. We can go to the free agency
market with $60 million. But we can't use it to trade for Jrue and Davis. They're not free agents.

Roughly $40 million of payroll (Embiid, Simmons, Zhaire and Bolden), $13-$14 million if you take Embiid and
Zhaire off the table, don't leave you enough salary to make a trade. So I added Jonathan Simmons' full $5.7
million.

So please explain how you make the trade for both players. You can make a trade for one, but only if you
include Ben Simmons.

You're incorrect. The trade checker is basing off of our current cap situation where we are over the cap. Once the season ends and we renounce the free agents, we will be under the cap. Different rules apply. Please let this go.

Well, gents, my apologies and thank you for the explanation.

But then the next question, separate from the one I raised: What do we trade if our roster
consists primarily of Embiid, Simmons, Zhaire, Bolden and our 2019 pick?

hookshot199 wrote:

BullyKing wrote:

hookshot199 wrote:
I've already done that - actually the TradeChecker did that - in the calculation. We can go to the free agency
market with $60 million. But we can't use it to trade for Jrue and Davis. They're not free agents.

Roughly $40 million of payroll (Embiid, Simmons, Zhaire and Bolden), $13-$14 million if you take Embiid and
Zhaire off the table, don't leave you enough salary to make a trade. So I added Jonathan Simmons' full $5.7
million.

So please explain how you make the trade for both players. You can make a trade for one, but only if you
include Ben Simmons.

You're incorrect. The trade checker is basing off of our current cap situation where we are over the cap. Once the season ends and we renounce the free agents, we will be under the cap. Different rules apply. Please let this go.

Well, gents, my apologies and thank you for the explanation.

But then the next question, separate from the one I raised: What do we trade if our roster
consists primarily of Embiid, Simmons, Zhaire, Bolden and our 2019 pick?

Salary matching rules don't apply if you are far enough under the cap absorb the incoming salary.