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Sixers Lineups Thread

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Re: Sixers Lineups Thread 

Post#141 » by Kobblehead » Tue Dec 1, 2020 2:45 pm

76ciology wrote:Not a starting unit but this 5 man unit is intriguing

The unit lacks a creater (as will every non-Maxey lineup we field), but I think it would be our best all-around lineup. Defense would be elite. Possibly the best 5 man defensive pairing that could be formed, league-wide. The rebounding would be elite. If Thybulle shoots well, even the spacing would be fine (Green is a knockdown volume shooter).

If we have an 8 point lead in the 4th quarter, this lineup closes the game for us defensively.
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Re: Sixers Lineups Thread 

Post#142 » by Kobblehead » Tue Dec 1, 2020 3:02 pm

Sixerscan wrote:Shake's playoff series against Boston would have been one of the better offensive playoff series in Lou's career. His stuff has never really consistently translated to the playoffs. I think a big part of it is his herky jerk stuff is a bit of a gimmick that teams scout better and the refs don't give as much in a playoff series. And he doesn't have the physical stature to overcome a lot of that.

It's hard to compare, given that the roles that they play are so dramatically different.

Lou Williams is asked to knife in and create against 5 engaged defenders. Whereas, 57% of Shake's shot attempts were assisted threes. So of course the guy with the much harder role is going to score less efficiently. Using Lou Williams like you would use Shake Milton would a complete waste of his talents, though.
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Re: Sixers Lineups Thread 

Post#143 » by Kolkmania » Tue Dec 1, 2020 3:03 pm

Kobblehead wrote:
eyeatoma wrote:No one else is a knock down shooter.

Not singling you out because I've seen this sentiment posted at least 10+ times in the last couple of weeks.

Are people not aware of what Danny Green does? He's a career 40% three point shooter with 1283 career makes beyond the arc.


Green is a very good standstill shooter which is really useful for us and absolutely a positive for our spacing. However Curry shoots the same amount of 3's per 100 pp, but hits 4 percentage points more on average and with higher % unassisted shots.

Green is really good, Curry is elite. I do think they're in a separate class from a shooting perspective. Definition of "knock down shooter" is a bit subjective.

With the lack of perimeter creation in our roster, we need someone who can create scoring opportunities. Curry can do that, Green cannot. Therefore I think that Curry is absolutely vital for us and will be part of our best unit. Unless Maxey can offer perimeter creation, but that's unlikely since he's a young rookie.
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Re: Sixers Lineups Thread 

Post#144 » by Kobblehead » Tue Dec 1, 2020 3:09 pm

Kolkmania wrote:Green is a very good standstill shooter which is really useful for us and absolutely a positive for our spacing. However Curry shoots the same amount of 3's per 100 pp, but hits 4 percentage points more on average and with higher % unassisted shots.

Green is really good, Curry is elite. I do think they're in a separate class from a shooting perspective. Definition of "knock down shooter" is a bit subjective.

With the lack of perimeter creation in our roster, we need someone who can create scoring opportunities. Curry can do that, Green cannot. Therefore I think that Curry is absolutely vital for us and will be part of our best unit. Unless Maxey can offer perimeter creation, but that's unlikely since he's a young rookie.


While getting abused mercilessly on the defensive end. Especially in a playoff series. Just because Seth sidesteps an aggressive closeout and generates a fake unassisted shot doesn't mean he can create off the dribble. We need guys that can create off the dribble or guys that can defend. Fielding a bunch of shooting-reliant players that couldn't defend or dribble was the reason we got swept in the playoffs last year. Seth is another shooting specialist that can't defend or dribble.
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Re: Sixers Lineups Thread 

Post#145 » by Sixerscan » Tue Dec 1, 2020 3:45 pm

Kobblehead wrote:
Sixerscan wrote:Shake's playoff series against Boston would have been one of the better offensive playoff series in Lou's career. His stuff has never really consistently translated to the playoffs. I think a big part of it is his herky jerk stuff is a bit of a gimmick that teams scout better and the refs don't give as much in a playoff series. And he doesn't have the physical stature to overcome a lot of that.

It's hard to compare, given that the roles that they play are so dramatically different.

Lou Williams is asked to knife in and create against 5 engaged defenders. Whereas, 57% of Shake's shot attempts were assisted threes. So of course the guy with the much harder role is going to score less efficiently. Using Lou Williams like you would use Shake Milton would a complete waste of his talents, though.

Lou probably shouldn't be asked to fill that role either though, at least in the playoffs. He has a career sub .500 TS% over 71 playoff games. He was a central reason why they blew that Nuggets series, was almost unplayable. It's been a pretty consistent thing going back to when he was with us.

He just hasn't been the same guy in that setting historically, and building a team around the assumption that Lou is going to carry an offense for stretches of playoff games seems like a mistake. It's not even a given that Lou call fill Shake's role, he really struggled doing that sort of thing when he was in Houston.

So I agree with you that Shake shouldn't be asked to fill Lou's role but really neither should Lou.
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Re: Sixers Lineups Thread 

Post#146 » by Kolkmania » Tue Dec 1, 2020 3:53 pm

Kobblehead wrote:
Kolkmania wrote:Green is a very good standstill shooter which is really useful for us and absolutely a positive for our spacing. However Curry shoots the same amount of 3's per 100 pp, but hits 4 percentage points more on average and with higher % unassisted shots.

Green is really good, Curry is elite. I do think they're in a separate class from a shooting perspective. Definition of "knock down shooter" is a bit subjective.

With the lack of perimeter creation in our roster, we need someone who can create scoring opportunities. Curry can do that, Green cannot. Therefore I think that Curry is absolutely vital for us and will be part of our best unit. Unless Maxey can offer perimeter creation, but that's unlikely since he's a young rookie.


While getting abused mercilessly on the defensive end. Especially in a playoff series. Just because Seth sidesteps an aggressive closeout and generates a fake unassisted shot doesn't mean he can create off the dribble. We need guys that can create off the dribble or guys that can defend. Fielding a bunch of shooting-reliant players that couldn't defend or dribble was the reason we got swept in the playoffs last year. Seth is another shooting specialist that can't defend or dribble.


People I rate highly, think that he's a willing defender, quite smart and gets into the passing lanes for steals. No doubt that he will be targeted in one-on-one defense, but Thybulle also gets regularly beaten off the dribble, let alone Reed. Team defense matters as well, and it sounds like Curry is capable of that, but as I said before I haven't watched enough to judge Curry. Perhaps you have.

I am not saying that Seth Curry is Damian Lillard, but he does shoot threes when dribbling around a pick and it does matter that he can shoot threes off balance. We saw what Redick does to an offense, even if he's not the focal point it makes life easier.
Curry does it in a different way and likely to a different extent, but the difference between him and Green/Korkmaz/Thybulle is significant imo.
Without the traditional ball handling from a PG in half court, we need every bit of gravity/attention from the opponent we need. Curry provides that.

Reason that we got swept is that we didn't have Simmons, lacked a perimeter defender that could defend Tatum (once again, we missed Simmons) and we had zero half court offense which resulted in poor defensive efficiency.

I personally don't believe in All-Defense units with horrible offense because it puts enormous pressure on your transition defense and it tends to demoralize the players and their abilities to defend.
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Re: Sixers Lineups Thread 

Post#147 » by Sportfan73 » Tue Dec 1, 2020 4:12 pm

Kobblehead wrote:
Kolkmania wrote:Green is a very good standstill shooter which is really useful for us and absolutely a positive for our spacing. However Curry shoots the same amount of 3's per 100 pp, but hits 4 percentage points more on average and with higher % unassisted shots.

Green is really good, Curry is elite. I do think they're in a separate class from a shooting perspective. Definition of "knock down shooter" is a bit subjective.

With the lack of perimeter creation in our roster, we need someone who can create scoring opportunities. Curry can do that, Green cannot. Therefore I think that Curry is absolutely vital for us and will be part of our best unit. Unless Maxey can offer perimeter creation, but that's unlikely since he's a young rookie.


While getting abused mercilessly on the defensive end. Especially in a playoff series. Just because Seth sidesteps an aggressive closeout and generates a fake unassisted shot doesn't mean he can create off the dribble. We need guys that can create off the dribble or guys that can defend. Fielding a bunch of shooting-reliant players that couldn't defend or dribble was the reason we got swept in the playoffs last year. Seth is another shooting specialist that can't defend or dribble.

Our second (maybe first best when you just go off of actual affect on winning games) best player being out is why we got swept.
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Re: Sixers Lineups Thread 

Post#148 » by cool93 » Tue Dec 1, 2020 4:15 pm

Sportfan73 wrote:
Kobblehead wrote:
Kolkmania wrote:Green is a very good standstill shooter which is really useful for us and absolutely a positive for our spacing. However Curry shoots the same amount of 3's per 100 pp, but hits 4 percentage points more on average and with higher % unassisted shots.

Green is really good, Curry is elite. I do think they're in a separate class from a shooting perspective. Definition of "knock down shooter" is a bit subjective.

With the lack of perimeter creation in our roster, we need someone who can create scoring opportunities. Curry can do that, Green cannot. Therefore I think that Curry is absolutely vital for us and will be part of our best unit. Unless Maxey can offer perimeter creation, but that's unlikely since he's a young rookie.


While getting abused mercilessly on the defensive end. Especially in a playoff series. Just because Seth sidesteps an aggressive closeout and generates a fake unassisted shot doesn't mean he can create off the dribble. We need guys that can create off the dribble or guys that can defend. Fielding a bunch of shooting-reliant players that couldn't defend or dribble was the reason we got swept in the playoffs last year. Seth is another shooting specialist that can't defend or dribble.

Our second (maybe first best when you just go off of actual affect on winning games) best player being out is why we got swept.
Where did we finish in RS with him? That team was trash, maybe we would take 1-2 games from Celtics with Ben. Thats it.

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Re: Sixers Lineups Thread 

Post#149 » by Kobblehead » Tue Dec 1, 2020 6:12 pm

Kolkmania wrote:People I rate highly, think that he's a willing defender, quite smart and gets into the passing lanes for steals.

Maybe that's wishful thinking/forced optimism from those people. If any of that were true, why wouldn't Dallas just keep him, given his contract? Josh Richardson sucks and the 2nd rounder should theoretically be less valuable than Curry. It's not like we blew them away with an offer they can't refuse.

What steals, though? Curry's deflection stats are non-existent. He's coming off back-to-back seasons of 1.2% steal percentage. He's not playing passing lanes and generating turnovers. He's just getting abused.
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Re: Sixers Lineups Thread 

Post#150 » by Kobblehead » Tue Dec 1, 2020 6:20 pm

Sixerscan wrote:Lou probably shouldn't be asked to fill that role either though, at least in the playoffs. He has a career sub .500 TS% over 71 playoff games. He was a central reason why they blew that Nuggets series, was almost unplayable. It's been a pretty consistent thing going back to when he was with us.

He just hasn't been the same guy in that setting historically, and building a team around the assumption that Lou is going to carry an offense for stretches of playoff games seems like a mistake. It's not even a given that Lou call fill Shake's role, he really struggled doing that sort of thing when he was in Houston.

So I agree with you that Shake shouldn't be asked to fill Lou's role but really neither should Lou.

I still gotta value skillset over efficiency. We saw first-hand in 2018 that a 60% true shooting catch and shoot player (Redick) doesn't tip the needle whatsoever and an inefficient shotcreater can change the series in an instant (Rozier).
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Re: Sixers Lineups Thread 

Post#151 » by Wilfried » Tue Dec 1, 2020 6:37 pm

To be fair: If you have a team with Simmons, Embiid, Tobias and others and your season depends on a match-up between Seth Curry and (for exapmle) Rozier, you're doing something terribly wrong imo.

Cleveland won a title with Irving and Love, they can easily be abused on D too.
It's not that every player on your team must have an advantage on D on the opponent. Your stars need to carry you so far, that the one little disadvantage you have isn't abused big time.
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Re: Sixers Lineups Thread 

Post#152 » by Sportfan73 » Tue Dec 1, 2020 7:43 pm

cool93 wrote:
Sportfan73 wrote:
Kobblehead wrote:
While getting abused mercilessly on the defensive end. Especially in a playoff series. Just because Seth sidesteps an aggressive closeout and generates a fake unassisted shot doesn't mean he can create off the dribble. We need guys that can create off the dribble or guys that can defend. Fielding a bunch of shooting-reliant players that couldn't defend or dribble was the reason we got swept in the playoffs last year. Seth is another shooting specialist that can't defend or dribble.

Our second (maybe first best when you just go off of actual affect on winning games) best player being out is why we got swept.
Where did we finish in RS with him? That team was trash, maybe we would take 1-2 games from Celtics with Ben. Thats it.

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Lol we were a game out of fourth with a team that the starters played like 15 games together healthy, take your negative BS outlook somehwere else. Get ready for a top 3 seed minimum
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Re: Sixers Lineups Thread 

Post#153 » by youngcrev » Tue Dec 1, 2020 7:45 pm

Kobblehead wrote:
Sixerscan wrote:Lou probably shouldn't be asked to fill that role either though, at least in the playoffs. He has a career sub .500 TS% over 71 playoff games. He was a central reason why they blew that Nuggets series, was almost unplayable. It's been a pretty consistent thing going back to when he was with us.

He just hasn't been the same guy in that setting historically, and building a team around the assumption that Lou is going to carry an offense for stretches of playoff games seems like a mistake. It's not even a given that Lou call fill Shake's role, he really struggled doing that sort of thing when he was in Houston.

So I agree with you that Shake shouldn't be asked to fill Lou's role but really neither should Lou.

I still gotta value skillset over efficiency. We saw first-hand in 2018 that a 60% true shooting catch and shoot player (Redick) doesn't tip the needle whatsoever and an inefficient shotcreater can change the series in an instant (Rozier).


But what made Rozier effective in that series was that he wasn't inefficient. Sometimes random dudes get hot. The Scary Terry ride crashed and burned in the next series against the Cavs.
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Re: Sixers Lineups Thread 

Post#154 » by eyeatoma » Tue Dec 1, 2020 9:03 pm

Kobblehead wrote:
eyeatoma wrote:No one else is a knock down shooter.

Not singling you out because I've seen this sentiment posted at least 10+ times in the last couple of weeks.

Are people not aware of what Danny Green does? He's a career 40% three point shooter with 1283 career makes beyond the arc.


I trust Curry more than Green. Green is on the decline as a shooter and as a defender, but we'll see you could be right. He's the streakiest 40% shooter in the NBA. It's like he used all of his shooting ability for the first 6 years of his career. He averaged 38.9% beyond the arc the first 6 years of his career. Since 2015? 37.2. It doesn't seem that low, but if you take out the Toronto season where he averaged 45.5%, it's 36.2. That's below league average. That one 45.5% year with Toronto spike his average for his career to a perfect 40%. He doesn't shoot massive volume either. He makes 1.9 3pg.

I just trust Curry way more. HIs volume is 1.7, but he hasn't played as much. He shot 2.3 3s a game last year, and 2 in 2016. Career 3p% is 44.3. It's not even close to be honest as far as how much more lethal Curry is beyond the arc compared to Green. I see Curry's volume increasing, to about 3-3.5 3pg this season.
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Re: Sixers Lineups Thread 

Post#155 » by elchengue20 » Tue Dec 1, 2020 10:09 pm

Curry is better as a shooter and also can create his own shot a little.Green is very streaky, even when he's hot, he's not as good. And that ain't happening very often nowadays.

Green is phyisically declining and fast. Just look him move around the court. It's getting very hard for him to keep the pace at this level.And it has consequences not only in his defense, also in his shooting. Plus,it's also affecting his shooting confidence.

I hope he can hold up for one more year while also gaining some of his shooting confidence back. But i wouldnt be schoked if in this season he's even worse than in the last one.
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Re: Sixers Lineups Thread 

Post#156 » by 51X3RF4N » Wed Dec 2, 2020 12:13 am

I've actually been thinking about a lineup with Ben at the SF spot.

Maxey
Milton
Simmons
Harris
Embiid

Maxey as a scorer, Milton as a knock down shooter. Simmons is going to defend the bigger wings anyways and his role on offense can still be primary creator with Maxey running off screens.

Milton and Harris are catch and shoot threats when Embiid posts.

Bench would be:

Curry
Green
Thybulle
Korkmaz
Howard

With deep bench Joe, Ferguson, Anderson, Reed and Bradley.

I still think a consolidation type trade for a PG prospect would be nice. Or maybe that is Walton, Jr?

Mike Scott might come back with a more consistent shot and with better coaching, but I'm not confident in that. Although he is a good fit with Howard/Thybulle.

But Scott/Ferguson for a 3rd PG or upgraded backup stretch 4 would be a good place to start. Its really hard to imagine Korkmaz with a big role as a 9th man who would have to play PF to see the floor...

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Re: Sixers Lineups Thread 

Post#157 » by Kobblehead » Wed Dec 2, 2020 1:18 am

51X3RF4N wrote:can still be primary creator with Maxey running off screens.

Man, I really don't want to see this, though.

Maxey will have a jumper in due time, but he doesn't possess natural range, at this point. The last thing we need to do for his development is to have him running around screens off the ball like Seth Curry. Maxey should be the primary ball handler whenever he's on the court. He's the only player on our roster that can create off the dribble. Simmons needs to be setting screens for Maxey.
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Re: Sixers Lineups Thread 

Post#158 » by Kolkmania » Wed Dec 2, 2020 12:59 pm

Kobblehead wrote:
Kolkmania wrote:People I rate highly, think that he's a willing defender, quite smart and gets into the passing lanes for steals.

Maybe that's wishful thinking/forced optimism from those people. If any of that were true, why wouldn't Dallas just keep him, given his contract? Josh Richardson sucks and the 2nd rounder should theoretically be less valuable than Curry. It's not like we blew them away with an offer they can't refuse.

What steals, though? Curry's deflection stats are non-existent. He's coming off back-to-back seasons of 1.2% steal percentage. He's not playing passing lanes and generating turnovers. He's just getting abused.


Those were national analysts, so no reason for wishful thinking. The reason that Dallas was willing to part with Seth Curry is that Dallas drastically needs a point of attack defender.
Finding one who can hit an occasional shot and do some secondary/tertiary playmaking is hard to find and those players are valuable because everybody needs these kind of players. Therefore they have to give up a valuable asset.

A career 1.5% steal rate is certainly not abysmal, but as I said, I haven't watched him close enough.
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Re: Sixers Lineups Thread 

Post#159 » by 51X3RF4N » Wed Dec 2, 2020 8:17 pm

Interesting to see Doc commenting about Shake being a playmaker off the bench, and Furkan being a big part this season.

Makes me think the starters are definitely Green/Curry.

Based on those comments, the depth chart seems like:

PG- Curry/Milton/Maxey
SG- Green/Thybulle/Joe
SF- Simmons/Korkmaz/Anderson
PF- Harris/Scott/Reed
C- Embiid/Howard/Bradley

With Ferguson, Broekhoff, Walton and Mathias on the outside looking in.

I have to imagine Ferguson is on his way out in another deal already but they just can't announce it until the Horford trade is finalized, and then another waiting period before he can technically be traded, right?

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Re: Sixers Lineups Thread 

Post#160 » by LloydFree » Wed Dec 2, 2020 8:25 pm

51X3RF4N wrote:Interesting to see Doc commenting about Shake being a playmaker off the bench, and Furkan being a big part this season.

Makes me think the starters are definitely Green/Curry.

Based on those comments, the depth chart seems like:

PG- Curry/Milton/Maxey
SG- Green/Thybulle/Joe
SF- Simmons/Korkmaz/Anderson
PF- Harris/Scott/Reed
C- Embiid/Howard/Bradley

With Ferguson, Broekhoff, Walton and Mathias on the outside looking in.

I have to imagine Ferguson is on his way out in another deal already but they just can't announce it until the Horford trade is finalized, and then another waiting period before he can technically be traded, right?

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They can't talk about Ferguson for the same reason they can't talk about Danny Green. Ferguson has 4 million guaranteed coming. If he's in the deal, he isn't on the outside looking in. The players with no guarantees are on the outside looking in.
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