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Trade Ben/Joel for Kawhii Leonard

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Back to summer 2018: would you do it?

Yes, either Ben or Joel, teaming the other one up with Kawhii
4
8%
Yes, only Joel
1
2%
Yes, only Ben
22
44%
No, too high risk of Leonard leaving
13
26%
No, happy to have both for the future
10
20%
 
Total votes: 50

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Re: Trade Ben/Joel for Kawhii Leonard 

Post#21 » by 76ciology » Wed May 29, 2019 2:44 am

Would you trade a 22 year old Andre Iguodala for 1 year of prime LeBron James?
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Re: Trade Ben/Joel for Kawhii Leonard 

Post#22 » by kriss73 » Wed May 29, 2019 7:28 am

No. History is theaching you that you're guaranteed to win at least 3 rings with a life of Iggy, only 1 at best with one year of LBJ.
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Re: Trade Ben/Joel for Kawhii Leonard 

Post#23 » by Mik317 » Wed May 29, 2019 12:49 pm

76ciology wrote:Would you trade a 22 year old Andre Iguodala for 1 year of prime LeBron James?

thats not how this works tho.

We don't know if Ben "only" maxes out as Iggy 2.0.
We don't know if 1 year of Bron even leads to a chip.

The whole point of the process was to set us up for sustained success and yet here we are in the middle of it trying to blow all of that away for 1 shot....that probably will miss. If Toronto does not win this chip this year it will still be worth it for them if only because they shed Derozan's contract and can basically start over after a damn good run. So Kawhii bailing wouldn't be the end of the world for them. If we give up on Ben for one year of a second place finish, and he goes on to figure out **** (especially if we would have traded him to the Spurs? You just know he'd be outchea hitting 4s and ****), while Kawhii is off in LA chilling, we'd have the dumb face on and be mad salty. Ben is probably running out of time for sure BUT there is still a shot at him taking another leap and giving that up for momentary happiness still is not worth it to me. I have shat on Ben and his lane clogging ass more than anyone. I have been a right piece of **** to others about their thirst for him... but despite all of that I realize that with Embiid's injury history and such, Ben is still the best contingency plan for prolong success. If he pops, then Embiid can go back to being gravy instead of super critical...and that is what those 18, 10, 27 win seasons were all for. That was the whole idea of the process. Kawhii and AD aren't Bynum but this rush to push all the chips in is exactly what lead to the franchise being **** in the first place. I **** love Kawhii. Dude is everything I want in a player. But I still don't think he would have resigned here. I KNOW AD won't resign here. So that alone is enough of a deal breaker for me.

I am still willing to bet on Ben for one more offseason.
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Re: Trade Ben/Joel for Kawhii Leonard 

Post#24 » by Sixerscan » Wed May 29, 2019 3:27 pm

Mik317 wrote:
76ciology wrote:Would you trade a 22 year old Andre Iguodala for 1 year of prime LeBron James?

thats not how this works tho.

We don't know if Ben "only" maxes out as Iggy 2.0.
We don't know if 1 year of Bron even leads to a chip.

The whole point of the process was to set us up for sustained success and yet here we are in the middle of it trying to blow all of that away for 1 shot....that probably will miss. If Toronto does not win this chip this year it will still be worth it for them if only because they shed Derozan's contract and can basically start over after a damn good run. So Kawhii bailing wouldn't be the end of the world for them. If we give up on Ben for one year of a second place finish, and he goes on to figure out **** (especially if we would have traded him to the Spurs? You just know he'd be outchea hitting 4s and ****), while Kawhii is off in LA chilling, we'd have the dumb face on and be mad salty. Ben is probably running out of time for sure BUT there is still a shot at him taking another leap and giving that up for momentary happiness still is not worth it to me. I have shat on Ben and his lane clogging ass more than anyone. I have been a right piece of **** to others about their thirst for him... but despite all of that I realize that with Embiid's injury history and such, Ben is still the best contingency plan for prolong success. If he pops, then Embiid can go back to being gravy instead of super critical...and that is what those 18, 10, 27 win seasons were all for. That was the whole idea of the process. Kawhii and AD aren't Bynum but this rush to push all the chips in is exactly what lead to the franchise being **** in the first place. I **** love Kawhii. Dude is everything I want in a player. But I still don't think he would have resigned here. I KNOW AD won't resign here. So that alone is enough of a deal breaker for me.

I am still willing to bet on Ben for one more offseason.


I’m not sure what a 22 year old Iguodala and Ben Simmons have to do with each other. Ben is significantly better. Iggy took a big leap at 23 (still wasn’t as good as Ben is now), maybe people shouldn’t assume Ben is a finished product.
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Re: Trade Ben/Joel for Kawhii Leonard 

Post#25 » by VDT » Wed May 29, 2019 5:44 pm

I think people are underestimating how hard it is to win a title or even go to the finals as the favourties (which i think the Sixers would be with Leonard instead of Simmons).

Barkley was a top 20 player ever and the best thing he could manage was a finals appearence and without the team that drafted him.

Garnett wouldn't have any team success if he would have stayed with the Timberwolves.

Utah had Malone and Stockton for twenty years and never won a title and only managed to get to the finals twice after Hakeem declined and before the Shaq/Duncan era.

Robinson wouldnt have won anything if not for Duncan.

Ewing didnt win anything.

Lebron couldnt win anything in Cleveland.

Etc

What i am trying to say is that it is quite difficult to win a title, even drafting a top 20 player (or even a top 10) EVER doesnt guarantee a title or even a finals appearance.

If the Sixers would win the title this year with Leonard the process would be a success undoubtly no matter what happened afterwards. Even going in the finals as the favorites for one year would probably be a success all in all even if Leonard left, which is not known. Cavaliers had Lebron (a top 5 player ever) for 8 years and couldnt do that.

Again all this in hindsight since it was hard to make that decision at the moment because of the injury concerns, the way Simmons was viewed at the time and the inherent conservatism of most FOs with this kind of blockbuster trades.
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Re: Trade Ben/Joel for Kawhii Leonard 

Post#26 » by Sixerscan » Wed May 29, 2019 6:19 pm

VDT wrote:I think people are underestimating how hard it is to win a title or even go to the finals as the favourties (which i think the Sixers would be with Leonard instead of Simmons).

Barkley was a top 20 player ever and the best thing he could manage was a finals appearence and without the team that drafted him.

Garnett wouldn't have any team success if he would have stayed with the Timberwolves.

Utah had Malone and Stockton for twenty years and never won a title and only managed to get to the finals twice after Hakeem declined and before the Shaq/Duncan era.

Robinson wouldnt have won anything if not for Duncan.

Ewing didnt win anything.

Lebron couldnt win anything in Cleveland.

Etc

What i am trying to say is that it is quite difficult to win a title, even drafting a top 20 player (or even a top 10) EVER doesnt guarantee a title or even a finals appearance.

If the Sixers would win the title this year with Leonard the process would be a success undoubtly no matter what happened afterwards. Even going in the finals as the favorites for one year would probably be a success all in all even if Leonard left, which is not known. Cavaliers had Lebron (a top 5 player ever) for 8 years and couldnt do that.

Again all this in hindsight since it was hard to make that decision at the moment because of the injury concerns, the way Simmons was viewed at the time and the inherent conservatism of most FOs with this kind of blockbuster trades.


Well with all this I think you’re overestimating the certainty of the Sixers winning the finals had they traded for Kawhi.

And I disagree that going to the finals once followed by him leaving would be a success, in fact when we were discussing this a year ago the main thing people said was that going to the finals once to get smacked by the Warriors wasn’t worth it.
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Re: Trade Ben/Joel for Kawhii Leonard 

Post#27 » by Mik317 » Wed May 29, 2019 6:55 pm

we trade Ben for Kawhii and Fultz would have probably been our PG and the Butler trade probably doesn't get made because Cov or Dario would have been in the deal to make thing match.

There is more that goes into this revisionist history than just a 1 for 1 swap.
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Re: Trade Ben/Joel for Kawhii Leonard 

Post#28 » by PhilasFinest » Thu May 30, 2019 2:00 am

We are still talking bout this?

LOL SMH
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Re: Trade Ben/Joel for Kawhii Leonard 

Post#29 » by 76ciology » Thu May 30, 2019 2:56 am

PhilasFinest wrote:We are still talking bout this?

LOL SMH


Future is uncertain. And i dont think there’s nowhere to go with all the FA speculations.

These talk helps us have a healthy evaluation of our players value to prevent us from overrating their value because of bias
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Re: Trade Ben/Joel for Kawhii Leonard 

Post#30 » by 76ciology » Thu May 30, 2019 2:57 am

If we traded Ben for Kawhi, will it still allow us to do the Jimmy and Tobias trades? Dont know about CAP
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Re: Trade Ben/Joel for Kawhii Leonard 

Post#31 » by 76ciology » Thu May 30, 2019 2:59 am

All players in Rockets roster is available.

Would you trade Ben for James Harden? Its gonna be the best offer out there. But I’d guess Morey would want more.
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Re: Trade Ben/Joel for Kawhii Leonard 

Post#32 » by sixers hoops » Thu May 30, 2019 4:14 am

Sixerscan wrote:
VDT wrote:I think people are underestimating how hard it is to win a title or even go to the finals as the favourties (which i think the Sixers would be with Leonard instead of Simmons).

Barkley was a top 20 player ever and the best thing he could manage was a finals appearence and without the team that drafted him.

Garnett wouldn't have any team success if he would have stayed with the Timberwolves.

Utah had Malone and Stockton for twenty years and never won a title and only managed to get to the finals twice after Hakeem declined and before the Shaq/Duncan era.

Robinson wouldnt have won anything if not for Duncan.

Ewing didnt win anything.

Lebron couldnt win anything in Cleveland.

Etc

What i am trying to say is that it is quite difficult to win a title, even drafting a top 20 player (or even a top 10) EVER doesnt guarantee a title or even a finals appearance.

If the Sixers would win the title this year with Leonard the process would be a success undoubtly no matter what happened afterwards. Even going in the finals as the favorites for one year would probably be a success all in all even if Leonard left, which is not known. Cavaliers had Lebron (a top 5 player ever) for 8 years and couldnt do that.

Again all this in hindsight since it was hard to make that decision at the moment because of the injury concerns, the way Simmons was viewed at the time and the inherent conservatism of most FOs with this kind of blockbuster trades.


Well with all this I think you’re overestimating the certainty of the Sixers winning the finals had they traded for Kawhi.

And I disagree that going to the finals once followed by him leaving would be a success, in fact when we were discussing this a year ago the main thing people said was that going to the finals once to get smacked by the Warriors wasn’t worth it.


Right. I don’t trade Ben to get a second place finish. And I don’t think a Jojo/Kawhi team would have had the supporting cast to get it done. I assume Cov and Dario for Butler could’ve still happened. Maybe even the Tobias trade, but you really can’t guess how the roster would’ve turned out. We would’ve been a thin roster, and had two stars on load management.
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Re: Trade Ben/Joel for Kawhii Leonard 

Post#33 » by James40 » Thu May 30, 2019 4:16 am

76ciology wrote:All players in Rockets roster is available.

Would you trade Ben for James Harden? Its gonna be the best offer out there. But I’d guess Morey would want more.


Let’s say Simmons is a welder, he can set the machine up perfectly, he might even tack it up, but then finds someone else to do the actual welding.

Harden volunteers to make every weld, everywhere on the job, and he’s a damn good welder.

They make great teammates and compliment each other perfectly, but unfortunately one is far more valuable than the other, at this present time.

This analogy can also be used for a Dr, a plumber, an accountant, and basketball player.
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Re: Trade Ben/Joel for Kawhii Leonard 

Post#34 » by 76ciology » Thu May 30, 2019 7:20 am

James40 wrote:
76ciology wrote:All players in Rockets roster is available.

Would you trade Ben for James Harden? Its gonna be the best offer out there. But I’d guess Morey would want more.


Let’s say Simmons is a welder, he can set the machine up perfectly, he might even tack it up, but then finds someone else to do the actual welding.

Harden volunteers to make every weld, everywhere on the job, and he’s a damn good welder.

They make great teammates and compliment each other perfectly, but unfortunately one is far more valuable than the other, at this present time.

This analogy can also be used for a Dr, a plumber, an accountant, and basketball player.


Simmons can’t set up for his teammates in halfcourt. Thats why he likes to push it on offense. And if he needs to push it, then he will have to ask Harden to take his hands off the ball. I dont think Ben compliments playing with on ball creators. Ben compliments spot up shooters who can jack up shots on transition like Roco, Dario or maybe Ryan Anderson.

I like the effort on analogy but they dont compliment each other and you need to give up one of Ben or Biid to get Harden.

On the other hand.. Harden and Embiid PnR will be gravy.
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Re: Trade Ben/Joel for Kawhii Leonard 

Post#35 » by VDT » Thu May 30, 2019 10:44 am

sixers hoops wrote:
Sixerscan wrote:
VDT wrote:I think people are underestimating how hard it is to win a title or even go to the finals as the favourties (which i think the Sixers would be with Leonard instead of Simmons).

Barkley was a top 20 player ever and the best thing he could manage was a finals appearence and without the team that drafted him.

Garnett wouldn't have any team success if he would have stayed with the Timberwolves.

Utah had Malone and Stockton for twenty years and never won a title and only managed to get to the finals twice after Hakeem declined and before the Shaq/Duncan era.

Robinson wouldnt have won anything if not for Duncan.

Ewing didnt win anything.

Lebron couldnt win anything in Cleveland.

Etc

What i am trying to say is that it is quite difficult to win a title, even drafting a top 20 player (or even a top 10) EVER doesnt guarantee a title or even a finals appearance.

If the Sixers would win the title this year with Leonard the process would be a success undoubtly no matter what happened afterwards. Even going in the finals as the favorites for one year would probably be a success all in all even if Leonard left, which is not known. Cavaliers had Lebron (a top 5 player ever) for 8 years and couldnt do that.

Again all this in hindsight since it was hard to make that decision at the moment because of the injury concerns, the way Simmons was viewed at the time and the inherent conservatism of most FOs with this kind of blockbuster trades.


Well with all this I think you’re overestimating the certainty of the Sixers winning the finals had they traded for Kawhi.

And I disagree that going to the finals once followed by him leaving would be a success, in fact when we were discussing this a year ago the main thing people said was that going to the finals once to get smacked by the Warriors wasn’t worth it.


Right. I don’t trade Ben to get a second place finish. And I don’t think a Jojo/Kawhi team would have had the supporting cast to get it done. I assume Cov and Dario for Butler could’ve still happened. Maybe even the Tobias trade, but you really can’t guess how the roster would’ve turned out. We would’ve been a thin roster, and had two stars on load management.



Well it's hard to know what the result of the finals would be or even what the actual Sixers roster would be in that scenario.

However i think that Embiid/Kawhi and some combination of Butler, Harris and Covington would be favored against the Warriors particularly given Durant's injury.

It's hard to say anything more with any certainty regarding the outcome of the finals or whether Leonard would stay.

My main point is that people are overly optimistic imo when talking about the results of drafting talented players. Yes a multi year dynasty is a possibility but the average result is probably worse than what i described in the beginning of this post.
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Re: Trade Ben/Joel for Kawhii Leonard 

Post#36 » by Sixerscan » Thu May 30, 2019 1:02 pm

VDT wrote:
sixers hoops wrote:
Sixerscan wrote:
Well with all this I think you’re overestimating the certainty of the Sixers winning the finals had they traded for Kawhi.

And I disagree that going to the finals once followed by him leaving would be a success, in fact when we were discussing this a year ago the main thing people said was that going to the finals once to get smacked by the Warriors wasn’t worth it.


Right. I don’t trade Ben to get a second place finish. And I don’t think a Jojo/Kawhi team would have had the supporting cast to get it done. I assume Cov and Dario for Butler could’ve still happened. Maybe even the Tobias trade, but you really can’t guess how the roster would’ve turned out. We would’ve been a thin roster, and had two stars on load management.



Well it's hard to know what the result of the finals would be or even what the actual Sixers roster would be in that scenario.

However i think that Embiid/Kawhi and some combination of Butler, Harris and Covington would be favored against the Warriors particularly given Durant's injury.

It's hard to say anything more with any certainty regarding the outcome of the finals or whether Leonard would stay.

My main point is that people are overly optimistic imo when talking about the results of drafting talented players. Yes a multi year dynasty is a possibility but the average result is probably worse than what i described in the beginning of this post.


All the more reason to try for a longer window and not go for one year.

The Raptors made the trade because they were probably pretty close to blowing up their team anyway. Very different situations.
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Re: Trade Ben/Joel for Kawhii Leonard 

Post#37 » by Eyeamok » Thu May 30, 2019 1:25 pm

Mik317 wrote:we trade Ben for Kawhii and Fultz would have probably been our PG and the Butler trade probably doesn't get made because Cov or Dario would have been in the deal to make thing match.

There is more that goes into this revisionist history than just a 1 for 1 swap.


I was going to say this but you said it better.

Also I'd like to add that team chemistry would have probably taken a major hit. You have Kawhi out with load management, Joel out with various issues and we lose a lot more games in the regular season.
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Re: Trade Ben/Joel for Kawhii Leonard 

Post#38 » by BullyKing » Thu May 30, 2019 3:28 pm

Sixerscan wrote:
VDT wrote:
sixers hoops wrote:
Right. I don’t trade Ben to get a second place finish. And I don’t think a Jojo/Kawhi team would have had the supporting cast to get it done. I assume Cov and Dario for Butler could’ve still happened. Maybe even the Tobias trade, but you really can’t guess how the roster would’ve turned out. We would’ve been a thin roster, and had two stars on load management.



Well it's hard to know what the result of the finals would be or even what the actual Sixers roster would be in that scenario.

However i think that Embiid/Kawhi and some combination of Butler, Harris and Covington would be favored against the Warriors particularly given Durant's injury.

It's hard to say anything more with any certainty regarding the outcome of the finals or whether Leonard would stay.

My main point is that people are overly optimistic imo when talking about the results of drafting talented players. Yes a multi year dynasty is a possibility but the average result is probably worse than what i described in the beginning of this post.


All the more reason to try for a longer window and not go for one year.

The Raptors made the trade because they were probably pretty close to blowing up their team anyway. Very different situations.


And they were presented with an offer that was practically nothing and would have been criminal to turn down. It would be like us trading Butler on a five year max in a year or two with a late first for a top-5 player. The reported asking prices were just vastly different.
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Re: Trade Ben/Joel for Kawhii Leonard 

Post#39 » by brannigan73 » Thu May 30, 2019 6:12 pm

This post should be a bannable offense. And Simmons is much better then Igoudala was at Ben's age. I've savaged Ben in the past but even if he doesnt improve his jumpshot he will eventually be more then marginally better then Igoudala ever was by improving in other areas.
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Re: Trade Ben/Joel for Kawhii Leonard 

Post#40 » by VDT » Thu May 30, 2019 7:07 pm

Sixerscan wrote:
VDT wrote:
sixers hoops wrote:
Right. I don’t trade Ben to get a second place finish. And I don’t think a Jojo/Kawhi team would have had the supporting cast to get it done. I assume Cov and Dario for Butler could’ve still happened. Maybe even the Tobias trade, but you really can’t guess how the roster would’ve turned out. We would’ve been a thin roster, and had two stars on load management.



Well it's hard to know what the result of the finals would be or even what the actual Sixers roster would be in that scenario.

However i think that Embiid/Kawhi and some combination of Butler, Harris and Covington would be favored against the Warriors particularly given Durant's injury.

It's hard to say anything more with any certainty regarding the outcome of the finals or whether Leonard would stay.

My main point is that people are overly optimistic imo when talking about the results of drafting talented players. Yes a multi year dynasty is a possibility but the average result is probably worse than what i described in the beginning of this post.


All the more reason to try for a longer window and not go for one year.

The Raptors made the trade because they were probably pretty close to blowing up their team anyway. Very different situations.



I don't disagree, it was a no brainer for the Raptors and it was very hard for the Sixers to accept the offer at the time.

I am talking purely in hindsight and knowing that Leonard was largely healthy this year and that Durant got injured.

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