Retain both or build around one

[WSmith23]

People keep saying how Butler was such a bad loss and a leader etc. IMO the bigger loss was JJ in the leadership stakes and the game play impact (you see how a lesser Furkan when cooking helps the team). Yes hunted on defense but never as bad as people make out. Hopefully Matisse can develop that 3 point and learn movement (wish we didn’t lose shame either, was looking like JJ clone at cheap price at one time).

[Kobblehead]

Bigger loss? Jimmy actually gives us a chance to contend. Redick's spacing and leadership are definitely missed, but he wouldn't impact our contention.

[WSmith23]

For the difference in salary, cap space and team chemistry, yeah might be a hot take but I consider JJ a bigger loss. Team just doesn’t look as happy anymore. People seem to be saying Embiid misses butler but I think he misses reddick more. Also JJ seemed to be respected by both Ben and Joel.

[phifans]

Two lies about Joel vs Ben everywhere.

1. Joel has sacrificed most. (while actually it's his teammates who has to slow down the pace to fit his unconditioned body and sacrifice possessions to make Joel happy and not to bash on the media everytime he doesn't get enough touch.)

2. Ben' style won't work in po. (while to be honest Joel doesn't even have one since he is basically a 1 on 1 iso score machine who has no clue how to deal with double man defense and can't see any teammates once he gets the ball)

[youngcrev]

Two lies about Joel vs Ben everywhere.

1. Joel has sacrificed most. (while actually it's his teammates who has to slow down the pace to fit his unconditioned body and sacrifice possessions to make Joel happy and not to bash on the media everytime he doesn't get enough touch.)

2. Ben' style won't work in po. (while to be honest Joel doesn't even have one since he is basically a 1 on 1 iso score machine who has no clue how to deal with double man defense and can't see any teammates once he gets the ball)

I don't think either of those things are lies.

[phifans]

Two lies about Joel vs Ben everywhere.

1. Joel has sacrificed most. (while actually it's his teammates who has to slow down the pace to fit his unconditioned body and sacrifice possessions to make Joel happy and not to bash on the media everytime he doesn't get enough touch.)

2. Ben' style won't work in po. (while to be honest Joel doesn't even have one since he is basically a 1 on 1 iso score machine who has no clue how to deal with double man defense and can't see any teammates once he gets the ball)

I don't think either of those things are lies.

Yeah calling it a lie maybe too much but still a misleading information

[WSmith23]

Two lies about Joel vs Ben everywhere.

1. Joel has sacrificed most. (while actually it's his teammates who has to slow down the pace to fit his unconditioned body and sacrifice possessions to make Joel happy and not to bash on the media everytime he doesn't get enough touch.)

2. Ben' style won't work in po. (while to be honest Joel doesn't even have one since he is basically a 1 on 1 iso score machine who has no clue how to deal with double man defense and can't see any teammates once he gets the ball)

I don't think either of those things are lies.

Yeah calling it a lie maybe too much but still a misleading information

I think the pace is the most interesting thing. I’m not convinced that style can work in playoffs (unless you have peak warriors type shooting). But I recall bellinelli and ersan were saying they were shocked how quickly the team played. Especially in that 16 streak win, amd while yes was against lots of weaker teams but darn was that an exciting and effective style of play. Again not convinced it can work playoffs but who knows. Houston doubly down, Giannis ball, maybe trying something different against the grain might work? Might as well as can’t see us winning at all unless extremely lucky or something weird happens

[Kobblehead]

2. Ben' style won't work in po.

There is no transition offense in the playoffs.

You can't just space the floor with shooters and run offense through a mediocre ball handler. That is a regular season gimmick.

[phifans]

2. Ben' style won't work in po.

There is no transition offense in the playoffs.

You can't just space the floor with shooters and run offense through a mediocre ball handler. That is a regular season gimmick.

I don't regard Ben's style as a simply transition offense. Nobody could win games rely on transition only even in regular season. It's more like pushing the pace and focus on keep moving and passing the wide open chances make it work no matter you are in transition or half court offense. Anyway at least Ben style seems work most of time in regular season meanwhile I can't even call the same on Joel if he does have one.

[Kobblehead]

He's a C. You're supposed to pair Cs with star level ball handlers to win a championship. There's tons of examples throughout NBA history of that formula working. The closest thing to a star ball handler we got to see with Embiid was a few months of Butler and the potential that pairing showed was immense.

[phifans]

I think the pace is the most interesting thing. I’m not convinced that style can work in playoffs (unless you have peak warriors type shooting). But I recall bellinelli and ersan were saying they were shocked how quickly the team played. Especially in that 16 streak win, amd while yes was against lots of weaker teams but darn was that an exciting and effective style of play. Again not convinced it can work playoffs but who knows. Houston doubly down, Giannis ball, maybe trying something different against the grain might work? Might as well as can’t see us winning at all unless extremely lucky or something weird happens

We have no choice buddy it's not like we are choosing from two equally good scheme. We either choose Ben's system who may not work in po or choose Joel's stagnant offense which we can't even call it a system and fail to work even in regular season.

[youngcrev]

Two lies about Joel vs Ben everywhere.

1. Joel has sacrificed most. (while actually it's his teammates who has to slow down the pace to fit his unconditioned body and sacrifice possessions to make Joel happy and not to bash on the media everytime he doesn't get enough touch.)

2. Ben' style won't work in po. (while to be honest Joel doesn't even have one since he is basically a 1 on 1 iso score machine who has no clue how to deal with double man defense and can't see any teammates once he gets the ball)

I don't think either of those things are lies.

Yeah calling it a lie maybe too much but still a misleading information

I dunno, up until this year when they made the switch to gigantic ball, they've played at a pretty fast pace. And obviously Jo has been far more willing to space the floor than Ben has, so I don't see how Ben has made more concessions.

And in the playoffs, those early offense opportunities that he excels at just aren't there nearly as much. We've seen Jo be less effective offensively in the half court, but we've also seen Ben be a straight up liability offensively at times.

[Mik317]

Joel may not be the one who sacrifices the most...but he;s damn sure not the least.

The fastbreak system has been proven by history to not work in the playoffs tho. There are less turnovers, offenses are generally crisper and thus less rebounds and teams are generally more on their game...so they can get back. The playoffs is a half court time. Hell the Warriors were some of the greatest teams of all time and their run and gun got shut down a lot and required Steph to do more in the half court and getting KD gave them a better option...thats what made them so deadly, its why the Nash Suns never won it all. Its why the Lob City Clippers never won it all.

Joel's post up heavy offense also does not have history on its side BUT it is a half court offense. As is, we cannot run it because defenses are okay with our mediocre shooters beating them over Joel getting their guys in foul trouble or tired...especially when one of the guys aren't even thinking about shooting. Joel has to get better at reading double teams and IMO generally has to make decisions quicker. He has to fight for position better and get a go to post up move. So he's not perfect either...not even close. That being said however, his way is more viable than Ben's way atm. Get him shooters defenses actually worry about. Get him a shot creator who can get him easy looks or get their own shot. And thats a tough team to defend. Teams will have to second guess double teams even with Embiid's struggles and the better option might be just forcing 1 on 1s...which is still scary. There are options and it makes the defense have to make choices. With Ben, the choice is simply to back off and force Ben to make contested layups because he;s not going to shoot...Its the same thing we do to Giannis..and Ben is not Giannis.

The fact that this meme of Ben not having to shoot still exists is just bad. We legit saw last year that the **** MVP got sent home because he couldn't shoot...and yet here we are still going we should build around Ben.

This does not mean we should trade Ben either. He just has to **** start shooting. Because then you can upgrade at other positions and have TWO systems to go to at will instead of just relying on one. Again the Warriors had the Splash Bros method...and then added KD's iso heavy system when things stopped working. Bron had his method (which despite his best efforts often was not enough) and then also Kyrie's dribble dribble fadeaway. Having two styles should not be this bad thing...both guys need to grow up and be more flexible. Joel seems willing to chuck 3s on occasion (he will whine about it but still)...Ben has taken 2 3s all year.....jus sayin

[WSmith23]

2. Ben' style won't work in po.

There is no transition offense in the playoffs.

You can't just space the floor with shooters and run offense through a mediocre ball handler. That is a regular season gimmick.

While teams may focus on transition defense rather than offensive rebounds, why can someone who is one of the quickest in the league not push the ball after a stop and go to the rim or find a pass if others are keeping up? Genuinely curious why, as people still have the same physical strengths and skills? You don’t have to slow it down necessarily if the opportunity is there.

[WSmith23]

He's a C. You're supposed to pair Cs with star level ball handlers to win a championship. There's tons of examples throughout NBA history of that formula working. The closest thing to a star ball handler we got to see with Embiid was a few months of Butler and the potential that pairing showed was immense.

When was the last time a team with a dominant centre win a championship? Was asked by some commentators recently? Shaq? Times have changed?

[Mik317]

when was the last time a team who's best player cannot shoot won a championship?

both guys have history working against their current versions

(also the answer is ironically Dirk lol. Yeah he shot 3s but that year he beat the Heat , he was putting in work in the post)

[WSmith23]

when was the last time a team who's best player cannot shoot won a championship?

both guys have history working against their current versions

(also the answer is ironically Dirk lol. Yeah he shot 3s but that year he beat the Heat , he was putting in work in the post)

Yes very true, that’s why I’m not so optimistic of anything this year. We have both talented players but somehow need a genius coach to think of a way to get best out of them. Think beyond on the norm and unlock something brilliant... otherwise the alternate is trying what others do and somehow do it better...

[Kobblehead]

When was the last time a team with a dominant centre win a championship? Was asked by some commentators recently? Shaq? Times have changed?

That's purely due to rarity of the archetype. Embiid is pretty much the only elite talent behemoth to enter the league since Shaq. The formula will still work.

Shame on us for missing so many opportunities to pair him with a star talent ball handler.

[phifans]

Time has changed guys you've got to move on.

And u guys really compared KD's iso to Joel's ? I don't remember KD holds the ball for five seconds or more just to wait for the double teams from opponents. Joel's heavy post game won't work under any circumstances with or without shooters.

Joel is a deadly weapon on offense as a 1 on 1 scorer that's it. You can rely on him to score a little bit but there's no way you can run any system around him before he learns how to be a better decision maker.

[Kobblehead]

Time has changed guys you've got to move on.

And u guys really compared KD's iso to Joel's ? I don't remember KD holds the ball for five seconds or more just to wait for the double teams from opponents. Joel's heavy post game won't work under any circumstances with or without shooters.

Joel is a deadly weapon on offense as a 1 on 1 scorer that's it. You can rely on him to score a little bit but there's no way you can run any system around him before he learns how to be a better decision maker.

Nobody said we can successfully run offense through Joel in the post on this current team with a bunch of glorified role players surrounding him. We need a star ball handler to pair him with.

We could have had Ingram, Brown, or Murray in 2016.
We could have had Mitchell, Fox, or Tatum in 2017.
We could have had Gilgeous-Alexander in 2018.
We could have re-signed Butler.
We could have renounced everyone and went after Walker.

We messed up every which way to complete the proven championship winning formula to pair Embiid with a star talent ball handler.