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Would swapping Tobias w D Russ make sense?

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If Tobias & D Russ swapped teams...

Both teams get better
23
47%
Only Sixers get better
7
14%
Only Nets get better
15
31%
Both teams get worse
4
8%
 
Total votes: 49

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Re: Would swapping Tobias w D Russ make sense? 

Post#41 » by sixers hoops » Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:31 pm

youngcrev wrote:What am I missing here? How isn't Harris a better shooter, even going by advanced metrics?


I assumed Tobias would be the better complement as floor spacer, as the better off-the-ball-shooter (better catch and shoot guy, corner three guy, etc.). Surprisingly, both players are pretty comparable in these areas. However, I’m not sure DLo would be happy with what I would likely project as a decrease in touches.

It may just be my perception of DLo, but I don’t see him in that role, and I don’t see him having the ball in his hands nearly as much as he would expect.
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Re: Would swapping Tobias w D Russ make sense? 

Post#42 » by sixers hoops » Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:47 pm

sixerswillrule wrote:
sixers hoops wrote:If we are committed to making the Simmons-Embiid pairing work, would adding a guy who is a lesser threat from deep be smart?

I feel like we can’t operate like other teams. We are in such a unique situation with Ben, we need all players in our rotation to be very good shooters from deep.

If we add Butler and DLo, then are we complaining about Embiid standing on the three point come playoffs again next year because we have four stars with no room to operate in the post? I feel like Harris should have a good shooting year as he continues to get better looks it our offense.


Russell and Harris are similar threats from deep, at least based on last season.

Russell - 37% from 3, 42% of FGA are 3PA, 8 3PA per game
Harris - 40% from 3, 31% of FGA are 3PA, 5 3PA per game

So Russell shoots it on higher volume but a slightly lower %. Butler being a mediocre outside shooter is an issue but that's the same now whether it's Harris or Russell.


Good points, but I think I’m more concerned with the gravity each player will have depending on their projected role. In so many of our sets, Tobias and JJ immediately setup in the corners. I could be wrong and oversimplifying things, but I don’t see DLo in this role at all. Tobias just seems willing to play a role with less touches.

I think 42% of attempts being 3 point attempts is relevant, but I imagine DLo as more of a guy who wants the ball in his hands. Then Ben is off-the-ball and we are back to last year’s playoffs.
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Re: Would swapping Tobias w D Russ make sense? 

Post#43 » by PhilaOwnsBoston » Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:59 pm

I think it has pros and cos.

The pros are this gives us another ball handler. I think we really need one. Our offense even with that firepower still stagnated in critical junctures of games, because Simmons is still useless a lot of the time in key offensive possessions against good defenses. Embiid's at his worst the more he has to put the ball on the floor. Redick obviously you don't want him putting it on the floor, and Harris is ok, but really a straight line drive or take a few steps and pull up, his ball handling isn't what creates open looks, it's his size and leverage. That leaves Butler at the ends of games being the one guy who can create offense with his ball handling. I think having Russell would open up a lot in that regard. But to me the cons may be too great to make up for it.

Inconsistent shooting, poor defensively, you lose size and rebounding. And it's not like he's Kemba Walker with the ball in his hands. I probably would rather have Harris. I think Russell's shortcomings would drive us nuts.
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Re: Would swapping Tobias w D Russ make sense? 

Post#44 » by Mik317 » Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:31 pm

again I don't think Russell is a Tobias swap but a Jimmy swap.

Jimmy already was butt hurt over not having the ball...having another guy who is best w/ the ball probably does not help.

I think its a great fall back option if both guys leave but if Tobais bails, then his "replacement" needs to be a guy who plays off ball mainly as that would probably be the main reason Tobias leaves actually..

BUT in a fantasy world where everything is great then hell yeah. IMO having multiple guys who can get their own shots is the next wave...especially if said guys are also capable of spotting up. That way whoever has it going that game can go off because the defense can't double. Also opens up the PNR game a ton via having multiple starting points.

However that is a fantasy world as most of those shot creator types don't like playing off ball. Not to mention a Dlo/JJ backcourt would be food on defense. Ben would probably not be too hype on giving up even more ballhandling. And Joel probably isn't too gassed about giving up shots. This is something we all kinda ignore but the human element is big. Because yeah these guys should all stop being big babies and be able to sacrifice but thats not how many of these guys get to this level lol. Jimmy is a self made guy so telling him to just spot up because Ben's feelings isn't going to fly. Telling Ben to give up on being a PG also probably doesn't go over too well. Its dumb but it is the reality of sports. Egos control a lot...especially in young players. Just gotta hope the lighbulb goes on sooner than later lol.
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Re: Would swapping Tobias w D Russ make sense? 

Post#45 » by ProcessDoctor » Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:58 pm

I would swap either Jimmy or Tobias for DLO tbh. Either way we get younger and stay the same or improve in the shooting department. If you swap DLO for Jimmy and use the MLE on a guy like Aminu you’re set.

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DLO/Redick/(2nd)
Harris/(Vet min)/Zhaire
Aminu/Scott/Bolden
Embiid/(1st)/Boban
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Re: Would swapping Tobias w D Russ make sense? 

Post#46 » by GutUNC » Sun Jun 16, 2019 11:53 pm

ProcessDoctor wrote:I would swap either Jimmy or Tobias for DLO tbh. Either way we get younger and stay the same or improve in the shooting department. If you swap DLO for Jimmy and use the MLE on a guy like Aminu you’re set.

Simmons/Milton/(2nd)
DLO/Redick/(2nd)
Harris/(Vet min)/Zhaire
Aminu/Scott/Bolden
Embiid/(1st)/Boban


Not sure how you improve shooting by signing Russell coming off a career best 43% from the floor, 37% from 3 over Harris who consistently shoots in the high 40s from the floor and 40% from 3. He's a better 3 point shooter then Jimmy but certainly not a better overall shooter since Butler has always been far more efficient overall.

A good secondary ball handler sounds great, but I have little interest in Russell's volume scoring game. Tobias has his warts, but at least he scores efficiently and doesn't demand constant shots.
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Re: Would swapping Tobias w D Russ make sense? 

Post#47 » by sixers hoops » Mon Jun 17, 2019 12:26 am

GutUNC wrote:
ProcessDoctor wrote:I would swap either Jimmy or Tobias for DLO tbh. Either way we get younger and stay the same or improve in the shooting department. If you swap DLO for Jimmy and use the MLE on a guy like Aminu you’re set.

Simmons/Milton/(2nd)
DLO/Redick/(2nd)
Harris/(Vet min)/Zhaire
Aminu/Scott/Bolden
Embiid/(1st)/Boban


Not sure how you improve shooting by signing Russell coming off a career best 43% from the floor, 37% from 3 over Harris who consistently shoots in the high 40s from the floor and 40% from 3. He's a better 3 point shooter then Jimmy but certainly not a better overall shooter since Butler has always been far more efficient overall.

A good secondary ball handler sounds great, but I have little interest in Russell's volume scoring game. Tobias has his warts, but at least he scores efficiently and doesn't demand constant shots.


After looking at their numbers, a lot of things surprised me about DLo that I didn’t expect. However, maybe I’m wrong, but I think being used to create spacing is somewhat of a specific role when you’re the third or fourth option. If you are of the opinion that you are a well rounded, volume scorer, often being asked to play a game that will suit your teammates more than yourself is difficult.

This is just my opinion and not based off any stats, but I feel like Tobias is someone that may accept that role, and his shooting numbers could increase as he gets comfortable. DLo strikes me as someone who sees himself as a star and may struggle if he is asked to play more as a floor spacer off the ball. I envision a situation where DLo wants to score in a style that is most effective for him, which gives us an increased crowd of ball dominators. Often floor spacing is created by a shooter’s willingness to stand off-the-ball as a threat while your Embiid, Simmons, and Butler control the ball. I’m not sure DLo is that player, and could conceivably make floor space worse.
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Re: Would swapping Tobias w D Russ make sense? 

Post#48 » by ProcessDoctor » Mon Jun 17, 2019 12:43 am

GutUNC wrote:
ProcessDoctor wrote:I would swap either Jimmy or Tobias for DLO tbh. Either way we get younger and stay the same or improve in the shooting department. If you swap DLO for Jimmy and use the MLE on a guy like Aminu you’re set.

Simmons/Milton/(2nd)
DLO/Redick/(2nd)
Harris/(Vet min)/Zhaire
Aminu/Scott/Bolden
Embiid/(1st)/Boban


Not sure how you improve shooting by signing Russell coming off a career best 43% from the floor, 37% from 3 over Harris who consistently shoots in the high 40s from the floor and 40% from 3. He's a better 3 point shooter then Jimmy but certainly not a better overall shooter since Butler has always been far more efficient overall.

A good secondary ball handler sounds great, but I have little interest in Russell's volume scoring game. Tobias has his warts, but at least he scores efficiently and doesn't demand constant shots.


Good points. I didn't realize how inefficient he was compared to JB. I guess his willingness to shoot 3's would space the floor but not sure it would necessarily make us better.
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Re: Would swapping Tobias w D Russ make sense? 

Post#49 » by sixerswillrule » Mon Jun 17, 2019 1:33 am

youngcrev wrote:What am I missing here? How isn't Harris a better shooter, even going by advanced metrics?


They both shot 39% on catch and shoot threes last season.
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Re: Would swapping Tobias w D Russ make sense? 

Post#50 » by sixerswillrule » Mon Jun 17, 2019 1:56 am

GutUNC wrote:
ProcessDoctor wrote:I would swap either Jimmy or Tobias for DLO tbh. Either way we get younger and stay the same or improve in the shooting department. If you swap DLO for Jimmy and use the MLE on a guy like Aminu you’re set.

Simmons/Milton/(2nd)
DLO/Redick/(2nd)
Harris/(Vet min)/Zhaire
Aminu/Scott/Bolden
Embiid/(1st)/Boban


Not sure how you improve shooting by signing Russell coming off a career best 43% from the floor, 37% from 3 over Harris who consistently shoots in the high 40s from the floor and 40% from 3. He's a better 3 point shooter then Jimmy but certainly not a better overall shooter since Butler has always been far more efficient overall.

A good secondary ball handler sounds great, but I have little interest in Russell's volume scoring game. Tobias has his warts, but at least he scores efficiently and doesn't demand constant shots.


Scoring efficiency and shooting are two different things. And FG% is obsolete. Shooting would stay around the same with Tobias for Russell but there would be a redundancy of ball-handlers. Shooting would obviously improve with Butler for Russell and I think the team's offense would improve. Butler is a more efficient scorer overall than Russell thanks to his ability to get to the line but Russell's shooting would add a different element to help out Simmons and Embiid. But Jimmy is of course a better defender and overall player so that changes things.
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Re: Would swapping Tobias w D Russ make sense? 

Post#51 » by youngcrev » Mon Jun 17, 2019 12:44 pm

sixerswillrule wrote:
youngcrev wrote:What am I missing here? How isn't Harris a better shooter, even going by advanced metrics?


They both shot 39% on catch and shoot threes last season.


I was looking at their spot up numbers under playtype rather than their individual player pages that show catch and shoot.
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Re: Would swapping Tobias w D Russ make sense? 

Post#52 » by Sixerscan » Mon Jun 17, 2019 1:28 pm

Lot of talk about shooting, I think the main hang up with Russell is on the other end. Harris isn’t great or anything but he can at least be averagish against multiple positions. If we’re playing that Raptors series again, Embiid can’t switch over to Siakam now because you don’t have anyone for Gasol.

Maybe the answer is Russell is cheaper so you can sign someone else and stay until the apron, but I’d have to see that first. I think I’d rather just keep Harris and be able to play Redick more (because Redick and Russell in the same backcourt is a problem on its own)
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Re: Would swapping Tobias w D Russ make sense? 

Post#53 » by NoDopeOnSundays » Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:41 pm

GutUNC wrote:
ProcessDoctor wrote:I would swap either Jimmy or Tobias for DLO tbh. Either way we get younger and stay the same or improve in the shooting department. If you swap DLO for Jimmy and use the MLE on a guy like Aminu you’re set.

Simmons/Milton/(2nd)
DLO/Redick/(2nd)
Harris/(Vet min)/Zhaire
Aminu/Scott/Bolden
Embiid/(1st)/Boban


Not sure how you improve shooting by signing Russell coming off a career best 43% from the floor, 37% from 3 over Harris who consistently shoots in the high 40s from the floor and 40% from 3. He's a better 3 point shooter then Jimmy but certainly not a better overall shooter since Butler has always been far more efficient overall.

A good secondary ball handler sounds great, but I have little interest in Russell's volume scoring game. Tobias has his warts, but at least he scores efficiently and doesn't demand constant shots.


You can't really compare Russell and Harris shooting numbers like that, a much higher percentage of DLO's shots come off isolation, he was assisted on only 29% of his buckets while Harris was at 50%. Also, he may be better as an offball player, for example in catch and shoot situations Russell was at 39% from three with the Nets while Harris shot 32.7% from three with the Sixers.

Russell looks like he's a streaky isolation scorer that may actually be better off the ball because it gives him the option to attack off the dribble once he catches or shoot it, but the Nets asked him to be an isolation scorer.
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Re: Would swapping Tobias w D Russ make sense? 

Post#54 » by VDT » Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:39 pm

Adding Russel in Harris' s place makes no sense to me. The team has already too many players that need the ball in their hands and have trouble playing off the ball and you want one more player that needs the ball and a young player at that which means he will be even less willing to sacrifice his game.

The first part of the puzzle the team needs to solve is Simmons. What is his realistic projection as a player, what is his role in the team and a related question what is the playstyle of this team. Simmons is going to demand max money after next year. Is he worth that if he is going to have a role like in the series against the Raptors? If we get Russell his role is going to be even more limited.

Sixers need to start building a team that makes sense and has chemistry and not just collect talent.
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Re: Would swapping Tobias w D Russ make sense? 

Post#55 » by cool93 » Mon Jun 17, 2019 6:19 pm

VDT wrote:Adding Russel in Harris' s place makes no sense to me. The team has already too many players that need the ball in their hands and have trouble playing off the ball and you want one more player that needs the ball and a young player at that which means he will be even less willing to sacrifice his game.

The first part of the puzzle the team needs to solve is Simmons. What is his realistic projection as a player, what is his role in the team and a related question what is the playstyle of this team. Simmons is going to demand max money after next year. Is he worth that if he is going to have a role like in the series against the Raptors? If we get Russell his role is going to be even more limited.

Sixers need to start building a team that makes sense and has chemistry and not just collect talent.
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Re: Would swapping Tobias w D Russ make sense? 

Post#56 » by Negrodamus » Mon Jun 17, 2019 6:21 pm

Any complaints about players needing the ball in their hands needs to take into consideration that Simmons is basically sitting under the basket in a half court setting and really doesn't provide any creation nor does he need the ball in his hands. He's a point guard in fast break only... or at least he should be.
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Re: Would swapping Tobias w D Russ make sense? 

Post#57 » by brannigan73 » Mon Jun 17, 2019 8:25 pm

Russell is not even close to a replacement for Jimmy Butler. Jimmy Butler had a 4.5 RPM this past season and usually is around 5-6 RPM which is really rarified air. I'd swap Russell for Harris but it would have to be at a nice discount. I don't want to max Harris. No way in the world Im maxing a goofball like Russell. If we could get Russell relatively cheap I would think about it as it would allow us to flesh out the bench and ensure a quality back up center. Personally I would let Harris walk and look at somebody like Nikola Mirotic who would certainly be much cheaper and has comparable plus minus type stats. Harris is not a big difference maker like Bulter we cant pay him like one.
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Re: Would swapping Tobias w D Russ make sense? 

Post#58 » by GutUNC » Mon Jun 17, 2019 8:58 pm

NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
GutUNC wrote:
ProcessDoctor wrote:I would swap either Jimmy or Tobias for DLO tbh. Either way we get younger and stay the same or improve in the shooting department. If you swap DLO for Jimmy and use the MLE on a guy like Aminu you’re set.

Simmons/Milton/(2nd)
DLO/Redick/(2nd)
Harris/(Vet min)/Zhaire
Aminu/Scott/Bolden
Embiid/(1st)/Boban


Not sure how you improve shooting by signing Russell coming off a career best 43% from the floor, 37% from 3 over Harris who consistently shoots in the high 40s from the floor and 40% from 3. He's a better 3 point shooter then Jimmy but certainly not a better overall shooter since Butler has always been far more efficient overall.

A good secondary ball handler sounds great, but I have little interest in Russell's volume scoring game. Tobias has his warts, but at least he scores efficiently and doesn't demand constant shots.


You can't really compare Russell and Harris shooting numbers like that, a much higher percentage of DLO's shots come off isolation, he was assisted on only 29% of his buckets while Harris was at 50%. Also, he may be better as an offball player, for example in catch and shoot situations Russell was at 39% from three with the Nets while Harris shot 32.7% from three with the Sixers.

Russell looks like he's a streaky isolation scorer that may actually be better off the ball because it gives him the option to attack off the dribble once he catches or shoot it, but the Nets asked him to be an isolation scorer.


I don't have the numbers at hand, but I feel pretty confident Harris shoots better out of catch and shoot then 32% for his career, which would be more indicative then his 1/2 season in Philadelphia and new teammates/system.

And Russell's shots coming off isolation isn't a positive from where I sit. Is he suddenly going to change the way he plays or is he going to force action where he's comfortable? I'd guess the latter. We know Harris is comfortable playing off ball on a more regular basis.
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Re: Would swapping Tobias w D Russ make sense? 

Post#59 » by Arsenal » Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:09 pm

Russell at the 25% MAX ($27M) vs. Harris at the 30% MAX ($32M) is a straight 100% no brainer. We'd be idiots to turn that down, however there's no way the Nets are dumb enough to do it.

I'd even have no problem adding assets in order to upgrade Harris into Russell, like our 1st this year and maybe a couple of 2nds also.

Russell just had an all-star season at age 22. He's going to get better for the next 5+ years. Meanwhile Harris will likely never be an all-star.

Then resign Mike Scott to start and bring back Redick off the bench. Utilize the $5M saved on the smaller max contract by signing another player with the full midlevel.

Defensive lineup:

PG Russell
SG Butler
SF Scott
PF Simmons
CE Embiid

Bench: Redick, Full MLE guy (Danny Green? Mirotic? Dedmon?)

This team is younger and even more talented with a core of a 23 year old Russell, 23 year old Simmons, and 25 year old Embiid going forward.

D'Angelo Russell is exactly what Markelle Fultz was supposed to be.
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Re: Would swapping Tobias w D Russ make sense? 

Post#60 » by Arsenal » Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:13 pm

Look, I'm not saying he's going to be as good, but getting a 22 year old D'Lo right now is probably the closest thing to getting a 22 year old James Harden. Check the comparison of their age 22 stats below. Keep in mind D'Lo had to carry his team as the 1st option while Harden was the 3rd or 4th option in OKC then.

http://bkref.com/tiny/KQcNL
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