ImageImageImage

Welcome Al Horford(?!?)

Moderators: HartfordWhalers, Foshan, BullyKing, sixers hoops, Sixerscan

Kobblehead
RealGM
Posts: 30,516
And1: 12,725
Joined: Apr 15, 2010
 

Re: Welcome Al Horford(?!?) 

Post#281 » by Kobblehead » Wed Apr 22, 2020 6:48 pm

Brad Stevens' gameplan against Giannis was to wall him off from driving and to swarm him with help defenders when he got the ball in the post on Horford.

We don't even have to wall off Giannis because Ben can check him on the perimeter. We just can't leave Ben on an island when Giannis turns and starts backing him down or goes to the post and catches an entry pass.

I still think we're dedicating too much time and energy into worrying about Giannis in the playoffs. There's no nuance whatsoever to his halfcourt game and he's not very skilled. He's not even their closer.
User avatar
76ciology
RealGM
Posts: 42,298
And1: 13,306
Joined: Jun 06, 2002
Contact:

Re: Welcome Al Horford(?!?) 

Post#282 » by 76ciology » Thu Apr 23, 2020 6:25 am

Kobblehead wrote:Brad Stevens' gameplan against Giannis was to wall him off from driving and to swarm him with help defenders when he got the ball in the post on Horford.

We don't even have to wall off Giannis because Ben can check him on the perimeter. We just can't leave Ben on an island when Giannis turns and starts backing him down or goes to the post and catches an entry pass.

I still think we're dedicating too much time and energy into worrying about Giannis in the playoffs. There's no nuance whatsoever to his halfcourt game and he's not very skilled. He's not even their closer.


That wall didn’t work that well after game 1. It can and will work in spurts but it wont work like if you do it 48 minutes in a 7 game series.

I think its responsibility of the FO to construct a roster to counter the top teams you project to face in the finals. Like how Raps maneuvered to get Gasol to neutralize Biid, despite I know you guys dont believe Gasol can slow down Biid.

I think a good game to watch how this plan works was the christmas day game against the Bucks, where Biid was able to stay in front of Giannis. Sure Biid can slow down Giannis but what happens if Biid sits due to fatigue, emotion again, feeling under the weather again or foul trouble. Then maybe watch game 1 of the Celts-Bucks series where Al and the Stevens wall was able to slow down Giannis. Combining those two gives you a good chance to beat the Bucks. ..and the Raptors and the Lakers.

Its what they called as a “copy cat league”. It’s more preparing a roster to face the top teams in the league.
“Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there is absolutely no point.”
User avatar
76ciology
RealGM
Posts: 42,298
And1: 13,306
Joined: Jun 06, 2002
Contact:

Re: Welcome Al Horford(?!?) 

Post#283 » by 76ciology » Thu Apr 23, 2020 6:28 am

Anyway that is where the rationale with the Al Horford addition.

It’s more of getting the upper hand in match-ups in the playoffs than having the 5 man unit with the highest NetRtg.
“Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there is absolutely no point.”
Kobblehead
RealGM
Posts: 30,516
And1: 12,725
Joined: Apr 15, 2010
 

Re: Welcome Al Horford(?!?) 

Post#284 » by Kobblehead » Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:28 pm

The Bucks are basically Russell Westbrook in team form. They go hard as hell while everyone else is at 80% effort and appear more threatening than they actually are. I don't think any Eastern playoff teams are really sweating them.

In the playoffs when transition buckets disappear, Giannis is reduced to:

- Standing in the dunker's spot in the halfcourt
- Clunkily driving into the teeth of the defense and either turning it over or drawing a foul (and shooting low 60% from the free throw line).
User avatar
76ciology
RealGM
Posts: 42,298
And1: 13,306
Joined: Jun 06, 2002
Contact:

Re: Welcome Al Horford(?!?) 

Post#285 » by 76ciology » Fri Apr 24, 2020 5:57 am

Kobblehead wrote:The Bucks are basically Russell Westbrook in team form. They go hard as hell while everyone else is at 80% effort and appear more threatening than they actually are. I don't think any Eastern playoff teams are really sweating them.

In the playoffs when transition buckets disappear, Giannis is reduced to:

- Standing in the dunker's spot in the halfcourt
- Clunkily driving into the teeth of the defense and either turning it over or drawing a foul (and shooting low 60% from the free throw line).


The problem with RW at his peak was Adams is clogging the paint that his man can provide help defense and his best help was Oladipo.

Bucks is the better version of this with BroLo spacing the floor while having guys like Middleton and Bledsoe for help. It’s like Presti went to the time machine to correct his mistake, replaced Adams with a stretch 5, improved the team’s overall’s 3pt ability, let KD be the alpha then traded RW for a wing who can shoot.

I also find Giannis tougher player to defend. A lot of people can match-up with RW, unlike with Giannis. Giannis unassisted dunks is comparable to prime Shaq. He is that dominant. He just doesn’t look like it because most of his games we watched is with Biid defending him. Biid and Kawhi are probably the best defenders against Giannis now.
“Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there is absolutely no point.”
Kobblehead
RealGM
Posts: 30,516
And1: 12,725
Joined: Apr 15, 2010
 

Re: Welcome Al Horford(?!?) 

Post#286 » by Kobblehead » Sun Apr 26, 2020 12:56 am

If Presti was staring at Giannis, he'd just see a Westbrook/Ibaka amalgamation, not a Durant-type that can close out playoff games and get to the Finals with.

I agree that Giannis is the most dominant guy we've seen since Shaq. But where's the Penny, Kobe, Dwyane to takeover in the halfcourt for him in playoff games? I don't think one of Khris Middleton/Eric Bledsoe is good enough to drive the halfcourt offense of a title team.
snoopdogg88
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,795
And1: 2,996
Joined: Jun 03, 2010
       

Re: Welcome Al Horford(?!?) 

Post#287 » by snoopdogg88 » Mon Apr 27, 2020 2:29 pm

I don't understand how people are still downplaying the Bucks. had this season not been cancelled, they would've cruised to the Finals.

they aren't the most "star studded" team in the league. everyone knows that. but they've been playing together for years and building elite chemistry. (instead of blowing it up every season like us) not to mention they are the deepest team in the NBA by far. 1-15, they have quality NBA players. no g-league garbage filling out the roster.
they are the blueprint of how to build a small market team when you can't get superstars to join you in FA.

the rest of the East is a joke compared to them. they aren't losing to Miami or Toronto or the Sixers.
Kobblehead
RealGM
Posts: 30,516
And1: 12,725
Joined: Apr 15, 2010
 

Re: Welcome Al Horford(?!?) 

Post#288 » by Kobblehead » Mon Apr 27, 2020 2:42 pm

snoopdogg88 wrote:I don't understand how people are still downplaying the Bucks. had this season not been cancelled, they would've cruised to the Finals.

they aren't the most "star studded" team in the league. everyone knows that. but they've been playing together for years and building elite chemistry. (instead of blowing it up every season like us) not to mention they are the deepest team in the NBA by far. 1-15, they have quality NBA players. no g-league garbage filling out the roster.
they are the blueprint of how to build a small market team when you can't get superstars to join you in FA.

the rest of the East is a joke compared to them. they aren't losing to Miami or Toronto or the Sixers.

They would have gotten ousted by either Toronto, Boston or Miami.

- Depth is irrelevant in the playoffs. Only 7 or 8 guys play.
- They still don't have a closer.
User avatar
76ciology
RealGM
Posts: 42,298
And1: 13,306
Joined: Jun 06, 2002
Contact:

Re: Welcome Al Horford(?!?) 

Post#289 » by 76ciology » Tue Apr 28, 2020 12:06 pm

You know why Presti added CP3 and RW to pair with Harden? Because he knew after the numerous exits that you can’t just rely on one guy during the playoffs.

After GSW took a break last year, the league has been weak. With the absence of an all time great team like the big 3 of Spurs, heatles, cavs big 3 and warriors 73 win + KD.

But make no mistake. Bucks and the Raps are the top 2 teams in the east. And both are in the top 3 teams in the league. They will beat a team that will take them lightly.

Sure you can wall Siakam or Giannis on defense but they have a lot of guys who can hurt you. I think Bucks was the top 2 3pt shooting team in the league. If you don’t plan your roster well against them, you guys opportunities for guys like Van Fleet or Middleton to rise and look like stars.
“Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there is absolutely no point.”
Kobblehead
RealGM
Posts: 30,516
And1: 12,725
Joined: Apr 15, 2010
 

Re: Welcome Al Horford(?!?) 

Post#290 » by Kobblehead » Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:35 pm

76ciology wrote:You know why Presti added CP3 and RW to pair with Harden? Because he knew after the numerous exits that you can’t just rely on one guy during the playoffs.

After GSW took a break last year, the league has been weak. With the absence of an all time great team like the big 3 of Spurs, heatles, cavs big 3 and warriors 73 win + KD.

But make no mistake. Bucks and the Raps are the top 2 teams in the east. And both are in the top 3 teams in the league. They will beat a team that will take them lightly.

Sure you can wall Siakam or Giannis on defense but they have a lot of guys who can hurt you. I think Bucks was the top 2 3pt shooting team in the league. If you don’t plan your roster well against them, you guys opportunities for guys like Van Fleet or Middleton to rise and look like stars.


Giannis + Middleton and Bledsoe = championship
Siakam + Lowry and VanVleet = championship

The formula isn't impossible. There's precedent of it working (Duncan + Parker and Giniboli = championship)

The track record of champions suggests that the team in lieu of a tradition star level closer to pair with the frontcourt player has a far lower chance of winning it all, though.
youngcrev
RealGM
Posts: 21,405
And1: 3,927
Joined: Jun 12, 2005
Location: Philadelphia(ish)
   

Re: Welcome Al Horford(?!?) 

Post#291 » by youngcrev » Wed May 6, 2020 12:19 am

If the NBA ended up granting an amnesty due to revenue losses from the shutdown, do you think they'd hit the delete button on Horford?
Kobblehead
RealGM
Posts: 30,516
And1: 12,725
Joined: Apr 15, 2010
 

Re: Welcome Al Horford(?!?) 

Post#292 » by Kobblehead » Wed May 6, 2020 12:24 am

youngcrev wrote:If the NBA ended up granting an amnesty due to revenue losses from the shutdown, do you think they'd hit the delete button on Horford?

I'd hope they exercise it on Harris. Longer term, more absurd money.

We basically only have two more seasons of Horford and then we have a partial out if we cut him. That's not the worst. Why burn an amnesty on him?
youngcrev
RealGM
Posts: 21,405
And1: 3,927
Joined: Jun 12, 2005
Location: Philadelphia(ish)
   

Re: Welcome Al Horford(?!?) 

Post#293 » by youngcrev » Wed May 6, 2020 12:50 am

Kobblehead wrote:
youngcrev wrote:If the NBA ended up granting an amnesty due to revenue losses from the shutdown, do you think they'd hit the delete button on Horford?

I'd hope they exercise it on Harris. Longer term, more absurd money.

We basically only have two more seasons of Horford and then we have a partial out if we cut him. That's not the worst. Why burn an amnesty on him?


They're both ugly contracts, but I think you get a lot more bang for your buck out of Tobias currently, and I expect that gap to continue as with him being in his prime throughout the course of his contract vs Horford being on the decline. He already can't effectively play with our best player, I don't see that changing as he gets older.
Kobblehead
RealGM
Posts: 30,516
And1: 12,725
Joined: Apr 15, 2010
 

Re: Welcome Al Horford(?!?) 

Post#294 » by Kobblehead » Wed May 6, 2020 1:12 am

Why try to extract maximum value out of the Harris deal, though? Just cut ties and wash your hands of the mistake. The mistake of Horford is less financially burdensome and takes care of itself much sooner.

I'd rather use the amnesty clause on the mistake that is bigger and longer. Otherwise, it feels like you're just wasting it.
ankle420breaker
General Manager
Posts: 7,874
And1: 1,112
Joined: Sep 21, 2005
Location: South Jersey

Re: Welcome Al Horford(?!?) 

Post#295 » by ankle420breaker » Wed May 6, 2020 2:44 am

Its close, but I'd probably prioritize Harris over Horford if an amnesty opportunity presented itself.

Sent from my SM-G970U using RealGM mobile app
User avatar
Foshan
Forum Mod - 76ers
Forum Mod - 76ers
Posts: 9,715
And1: 1,275
Joined: Jan 10, 2009

Re: Welcome Al Horford(?!?) 

Post#296 » by Foshan » Wed May 6, 2020 5:35 am

ankle420breaker wrote:Its close, but I'd probably prioritize Harris over Horford if an amnesty opportunity presented itself.

Sent from my SM-G970U using RealGM mobile app

Id really look to move Harris, i think he would have some value somewhere... and then drop Horford. One fell swoop and they are both gone
rzzzzz
Veteran
Posts: 2,910
And1: 838
Joined: Feb 21, 2015
 

Re: Welcome Al Horford(?!?) 

Post#297 » by rzzzzz » Wed May 6, 2020 3:01 pm

Harris played well for Doc. Horford played well for Stevens. Richardson played well for Spoelstra, etc.
youngcrev
RealGM
Posts: 21,405
And1: 3,927
Joined: Jun 12, 2005
Location: Philadelphia(ish)
   

Re: Welcome Al Horford(?!?) 

Post#298 » by youngcrev » Sun May 10, 2020 4:36 pm

rzzzzz wrote:Harris played well for Doc. Horford played well for Stevens. Richardson played well for Spoelstra, etc.


Don't think you'd get much argument if your point is that those guys are better coaches than Brett.

I will say that unless you are giving credit to Doc for Harris shooting better from 3 there, he's pretty much the same exact player (but plays better defense now). Never was worth anywhere near the money we gave him (or trade package for the rights to give him that contract).

Horford was undeniably a better roster fit with Boston where he could play his actual position and be more involved offensively. You could say he's been misused here, particularly defensively, but I think his game is tough to mesh offensively with the starters. The team has played pretty well with him when Jo is off the floor, but that's a massive salary for a guy that can't play with your best player.

RIchardson seems snake bitten by the hamstring every time he starts to put a string of good games together. You could definitely say he's been misused as a primary creator (though it's not much different of a role that he had with Miami last year, where he was also misused), but I'd say that's more due to roster construction once again.

A better coach could probably solve some of the Sixers issues, but I'm not sure a better coach is available, and the roster deficiencies feels like the bigger issue to me. That said, the roster construction might look a lot different with a coach that's more likely to lean on perimeter playmakers. Hard to imagine Elton would go into the season with Trey Burke as his best PnR playmaker if he had a coach that ran a PnR centric offense.
rzzzzz
Veteran
Posts: 2,910
And1: 838
Joined: Feb 21, 2015
 

Re: Welcome Al Horford(?!?) 

Post#299 » by rzzzzz » Mon May 11, 2020 4:11 pm

youngcrev wrote:Don't think you'd get much argument if your point is that those guys are better coaches than Brett.


i know we get different takes on Brett from JJ than Jimmy. but i remember last year when any number of commentators talked about Biid, Ben, Jimmy, Harris and JJ being the best line-up in the league, by a fair margin. i believe that Brett may have coached a little better after the dust settled after Jimmy (and Biid's) concerns about the scheme not matching the talent. but i surely got the feeling that this line-up was kind of squandered, and disappointed that we wouldn't get another shot with it. yeah, Al seemed like a great back-up. but if holding onto Brett had anything to do with the summer's personnel change, then i'll remain disappointed that the organization didn't have the courage to bet on a wilier coach, until Brett proves me wrong by stringing a couple of titles together.
Kobblehead
RealGM
Posts: 30,516
And1: 12,725
Joined: Apr 15, 2010
 

Re: Welcome Al Horford(?!?) 

Post#300 » by Kobblehead » Mon May 11, 2020 4:39 pm

I think Harris the only guy you can make an argument for playing far better with another coach.

Horford is an old man now and he's playing out of position.

Richardson sucked his final year in Miami under Spolstra, too.

Return to Philadelphia 76ers