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Joel Embiid

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Re: Joel Embiid 

Post#161 » by Kobblehead » Thu May 14, 2020 1:51 pm

76ciology wrote:I was following the Magic a lot at that time. Because i have a brother who is a big magic fan and is also a long time realgmer. (This explains if he has same IP address with me, mods)

What you are saying is true. But Magic folded as soon as Dwight isnt as effective as he was during the Raps and Hawks series where both teams basically have no ideas to stop him.

Let’s just say that at one point i think the gameplan Hawks had was to just defend D12 on single coverage and live with the result. D12 can’t just score the entire game alone.

D12 made everything clicked. Whether it’s the two man game with him and Jameer or Turkoglu. Or how Lewis (pre-steroids) found his perfect role as the stretch 4 for D12.

After D12 was neutralized and Lakers was reigning supreme, they realized that D12 won’t be valued as a “queen” but more as a “rook” only against the Lakers. So they searched for that closer in Vince Carter and Gilbert Arenas.

Then they just collapsed on and off the court.

If you ask me, Dwight was just at the right place and at the right time. He reigned in the east when he faced the Bargnanis, Varejaos and Al horfords in the east. But if you look at his numbers, he struggles generally against western conference teams for these teams have the right guys to slow him down.


Well, yeah, Dwight wasn't that great of an offensive player. Most of his buckets occurred on 2nd chance points off of offensive rebounds, screen and roll, and occasionally in the post. His post game was severely underdeveloped compared to the bigs we're talking about.

And he never had a worthy co-star.
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Re: Joel Embiid 

Post#162 » by Kobblehead » Thu May 14, 2020 2:01 pm

76ciology wrote:You need someone to help your alpha get easy buckets?


That's every bigman ever, though. Post players are inherently dependent players. Most of these guys are assisted on well over 60% of their buckets. Bigman don't create, ball handlers do. Embiid actually creates way more than most of those guys, too.

He still needs an equivalent to Jimmy Butler if he's ever going to win. But so did Shaq and most other bigs than won a title.
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Re: Joel Embiid 

Post#163 » by youngcrev » Thu May 14, 2020 2:16 pm

Jameer going down late in the season kinda undercut the Magic championship odds in '09 when they had everything clicking. It was kinda like when Ratliff went down in 01. I still don't think they were beating that Laker team with a healthy Jameer, but they at least would have had a shot, and would have had a much easier path to get to that point. Hell, they struggled against the Sixers in the first round. Andre Miller was putting in work on Skip, and I remember how excited everyone was about our chances when Dwight got suspended for game 6. Of course, they came in and trounced us that game with The Polish Hammer stepping in and some hot shooting.
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Re: Joel Embiid 

Post#164 » by Kobblehead » Thu May 14, 2020 2:43 pm

I do think the Magic were screwed no matter what because they had nobody on the wing that could check Kobe, defensively. Remember when Mickael Pietrus was a thing lol?
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Re: Joel Embiid 

Post#165 » by 76ciology » Thu May 14, 2020 4:43 pm

Kobblehead wrote:I do think the Magic were screwed no matter what because they had nobody on the wing that could check Kobe, defensively. Remember when Mickael Pietrus was a thing lol?


That was one of the reason.

But the major one was how D12 was neutralized. It’s similar when Magic fall short against the Rockets when Hakeem neutralized Shaq.
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Re: Joel Embiid 

Post#166 » by Kobblehead » Thu May 14, 2020 5:21 pm

Nah, I think those are just examples of teams with more good players beating teams with less good players.

Dwight didn't even have a second guy to bring to the dance against Kobe/Gasol. He had no shot to win that Finals.

Look at the supporting cast discepency in the 1995 FInals. Shaq/Penny battled Hakeem/Clyde to a draw and then Horry, Ellie, and Cassell thoroughly bombed on Horace Grant, Brian Shaw, and Nick Anderson. The Rockets were able to match the fire power of Shaq/Penny with their own hall of fame duo and then had a much deeper roster of supporting players.
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Re: Joel Embiid 

Post#167 » by 76ciology » Thu May 14, 2020 5:25 pm

Anyway thats just my point of view on how to solve our problem in the playoffs, which is sliding Embiid to PF and so as the rest of the roster with Horford at C. We’ll see once the playoff starts if the results will change. That’s the only way to see if this will work or not.
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Re: Joel Embiid 

Post#168 » by Kobblehead » Thu May 14, 2020 6:18 pm

You're not going to be able to dictate who the other team defends Embiid with just by giving him a madeup PF designation.

Besides, the only way for us to take the next step is if we acquire a two-way player that can score in the halfcourt or if Ben Simmons becomes that guy.
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Re: Joel Embiid 

Post#169 » by youngcrev » Thu May 14, 2020 11:26 pm

Kobblehead wrote:Nah, I think those are just examples of teams with more good players beating teams with less good players.

Dwight didn't even have a second guy to bring to the dance against Kobe/Gasol. He had no shot to win that Finals.

Look at the supporting cast discepency in the 1995 FInals. Shaq/Penny battled Hakeem/Clyde to a draw and then Horry, Ellie, and Cassell thoroughly bombed on Horace Grant, Brian Shaw, and Nick Anderson. The Rockets were able to match the fire power of Shaq/Penny with their own hall of fame duo and then had a much deeper roster of supporting players.


Yeah, not really sure when this myth of Hakeem dominating Shaq in that series started. Seems like a general board GOAT list propaganda.

I think that's a completely different series if Nick Anderson doesn't **** the bed at the end of game 1.
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Re: Joel Embiid 

Post#170 » by 76ciology » Fri May 15, 2020 6:15 am

Kobblehead wrote:You're not going to be able to dictate who the other team defends Embiid with just by giving him a madeup PF designation.

Besides, the only way for us to take the next step is if we acquire a two-way player that can score in the halfcourt or if Ben Simmons becomes that guy.


I spent last night watching all embiid actions with Al on the court against the Raps and Bucks, its really rare that Embiid gets switched to a PF. So my idea has a long way to go anyway.

Two way player that can score? Like Ben since january 2020 where he’s scoring like 20 and playing defense on the other end? Ben is so limited off the ball that you have to explore trading him if you have a Kawhi or a young jimmy butler.

We’re working on how to make the biid and ben work right now. Like sliding them all down a position with Al and surrounding them with probably the most talented and most expensive supporting cast in the league right now. And if that isnt going to work, then I can see us simplifying it by trading one of Ben and Biid. Sort of how Blazers transitioned from the oden era to the cj-dame era.

Right now, I’m all for Ben becoming an alpha type player for our team if Biid can’t slide to PF. This way we can have a match-up nightmare for almost all nights that we can go to whenever Biid gets slowed down by the bigs in the category of Baynes and Gasol.
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Re: Joel Embiid 

Post#171 » by Kobblehead » Fri May 15, 2020 1:24 pm

Simmons for De'Aaron Fox or Donovan Mitchell makes a lot of sense but can't happen until those guys get extended.

Until then, I guess just keep trying to break through the wall with Simmons/Embiid and better defensive players on the floor at all times (Thybulle/Covington) types.

Missing out on Shai really sucks. He would have sealed a championship within the next three years.
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Re: Joel Embiid 

Post#172 » by youngcrev » Fri May 15, 2020 2:36 pm

I don't think it's that hard to build a team around Simmons and Embiid. You've got a big that can anchor a defense and be your #1/1A option as a scorer. You've got a point-forward that can defend every position on the floor at a high level and set tempo. Just fill in the blanks. You've got a major hole in terms of a guy that can get his both as an off ball shooter and off the bounce (Bradley Beal archetype, which is where the majority of their resources should have been spent because its clearly the hardest piece to fill between them). And then you need high level, playoff capable shooters. Those 2 can't shoot, so everyone else has to.

Tobias, Josh and Horford are all pretty solid pieces to have around them in general. Horford is a great backup center that compliments the Ben lineups perfectly, and is a solid matchup chess piece for a playoff series. Harris has a reasonably good combination of on and off ball scoring. Richardson can do a bit of everything.

The problem is when you allocate all of your resources to those guys without even attempting to address playmaking hole. It seems like they just thought their defense would be so smothering that a clunky, attacking size matchups offense could carry them. Maybe it would play out that way in a playoff series, but I'm pretty sure we all have our doubts on that one. I just don't see a way for them to consistently create good enough offense in the half court. Post play is easy enough to double as it is, but especially so when your spacing sucks.
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Re: Joel Embiid 

Post#173 » by Kobblehead » Fri May 15, 2020 4:20 pm

I kind of hope they don't put that much of an emphasis on shooting. And I really hope they don't view an on/off shooter as their cherry that tops the sundae. That's how we'll end up with Buddy Hield or Eric Gordon trade.

Just get non-exploitable defenders that are capable of shooting low-30s at worst (hoping for mid-30s). Keep chipping away at that wall that way. If Embiid/Simmons can't deliver, they just can't deliver. Either way, we'll gain some clarity on how to proceed going forward.
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Re: Joel Embiid 

Post#174 » by ProcessDoctor » Fri May 15, 2020 4:39 pm

Edit: Moved to fantasy trade thread.
2019-2020 Philadelphia 76ers:

Simmons/Milton/Neto
Richardson/Korkmaz/Smith
Robinson/Burks/Thybulle
Harris/Scott
Embiid/Horford/Pelle/O’Quinn
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Re: Joel Embiid 

Post#175 » by youngcrev » Fri May 15, 2020 5:26 pm

Kobblehead wrote:I kind of hope they don't put that much of an emphasis on shooting. And I really hope they don't view an on/off shooter as their cherry that tops the sundae. That's how we'll end up with Buddy Hield or Eric Gordon trade.

Just get non-exploitable defenders that are capable of shooting low-30s at worst (hoping for mid-30s). Keep chipping away at that wall that way. If Embiid/Simmons can't deliver, they just can't deliver. Either way, we'll gain some clarity on how to proceed going forward.


That's basically what they have, and it's not good enough offensively.

I'm talking a playmaker that can also shoot. Eric Gordon was kinda that in his prime. Hield is mainly a shooter (though I do think you can work some quality 2 man games with him, leaning more on Ben and Jo as the creator in a DHO action).
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Re: Joel Embiid 

Post#176 » by Kobblehead » Fri May 15, 2020 5:42 pm

We've never really fielded a non-exploitable defensive lineup during our playoff runs.

When we lost to Boston, we had too much Saric/Redick/Belinelli/Ilyasova.

When we lost to Toronto, we had too much Redick/Harris/Scott/Korkmaz.

I want to see the organization surround Embiid/Simmons with 6 good defenders and see what happens.

If Embiid/Simmons can't deliver on their own abilities, then we break it up and trade one or both of them.
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Re: Joel Embiid 

Post#177 » by Kobblehead » Fri May 15, 2020 5:44 pm

If Embiid/Simmons are worth their salt, they won't be so dependent on a third piece to come in and get the job done.
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Re: Joel Embiid 

Post#178 » by youngcrev » Fri May 15, 2020 5:54 pm

Kobblehead wrote:We've never really fielded a non-exploitable defensive lineup during our playoff runs.

When we lost to Boston, we had too much Saric/Redick/Belinelli/Ilyasova.

When we lost to Toronto, we had too much Redick/Harris/Scott/Korkmaz.

I want to see the organization surround Embiid/Simmons with 6 good defenders and see what happens.

If Embiid/Simmons can't deliver on their own abilities, then we break it up and trade one or both of them.


I mean their current team. They've got the most defensive talent in the league already.

I think their starting lineup last year was a pretty ideal set up around Simmons and Embiid. Obviously the pieces weren't perfect, but it was an extremely balanced mix of skill sets. Give me that team with a capable backup center and Thybulle to go offense/defense with JJ and I think you'd have an extremely formidable squad.
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Re: Joel Embiid 

Post#179 » by Kobblehead » Sat May 16, 2020 1:09 am

Even though we're the 6th ranked regular season defense, I think our defense will kinda suck in a playoff setting. More exploitable defenders than ever before.

Harris/Korkmaz/Burks/Scott/Milton/Robinson

We cannot field a good 8 man rotation, at all.
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Re: Joel Embiid 

Post#180 » by Sixerscan » Sat May 16, 2020 1:36 am

Harris was good on defense this year. One of the bright spots in terms of year over year improvements. 2 of those other guys will play like 25-30 minutes combined and they're fine in terms of being the worst defensive player on the court especially given the other 4 guys they'll be out there with and how this team stopped switching so much.

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