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Would swapping Tobias w D Russ make sense?

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If Tobias & D Russ swapped teams...

Both teams get better
23
47%
Only Sixers get better
7
14%
Only Nets get better
15
31%
Both teams get worse
4
8%
 
Total votes: 49

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Re: Would swapping Tobias w D Russ make sense? 

Post#61 » by sixers hoops » Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:36 pm

Negrodamus wrote:Any complaints about players needing the ball in their hands needs to take into consideration that Simmons is basically sitting under the basket in a half court setting and really doesn't provide any creation nor does he need the ball in his hands. He's a point guard in fast break only... or at least he should be.


If I were coach, I would make Ben primarily a four until he can shoot at least a little bit. Then DLo’s role could be much different here.

Ben is useless as a perimeter player in the halfcourt. If he gets the rebound, then sure run the point in transition. Ultimately, it’s really tough to be an effective halfcourt team when a guy who doesn’t shoot hangs out on the perimeter.
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Re: Would swapping Tobias w D Russ make sense? 

Post#62 » by GutUNC » Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:36 pm

Arsenal wrote:Look, I'm not saying he's going to be as good, but getting a 22 year old D'Lo right now is probably the closest thing to getting a 22 year old James Harden. Check the comparison of their age 22 stats below. Keep in mind D'Lo had to carry his team as the 1st option while Harden was the 3rd or 4th option in OKC then.

http://bkref.com/tiny/KQcNL


I understand you're not making an apples:apples comparison between Harden and Russell but I look at those numbers and see a player (Harden) who's significantly better across the board so I don't know what the analogy is supposed to prove.
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Re: Would swapping Tobias w D Russ make sense? 

Post#63 » by sixers hoops » Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:41 pm

Arsenal wrote:Russell at the 25% MAX ($27M) vs. Harris at the 30% MAX ($32M) is a straight 100% no brainer. We'd be idiots to turn that down, however there's no way the Nets are dumb enough to do it.

I'd even have no problem adding assets in order to upgrade Harris into Russell, like our 1st this year and maybe a couple of 2nds also.

Russell just had an all-star season at age 22. He's going to get better for the next 5+ years. Meanwhile Harris will likely never be an all-star.

Then resign Mike Scott to start and bring back Redick off the bench. Utilize the $5M saved on the smaller max contract by signing another player with the full midlevel.

Defensive lineup:

PG Russell
SG Butler
SF Scott
PF Simmons
CE Embiid

Bench: Redick, Full MLE guy (Danny Green? Mirotic? Dedmon?)

This team is younger and even more talented with a core of a 23 year old Russell, 23 year old Simmons, and 25 year old Embiid going forward.

D'Angelo Russell is exactly what Markelle Fultz was supposed to be.


Makes sense. I do get the feeling that Brett would have another tough puzzle to solve next year.

I think he will go back to Ben at point, since I believe he said that. When again, against I lot of better teams we will be much better with a Jimmy or DLo having the ball.
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Re: Would swapping Tobias w D Russ make sense? 

Post#64 » by Negrodamus » Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:51 pm

sixers hoops wrote:
Negrodamus wrote:Any complaints about players needing the ball in their hands needs to take into consideration that Simmons is basically sitting under the basket in a half court setting and really doesn't provide any creation nor does he need the ball in his hands. He's a point guard in fast break only... or at least he should be.


If I were coach, I would make Ben primarily a four until he can shoot at least a little bit. Then DLo’s role could be much different here.

Ben is useless as a perimeter player in the halfcourt. If he gets the rebound, then sure run the point in transition. Ultimately, it’s really tough to be an effective halfcourt team when a guy who doesn’t shoot hangs out on the perimeter.


The only question I might have is: Is D'Angelo Russell a good half court point guard? I haven't looked into the numbers enough to know that answer. He an Embiid are a match made in heaven though.
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Re: Would swapping Tobias w D Russ make sense? 

Post#65 » by NoDopeOnSundays » Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:15 pm

GutUNC wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
GutUNC wrote:
Not sure how you improve shooting by signing Russell coming off a career best 43% from the floor, 37% from 3 over Harris who consistently shoots in the high 40s from the floor and 40% from 3. He's a better 3 point shooter then Jimmy but certainly not a better overall shooter since Butler has always been far more efficient overall.

A good secondary ball handler sounds great, but I have little interest in Russell's volume scoring game. Tobias has his warts, but at least he scores efficiently and doesn't demand constant shots.


You can't really compare Russell and Harris shooting numbers like that, a much higher percentage of DLO's shots come off isolation, he was assisted on only 29% of his buckets while Harris was at 50%. Also, he may be better as an offball player, for example in catch and shoot situations Russell was at 39% from three with the Nets while Harris shot 32.7% from three with the Sixers.

Russell looks like he's a streaky isolation scorer that may actually be better off the ball because it gives him the option to attack off the dribble once he catches or shoot it, but the Nets asked him to be an isolation scorer.


I don't have the numbers at hand, but I feel pretty confident Harris shoots better out of catch and shoot then 32% for his career, which would be more indicative then his 1/2 season in Philadelphia and new teammates/system.

And Russell's shots coming off isolation isn't a positive from where I sit. Is he suddenly going to change the way he plays or is he going to force action where he's comfortable? I'd guess the latter. We know Harris is comfortable playing off ball on a more regular basis.



Harris numbers over his career are probably better, but what he shot with the Sixers in catch and shoot situations should matter too, he's going to be shooting from the same spots with the same kind of looks that resulted in his current numbers. I expect him to be better after a full training camp with the Sixers provided he stays.

Russells shots coming in isolation would be concerning if his catch and shoot numbers weren't so good, that shows that he may be able to play off the ball a lot more than he's doing with the Nets. They needed him to create, the fact he shot so well in catch and shoot situations says there's more to his game than what he showed.
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Re: Would swapping Tobias w D Russ make sense? 

Post#66 » by GutUNC » Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:21 pm

NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
GutUNC wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
You can't really compare Russell and Harris shooting numbers like that, a much higher percentage of DLO's shots come off isolation, he was assisted on only 29% of his buckets while Harris was at 50%. Also, he may be better as an offball player, for example in catch and shoot situations Russell was at 39% from three with the Nets while Harris shot 32.7% from three with the Sixers.

Russell looks like he's a streaky isolation scorer that may actually be better off the ball because it gives him the option to attack off the dribble once he catches or shoot it, but the Nets asked him to be an isolation scorer.


I don't have the numbers at hand, but I feel pretty confident Harris shoots better out of catch and shoot then 32% for his career, which would be more indicative then his 1/2 season in Philadelphia and new teammates/system.

And Russell's shots coming off isolation isn't a positive from where I sit. Is he suddenly going to change the way he plays or is he going to force action where he's comfortable? I'd guess the latter. We know Harris is comfortable playing off ball on a more regular basis.



Harris numbers over his career are probably better, but what he shot with the Sixers in catch and shoot situations should matter too, he's going to be shooting from the same spots with the same kind of looks that resulted in his current numbers. I expect him to be better after a full training camp with the Sixers provided he stays.

Russells shots coming in isolation would be concerning if his catch and shoot numbers weren't so good, that shows that he may be able to play off the ball a lot more than he's doing with the Nets. They needed him to create, the fact he shot so well in catch and shoot situations says there's more to his game than what he showed.


Or it's a death rattle in a contract year. I don't think we can say either with a great degree of confidence.
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Re: Would swapping Tobias w D Russ make sense? 

Post#67 » by VDT » Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:42 pm

D' Angelo and his shooting is getting overrated here. In his four years in the league he has shot 35%,35%, 32% and 37%. Granted last year he shot more than any other year (but not that much more) but one has to wonder whether this year (like last year) was just an outlier or he has really improved his shooting. Mind you his ft shooting has stayed the same throughout the years with yearly percentages of 74%, 78%, 74%, 78% in chronological order. Not only there is no improvement but his actual percentages are not those of an elite shooter which would be around 90%.
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Re: Would swapping Tobias w D Russ make sense? 

Post#68 » by Ben » Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:35 am

GutUNC wrote:
Arsenal wrote:Look, I'm not saying he's going to be as good, but getting a 22 year old D'Lo right now is probably the closest thing to getting a 22 year old James Harden. Check the comparison of their age 22 stats below. Keep in mind D'Lo had to carry his team as the 1st option while Harden was the 3rd or 4th option in OKC then.

http://bkref.com/tiny/KQcNL


I understand you're not making an apples:apples comparison between Harden and Russell but I look at those numbers and see a player (Harden) who's significantly better across the board so I don't know what the analogy is supposed to prove.


VDT wrote:D' Angelo and his shooting is getting overrated here. In his four years in the league he has shot 35%,35%, 32% and 37%. Granted last year he shot more than any other year (but not that much more) but one has to wonder whether this year (like last year) was just an outlier or he has really improved his shooting. Mind you his ft shooting has stayed the same throughout the years with yearly percentages of 74%, 78%, 74%, 78% in chronological order. Not only there is no improvement but his actual percentages are not those of an elite shooter which would be around 90%.



The overrating is happening partly because folks are looking just at last year rather than at Russell's cumulative stats. If one does the Harden-Russell comparison on their cumulative stats at age 22, the comparison looks less favorable:
http://bkref.com/tiny/5fJgr
Advanced stats far worse across the board.

One of the things that made Harden elite even coming out of college was his ability to draw fouls and get to the line. 7.7 FTA/game as a college sophomore is just outstanding, as is a collegiate 61.8% career true shooting percentage for a guard. Ability to get to the line (as with ability to rebound) tends to translate pretty well from college to the pros. Russell hasn't shown anything like that ability, which is one major reason why the comparison's inapt. (I'm not commenting one way or the other on Harris for Russell. I badly wanted Russell for the Sixers when he was coming out of college.)
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Re: Would swapping Tobias w D Russ make sense? 

Post#69 » by bball4life » Tue Jun 18, 2019 2:17 pm

Russell is so overrated here. The guy literally never gets to the line because he literally never takes the ball to the hole. He settles for weird mid range pull up floaters and off balance lousy shots instead.

Also, he's an awful defender. We just saw what happens when a team has at least above average defenders at every position and didn't get exposed (hint, they won a championship). In the Sixers/Nets series, Dlo was the Sixer's best player. He was practically unplayable in that series and they used Dinwiddie more and more as the series went on because he's significantly better.

DLo is a volume chucker who is afraid of contact at the rim and plays no defense. NO THANK YOU
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Re: Would swapping Tobias w D Russ make sense? 

Post#70 » by Negrodamus » Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:56 pm

Read on Twitter


Suns look unlikely.
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Re: Would swapping Tobias w D Russ make sense? 

Post#71 » by Arsenal » Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:00 pm

Ben wrote:
GutUNC wrote:
Arsenal wrote:Look, I'm not saying he's going to be as good, but getting a 22 year old D'Lo right now is probably the closest thing to getting a 22 year old James Harden. Check the comparison of their age 22 stats below. Keep in mind D'Lo had to carry his team as the 1st option while Harden was the 3rd or 4th option in OKC then.

http://bkref.com/tiny/KQcNL


I understand you're not making an apples:apples comparison between Harden and Russell but I look at those numbers and see a player (Harden) who's significantly better across the board so I don't know what the analogy is supposed to prove.


VDT wrote:D' Angelo and his shooting is getting overrated here. In his four years in the league he has shot 35%,35%, 32% and 37%. Granted last year he shot more than any other year (but not that much more) but one has to wonder whether this year (like last year) was just an outlier or he has really improved his shooting. Mind you his ft shooting has stayed the same throughout the years with yearly percentages of 74%, 78%, 74%, 78% in chronological order. Not only there is no improvement but his actual percentages are not those of an elite shooter which would be around 90%.



The overrating is happening partly because folks are looking just at last year rather than at Russell's cumulative stats. If one does the Harden-Russell comparison on their cumulative stats at age 22, the comparison looks less favorable:
http://bkref.com/tiny/5fJgr
Advanced stats far worse across the board.

One of the things that made Harden elite even coming out of college was his ability to draw fouls and get to the line. 7.7 FTA/game as a college sophomore is just outstanding, as is a collegiate 61.8% career true shooting percentage for a guard. Ability to get to the line (as with ability to rebound) tends to translate pretty well from college to the pros. Russell hasn't shown anything like that ability, which is one major reason why the comparison's inapt. (I'm not commenting one way or the other on Harris for Russell. I badly wanted Russell for the Sixers when he was coming out of college.)


No doubt Harden has a major advantage because of his FT rate. Russell will never come close to that, although he still has room to improve his own FT rate significantly. That is untapped upside potential.

Overall you have to keep in mind that Russell played on straight garbage teams, and also came in as a 19 year old. OTOH Harden came in as a 20 year old and played on stacked teams from the jump. That is a big factor for the difference in efficiency.

Again I'm not trying to say he'll be as good as Harden, but he's a 22 year old scoring guard who has already made an all-star team. Those guys don't come around often. We'll see how close he gets as he improves over the next several years.

However comparisons to Harden notwithstanding, Russell is significantly more valuable than Tobias.
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Re: Would swapping Tobias w D Russ make sense? 

Post#72 » by Negrodamus » Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:29 am

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Man, this Irving, Dinwiddie, LeVert backcourt is going to be fun next year.
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Re: Would swapping Tobias w D Russ make sense? 

Post#73 » by Arsenal » Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:36 am

Negrodamus wrote:
Read on Twitter


Man, this Irving, Dinwiddie, LeVert backcourt is going to be fun next year.


Looks like they'll have $47M in cap if they waive Napier, and renounce everyone except D'Lo. Assume they sign Kyrie for the MAX of $32M. Then they have $15M left. I assume they need a PF, so maybe they sign a guy like Mirotic. Then they have:

PG Irving | Dinwiddie |
SG Russell | Harris | Graham
SF LeVert | Prince |
PF Mirotic | Kurucs |
CE Allen |

Plus the Room Exception for a backup center. Then #27 also.

Solid team. Could make noise next year.
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Re: Would swapping Tobias w D Russ make sense? 

Post#74 » by Arsenal » Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:39 am

Worse would be if somehow they got Horford for a first year of $15M instead of Mirotic. That Nets team would be dangerous.
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Re: Would swapping Tobias w D Russ make sense? 

Post#75 » by GutUNC » Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:43 am

Arsenal wrote:
Negrodamus wrote:
Read on Twitter


Man, this Irving, Dinwiddie, LeVert backcourt is going to be fun next year.


Looks like they'll have $47M in cap if they waive Napier, and renounce everyone except D'Lo. Assume they sign Kyrie for the MAX of $32M. Then they have $15M left. I assume they need a PF, so maybe they sign a guy like Mirotic. Then they have:

PG Irving | Dinwiddie |
SG Russell | Harris | Graham
SF LeVert | Prince |
PF Mirotic | Kurucs |
CE Allen |

Plus the Room Exception for a backup center. Then #27 also.

Solid team. Could make noise next year.


An Irving/Russell backcourt would hemorrhage points on defense even worse then they did last year.
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Re: Would swapping Tobias w D Russ make sense? 

Post#76 » by Arsenal » Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:50 am

GutUNC wrote:
Arsenal wrote:
Negrodamus wrote:
Read on Twitter


Man, this Irving, Dinwiddie, LeVert backcourt is going to be fun next year.


Looks like they'll have $47M in cap if they waive Napier, and renounce everyone except D'Lo. Assume they sign Kyrie for the MAX of $32M. Then they have $15M left. I assume they need a PF, so maybe they sign a guy like Mirotic. Then they have:

PG Irving | Dinwiddie |
SG Russell | Harris | Graham
SF LeVert | Prince |
PF Mirotic | Kurucs |
CE Allen |

Plus the Room Exception for a backup center. Then #27 also.

Solid team. Could make noise next year.


An Irving/Russell backcourt would hemorrhage points on defense even worse then they did last year.


I assume they give it a shot. If it doesn't work they trade D'Lo later. Would be very surprised if they let him walk.
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Re: Would swapping Tobias w D Russ make sense? 

Post#77 » by Foshan » Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:52 am

Arsenal wrote:Worse would be if somehow they got Horford for a first year of $15M instead of Mirotic. That Nets team would be dangerous.

THis would be like worst case scenario imo. I’m kind of hoping Al didn’t like playing with Kyrie. Because if they had someone who could give Embiid problems, like horford, we would not have made it out of the first round.
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Re: Would swapping Tobias w D Russ make sense? 

Post#78 » by youngcrev » Wed Jun 19, 2019 3:04 am

Foshan wrote:
Arsenal wrote:Worse would be if somehow they got Horford for a first year of $15M instead of Mirotic. That Nets team would be dangerous.

THis would be like worst case scenario imo. I’m kind of hoping Al didn’t like playing with Kyrie. Because if they had someone who could give Embiid problems, like horford, we would not have made it out of the first round.


You think? I feel like the Nets were a lot more than an Al Horford away from beating us.
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Re: Would swapping Tobias w D Russ make sense? 

Post#79 » by Foshan » Wed Jun 19, 2019 3:13 am

They played so much better when Allen could stay in the game and not get in foul trouble in the first 2 mins. Horford lets them do that, while also providing an extra rim protector. I think it would dynamically change the series...

That said, i’m Having a bad day, could be just a bit pessimistic atm. Lol
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Re: Would swapping Tobias w D Russ make sense? 

Post#80 » by Sixerscan » Wed Jun 19, 2019 3:15 am

Regular reminder that Embiid had 37/22 the last time we played the Celtics...

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