Shake or Carsen?

[youngcrev]

The problem is that Brand locked in on Thybulle. If he hadn't made the trade, there's no guarantee that Thybulle would've been gone when they picked. In fact, when they made their "promise" the assumption was that he would still be available when they picked. Look at Brandon Clarke, who went the next pick afterward - he looks like a legit player. Boston clearly didn't want Thybulle (or probably Brandon Clarke) or they wouldn't have made the deal to move down. So if they just stayed where they were, the Sixers likely would've gotten Thybulle, or at the very least Brandon Clarke. This is the problem with thinking by keeping the pick and taking Edwards they either 1. wouldn't have gotten Thybulle anyway or 2. gotten another great looking prospect like Clarke.

I was really hoping Clarke was the guy we were trading up for even though the fit wasn't great. But why would you assume players that weren't on the board would be there if we didn't make the trade? Memphis liked Clarke enough to trade up for him. Maybe the Sixers had intel that the Thunder were going to take Thybulle. Seems pretty feasible that if the Sixers don't make the deal, Boston take Williams at 20, Thunder take Thybulle, Memphis trades up with Boston for Clarke at 22.

I do agree about telegraphing punches being a big issue for this front office though. Seems like we've lost on value in every deal we've made aside from the Ennis trade. The overall picture of bleeding assets is a bigger issue than any individual move IMO. It's carryover from the Colangelo era.

[the_process]

I agree that it’s very frustrating that this organization seemingly doesn’t even try to gain any value at the margins.

[ckchen]

The problem is that Brand locked in on Thybulle. If he hadn't made the trade, there's no guarantee that Thybulle would've been gone when they picked. In fact, when they made their "promise" the assumption was that he would still be available when they picked. Look at Brandon Clarke, who went the next pick afterward - he looks like a legit player. Boston clearly didn't want Thybulle (or probably Brandon Clarke) or they wouldn't have made the deal to move down. So if they just stayed where they were, the Sixers likely would've gotten Thybulle, or at the very least Brandon Clarke. This is the problem with thinking by keeping the pick and taking Edwards they either 1. wouldn't have gotten Thybulle anyway or 2. gotten another great looking prospect like Clarke.

I was really hoping Clarke was the guy we were trading up for even though the fit wasn't great. But why would you assume players that weren't on the board would be there if we didn't make the trade? Memphis liked Clarke enough to trade up for him. Maybe the Sixers had intel that the Thunder were going to take Thybulle. Seems pretty feasible that if the Sixers don't make the deal, Boston take Williams at 20, Thunder take Thybulle, Memphis trades up with Boston for Clarke at 22.

I do agree about telegraphing punches being a big issue for this front office though. Seems like we've lost on value in every deal we've made aside from the Ennis trade. The overall picture of bleeding assets is a bigger issue than any individual move IMO. It's carryover from the Colangelo era.

Sure, this is possible - but if you look at it, Memphis traded a 2024 2nd round pick to move up to 21. You think that if Philly wanted to move up to 21, they couldn't have traded #34 and their pick and retained the higher pick in the 2nd round to possibly use? Or like...any future 2nd rounder that we have dozens of (that would likely never be as high as #33 in future years?) And there were other players on the board there too, Keldon Johnson, Windler, etc. if for some reason both of those guys didn't slip through to 24. It just seems like by locking yourself into one guy, you create your own sense of urgency that you HAVE to get that guy, and get antsy and want to trade up while at the same time losing all leverage in those deals in order to trade up. From the outside looking in it seems pretty clear by the fact that they didn't even bring in first round talents for workouts that they were never considering anything but their one single option of Thybulle, which is just...ridiculous.

[Sixerscan]

The problem is that Brand locked in on Thybulle. If he hadn't made the trade, there's no guarantee that Thybulle would've been gone when they picked. In fact, when they made their "promise" the assumption was that he would still be available when they picked. Look at Brandon Clarke, who went the next pick afterward - he looks like a legit player. Boston clearly didn't want Thybulle (or probably Brandon Clarke) or they wouldn't have made the deal to move down. So if they just stayed where they were, the Sixers likely would've gotten Thybulle, or at the very least Brandon Clarke. This is the problem with thinking by keeping the pick and taking Edwards they either 1. wouldn't have gotten Thybulle anyway or 2. gotten another great looking prospect like Clarke.

I was really hoping Clarke was the guy we were trading up for even though the fit wasn't great. But why would you assume players that weren't on the board would be there if we didn't make the trade? Memphis liked Clarke enough to trade up for him. Maybe the Sixers had intel that the Thunder were going to take Thybulle. Seems pretty feasible that if the Sixers don't make the deal, Boston take Williams at 20, Thunder take Thybulle, Memphis trades up with Boston for Clarke at 22.

I do agree about telegraphing punches being a big issue for this front office though. Seems like we've lost on value in every deal we've made aside from the Ennis trade. The overall picture of bleeding assets is a bigger issue than any individual move IMO. It's carryover from the Colangelo era.

Sure, this is possible - but if you look at it, Memphis traded a 2024 2nd round pick to move up to 21. You think that if Philly wanted to move up to 21, they couldn't have traded #34 and their pick and retained the higher pick in the 2nd round to possibly use? Or like...any future 2nd rounder that we have dozens of (that would likely never be as high as #33 in future years?) And there were other players on the board there too, Keldon Johnson, Windler, etc. if for some reason both of those guys didn't slip through to 24. It just seems like by locking yourself into one guy, you create your own sense of urgency that you HAVE to get that guy, and get antsy and want to trade up while at the same time losing all leverage in those deals in order to trade up. From the outside looking in it seems pretty clear by the fact that they didn't even bring in first round talents for workouts that they were never considering anything but their one single option of Thybulle, which is just...ridiculous.

Maybe OKC traded back and the Sixers traded up because OKC wanted Thybulle. Then once he was gone they traded back for cheap.

Just seems like a waste of time to argue with people whose default assumption is that the gm could have gotten a better result if he just tried harder or there isn’t a logical reason why the thing they wanted to happen didn’t happen.

And they worked out a bunch of people in that range including Grant Williams and Carsen Edwards.

[ckchen]

Maybe OKC traded back and the Sixers traded up because OKC wanted Thybulle. Then once he was gone they traded back for cheap.

Just seems like a waste of time to argue with people whose default assumption is that the gm could have gotten a better result if he just tried harder or there isn’t a logical reason why the thing they wanted to happen didn’t happen.

Sure, I mean I liked what I saw from Carsen Edwards, but really for me this more of an issue of management thinking/strategy/direction, and this is just how I got there. Maybe I need to rejoin the "Fire Elton Brand" thread again.

[Sixerscan]

Maybe OKC traded back and the Sixers traded up because OKC wanted Thybulle. Then once he was gone they traded back for cheap.

Just seems like a waste of time to argue with people whose default assumption is that the gm could have gotten a better result if he just tried harder or there isn’t a logical reason why the thing they wanted to happen didn’t happen.

Sure, I mean I liked what I saw from Carsen Edwards, but really for me this more of an issue of management thinking/strategy/direction, and this is just how I got there. Maybe I need to rejoin the "Fire Elton Brand" thread again.

I’m not sure how you can reliably judge any of that without inside information of what was going on in the draft.

How do you know they didn’t try to do exactly what you laid out and the other teams said no? Why not judge him based on the team on the court and not a theoretical alternative you don’t know is possible?

[Sixerfever216]

Whether we kept #33 or #34 is irrelevant as we were never going to keep the pick anyway. So we wouldn't have gotten Edwards no matter what.

We have to keep trading away early 2nd rounders in exchange for future picks to sell to line the cheap owners' pockets.

How are so many people missing this? We were never keeping the pick. I don't love the refusal to use early 2nds either but the idea that we would have had Edwards is silly. That pick was most likely gone one way or the other and that's before getting to the assumption that Edwards would have been our pick anyway.

Because people want to be right instead of listening to what Elton said. Carsen Edwards was one of the names I seen floated around on the board alot. So the fact Boston selected him with one of our picks and he played well in summer league People can pat there self on the back and say " YES I WAS RIGHT!!! I Knew he would be a good player". Instead of looking at the bigger picture getting Thybulle and a team poised to make a deep playoff run

[youngcrev]

The problem is that Brand locked in on Thybulle. If he hadn't made the trade, there's no guarantee that Thybulle would've been gone when they picked. In fact, when they made their "promise" the assumption was that he would still be available when they picked. Look at Brandon Clarke, who went the next pick afterward - he looks like a legit player. Boston clearly didn't want Thybulle (or probably Brandon Clarke) or they wouldn't have made the deal to move down. So if they just stayed where they were, the Sixers likely would've gotten Thybulle, or at the very least Brandon Clarke. This is the problem with thinking by keeping the pick and taking Edwards they either 1. wouldn't have gotten Thybulle anyway or 2. gotten another great looking prospect like Clarke.

I was really hoping Clarke was the guy we were trading up for even though the fit wasn't great. But why would you assume players that weren't on the board would be there if we didn't make the trade? Memphis liked Clarke enough to trade up for him. Maybe the Sixers had intel that the Thunder were going to take Thybulle. Seems pretty feasible that if the Sixers don't make the deal, Boston take Williams at 20, Thunder take Thybulle, Memphis trades up with Boston for Clarke at 22.

I do agree about telegraphing punches being a big issue for this front office though. Seems like we've lost on value in every deal we've made aside from the Ennis trade. The overall picture of bleeding assets is a bigger issue than any individual move IMO. It's carryover from the Colangelo era.

Sure, this is possible - but if you look at it, Memphis traded a 2024 2nd round pick to move up to 21. You think that if Philly wanted to move up to 21, they couldn't have traded #34 and their pick and retained the higher pick in the 2nd round to possibly use? Or like...any future 2nd rounder that we have dozens of (that would likely never be as high as #33 in future years?) And there were other players on the board there too, Keldon Johnson, Windler, etc. if for some reason both of those guys didn't slip through to 24. It just seems like by locking yourself into one guy, you create your own sense of urgency that you HAVE to get that guy, and get antsy and want to trade up while at the same time losing all leverage in those deals in order to trade up. From the outside looking in it seems pretty clear by the fact that they didn't even bring in first round talents for workouts that they were never considering anything but their one single option of Thybulle, which is just...ridiculous.

Right, but if we presume the Sixers were jumping the Thunder to get Thybulle, I don't imagine the Thunder would still be trading back if he was there.

I agree in general though. Or you could even look at what Boston did with 24 as an option for us. Probably could of dumped that Simmons money and a got a future 1st. It would make the "we need every dollar we can get" line make a lot more sense since you no longer have that 2.5M cap hold of your 1st on the books and would have more breathing room to maneuver this offseason.

On the flip side, maybe their scouts nailed it and Thybulle is a stud, in which case, all is good.

[ckchen]

Maybe OKC traded back and the Sixers traded up because OKC wanted Thybulle. Then once he was gone they traded back for cheap.

Just seems like a waste of time to argue with people whose default assumption is that the gm could have gotten a better result if he just tried harder or there isn’t a logical reason why the thing they wanted to happen didn’t happen.

Sure, I mean I liked what I saw from Carsen Edwards, but really for me this more of an issue of management thinking/strategy/direction, and this is just how I got there. Maybe I need to rejoin the "Fire Elton Brand" thread again.

I’m not sure how you can reliably judge any of that without inside information of what was going on in the draft.

How do you know they didn’t try to do exactly what you laid out and the other teams said no? Why not judge him based on the team on the court and not a theoretical alternative you don’t know is possible?

But you can reliably judge him based on things he actually said and did, though right? Like I said, my issue was never specifically about Carsen Edwards although that's how we got there. It's about a terrible approach to the draft, including a draft promise, locking in on Thybulle, not bringing in any first round talents to evaluate or work out, selling picks, saying that there's "no room" for young players beyond what's already on the team, saying that he "needs all of the money that he can get" and doing nothing justifiable with that money, etc.

Unfortunately, I think just saying "if Thybulle pans out, it was all worth it" is the easy way out. I hope the guy is great. My issue is with process and the line of thinking, not necessarily just the results.

[Sixerscan]

Sure, I mean I liked what I saw from Carsen Edwards, but really for me this more of an issue of management thinking/strategy/direction, and this is just how I got there. Maybe I need to rejoin the "Fire Elton Brand" thread again.

I’m not sure how you can reliably judge any of that without inside information of what was going on in the draft.

How do you know they didn’t try to do exactly what you laid out and the other teams said no? Why not judge him based on the team on the court and not a theoretical alternative you don’t know is possible?

But you can reliably judge him based on things he actually said and did, though right? Like I said, my issue was never specifically about Carsen Edwards although that's how we got there. It's about a terrible approach to the draft, including a draft promise, locking in on Thybulle, not bringing in any first round talents to evaluate or work out, selling picks, saying that there's "no room" for young players beyond what's already on the team, saying that he "needs all of the money that he can get" and doing nothing justifiable with that money, etc.

Unfortunately, I think just saying "if Thybulle pans out, it was all worth it" is the easy way out. I hope the guy is great. My issue is with process and the line of thinking, not necessarily just the results.

It’s just not true that they didn’t bring in any prospects. And most people on here thought they locked in on a completely different player (Cam Johnson) around draft time so everyone acting like it was obvious now is rich. (Ironically I was one of the few people on here that predicted they wanted Thybulle)

They used all their cap space so I’m not sure how saying they didn’t do anything with the money makes sense. Look at the first post of this thread.

At this point people just use “bad process” as a fill in for “they didn’t do what I wanted them to do.” There’s an argument to be made that using a second round pick that you don’t have an obvious role to move up to get a player you do have an obvious role for is good process.

[DaSixers]

I repeat, Carsen Edwards is basically Isaiah Canaan, only Canaan was a much better shooter in college. I think Edwards is going to have problems when NBA teams throw length at him. He's not explosive enough to get by that length and finish at the rim. He also doesn't have a lot of playmaking skills like Trae Young. If you look at Canaan and Edwards they are pretty close. I'm not losing any sleep over Isaiah Canaan so I'm not going to lose any sleep over Edwards. Edwards may prove me wrong, but I'll believe it when I see it.

lolol these 2 players are literally NOTHING a like

[DaSixers]

also, according to some of you, its ok to pass on a potentially really good player simply because we were never going to keep the pick anyways.. LOL ok.

correct me if I am wrong, but we still have the ability to add another player to this team no? That spot could have gone to Edwards, or whoever we drafted in the 2nd.. we could have not given shake a 4 year deal right away and instead see how things go. Point is.. you dont just not draft a possible impact player because of random reasons.

Now, you can say our scouting department didnt have edwards pegged as a potentially impact player, but then I would tell you that is a bad sign for our scouting department

Anyone who thinks carsen edwards is going to be out of the league in a year or 2 is absolutely incorrect. Kid checks every box except height. His work ethic is as good as it gets, his confidence level is damn near Kobe level, and his talent is evident. I dont think he is ever a starting player on a winning team, but he will absolutely be a 6th man on a winning team

[stormi]

Gotta realize that in the position Brand was in, he had no leverage. Danny Ainge didn't do anything special or activate some sort of manager wizardry.

The rumor is that OKC wanted Thybulle, and we also really wanted Thybulle. That's it, they were ahead of us and the priority of our scouting staff coming into the draft was to get Thybulle. Boston had no real reason to trade back, so for us, we were in a position of mercy.

The only thing I hope Elton did was make calls to the teams at 17,18,19 and see if any of those teams would budge on a pick swap at a lower cost. If he did, and he exercised all his options, then I can't be all the way upset at him. In fact, i'm glad that he left the draft with his guy.

[Sixerscan]

Gotta realize that in the position Brand was in, he had no leverage. Danny Ainge didn't do anything special or activate some sort of manager wizardry.

The rumor is that OKC wanted Thybulle, and we also really wanted Thybulle. That's it, they were ahead of us and the priority of our scouting staff coming into the draft was to get Thybulle. Boston had no real reason to trade back, so for us, we were in a position of mercy.

The only thing I hope Elton did was make calls to the teams at 17,18,19 and see if any of those teams would budge on a pick swap at a lower cost. If he did, and he exercised all his options, then I can't be all the way upset at him. In fact, i'm glad that he left the draft with his guy.

Youre right, but let’s not lose sight of all ainge got was a 2nd round pick, I’m not sure how much leverage he had.

The issue is people are acting like we traded a lottery pick in the trade.

[ckchen]

I’m not sure how you can reliably judge any of that without inside information of what was going on in the draft.

How do you know they didn’t try to do exactly what you laid out and the other teams said no? Why not judge him based on the team on the court and not a theoretical alternative you don’t know is possible?

But you can reliably judge him based on things he actually said and did, though right? Like I said, my issue was never specifically about Carsen Edwards although that's how we got there. It's about a terrible approach to the draft, including a draft promise, locking in on Thybulle, not bringing in any first round talents to evaluate or work out, selling picks, saying that there's "no room" for young players beyond what's already on the team, saying that he "needs all of the money that he can get" and doing nothing justifiable with that money, etc.

Unfortunately, I think just saying "if Thybulle pans out, it was all worth it" is the easy way out. I hope the guy is great. My issue is with process and the line of thinking, not necessarily just the results.

It’s just not true that they didn’t bring in any prospects. And most people on here thought they locked in on a completely different player (Cam Johnson) around draft time so everyone acting like it was obvious now is rich. (Ironically I was one of the few people on here that predicted they wanted Thybulle)

They used all their cap space so I’m not sure how saying they didn’t do anything with the money makes sense. Look at the first post of this thread.

At this point people just use “bad process” as a fill in for “they didn’t do what I wanted them to do.” There’s an argument to be made that using a second round pick that you don’t have an obvious role to move up to get a player you do have an obvious role for is good process.

I don't have the workout lists anymore because I have long since deleted them, but they brought in very few prospects that were projected to go even in the late 1st round for pre-draft workouts. Several in the media even commented about how that was the case, which is also likely why the draft promise thing was eventually connected.

The Cam Johnson thing was much earlier in the process, but by the day or two days before the draft, I think it was pretty clear to everyone that Thybulle was the pick - he was selected by many mock drafters with pretty clear confidence for a reason. people definitely knew, and Johnson coming off the board so early only cemented that. Everyone also knew that it was pretty unlikely that Cam Johnson would've even made it as far down to where the Sixers were picking.

As for "using their cap space" - the point is that the $333k he had to have by using the pick to dump simmons instead of waiving and stretching him was completely inconsequential, both this and the following 2 seasons. They were always going to over the cap

[Sixerscan]

But you can reliably judge him based on things he actually said and did, though right? Like I said, my issue was never specifically about Carsen Edwards although that's how we got there. It's about a terrible approach to the draft, including a draft promise, locking in on Thybulle, not bringing in any first round talents to evaluate or work out, selling picks, saying that there's "no room" for young players beyond what's already on the team, saying that he "needs all of the money that he can get" and doing nothing justifiable with that money, etc.

Unfortunately, I think just saying "if Thybulle pans out, it was all worth it" is the easy way out. I hope the guy is great. My issue is with process and the line of thinking, not necessarily just the results.

It’s just not true that they didn’t bring in any prospects. And most people on here thought they locked in on a completely different player (Cam Johnson) around draft time so everyone acting like it was obvious now is rich. (Ironically I was one of the few people on here that predicted they wanted Thybulle)

They used all their cap space so I’m not sure how saying they didn’t do anything with the money makes sense. Look at the first post of this thread.

At this point people just use “bad process” as a fill in for “they didn’t do what I wanted them to do.” There’s an argument to be made that using a second round pick that you don’t have an obvious role to move up to get a player you do have an obvious role for is good process.

I don't have the workout lists anymore because I have long since deleted them, but they brought in very few prospects that were projected to go even in the late 1st round for pre-draft workouts. Several in the media even commented about how that was the case, which is also likely why the draft promise thing was eventually connected.

The Cam Johnson thing was much earlier in the process, but by the day or two days before the draft, I think it was pretty clear to everyone that Thybulle was the pick - he was selected by many mock drafters with pretty clear confidence for a reason. people definitely knew, and Johnson coming off the board so early only cemented that. Everyone also knew that it was pretty unlikely that Cam Johnson would've even made it as far down to where the Sixers were picking.

As for "using their cap space" - the point is that the $333k he had to have by using the pick to dump simmons instead of waiving and stretching him was completely inconsequential, both this and the following 2 seasons. They were always going to over the cap

Off the top of my head they worked out Cam Johnson, Edwards, Grant Williams and the Euro guy the spurs took. They worked out Johnson a second time like 2 days before the draft and people were mad they were telegraphing the pick since they did the same thing with Zhaire the year before.

You can point to 5 different reports that say 5 different things saying who they were targeting. Pompey was saying during the draft they were targeting Naz Little. If they traded up to get Johnson you would be saying how obvious it was they were targeting him.

They used that cap space to sign Horford or Shake or to make the Butler trade work, take your pick.

[Mavericksfan]

Shake because he fits the Sixers scheme defensively

I don’t understand the obsession with Edwards when he will be a defensive liability and he’s not a great shot creator for others. The Sixers have enough scorers. They’re hanging their hat on building an extremely versatile defensive team built around Tobias/Joel/Simmons playmaking.

Where does Carson fit in? He’ll likely be able to get his shots up (who knows how efficently) but I don’t see anything he’ll bring that would fit the Sixers current scheme.

[Sixerfever216]

Shake because he fits the Sixers scheme defensively

I don’t understand the obsession with Edwards when he will be a defensive liability and he’s not a great shot creator for others. The Sixers have enough scorers. They’re hanging their hat on building an extremely versatile defensive team built around Tobias/Joel/Simmons playmaking.

Where does Carson fit in? He’ll likely be able to get his shots up (who knows how efficently) but I don’t see anything he’ll bring that would fit the Sixers current scheme.

People just want to be able say they were right that's all. Everybody wants to say I like Prospect A B or C ,HEY look I was right Prospect A is Killin the summer league LOL Carsen Edwards was one of the name floated around on this board before the draft and the fact he was picked by Boston with one of our 2nd rounders and he did good In the summer league now that gives the Carsen Edwards fans another reason to be upset/ pat there self on the back for being right about him.

Nevermind the fact Elton told us his plan before the draft. He had no plans of using the 2nd rounders he wanted to bring in veteran playoff ready guys. Also give him credit he got his guy THYBULLE. Nobody is giving him points for that which is CRAZY. This was very unique draft because GMs were valuing Shooting over upside that's why guys like Cam Johnson, Tyler Herro, Windler and Kyle Guy moved up alot in the draft. I think it put a unique twist on the draft and like Elton stated after the draft guys they liked were going off the board and they had to trade up and get there guy.