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Negrodamus wrote:

76ciology wrote:

Negrodamus wrote:https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2891395-a-man-for-all-seasons?fbclid=IwAR3Ne3-IB6pbZXEDUzC0LlnwMz9UQqKtNU_K4e0yk_8SIEvYz7m86s6lCH8



Lol, I like the MJ documentary, but now everyone is obsessed with how he'd fare today.

On a related note, i think he will still be very good. Like a smaller version of Kawhi at the SG position.

But he won’t be as good as he was with the level of talent we have in the league right now.

But he’s still the GOAT to me because of his accolades and what he has accomplished. Greatness has a lot of luck/results involved, because if it’s not then GOAT should be Wilt.

I think he'd obliterate the league, statistically speaking. If he focused on a three point game, he'd score a ton more points. Mix in how easy cheap fouls are drawn these days and it would be an even worse version of Harden-ball. But, as per usual in the NBA across history, it would depend on how the team was constructed around him.

The fouls are because defenders have to respect 3pt shooters. But if you are a defender with 2-3” taller than him and have a 7’ wingspan, and you are defending an average 3pt shooter who is shorter than you, you can likely sag off to minimize your chance in getting called for a foul. A guy like Ben can easily sag off MJ and we can live with MJ trying to score against Ben’s outstreched arms.

We dont know how good he’ll be if he attempted more 3s but for the discussion let’s just call an apple an apple.

The league has certainly improved its talent and it’s quality. The teams and the defenders he’ll be facing will be a lot tougher. I mean.. that Bulls squad never faced a 73 win team and a 73 win team with KD team and etc.

It was truly a weak era when he was dominating the league. And im not taking away anything from MJ. He deserve what he has accomplished. He is the GOAT for me.

On a related note (another related note) LeBron has to be one of the unluckiest players in league history. To start, being drafted and obligated to win at Cleveland and having to face the Celts Big 3, OKC’s 3 future superstars, Dirk going HAM and that insane Warriors squad.

....THEN COVID19. LMAO.

Style of play is the biggest difference. 10x more physical, players self enforced/dirty play during Jordan’s era. He would probably average 45 ppg in today’s game with the way the game is played/officiated.

3pt game - why would the hardest worker in the league not develop a 3? He would be around 40%.

Size - he would have all the same advanced nutrition and strength training that every other player does today...difference would be negligible.

In today game, MJ is still be the best player. Team success would be interesting as FA and self grouping didn’t exist back then. The Bulls front office was great in assembling the right players around him, so you have to give the benefit of the doubt they would be successful in FA.

freshie2 wrote:Style of play is the biggest difference. 10x more physical, players self enforced/dirty play during Jordan’s era. He would probably average 45 ppg in today’s game with the way the game is played/officiated.

3pt game - why would the hardest worker in the league not develop a 3? He would be around 40%.

Size - he would have all the same advanced nutrition and strength training that every other player does today...difference would be negligible.

In today game, MJ is still be the best player. Team success would be interesting as FA and self grouping didn’t exist back then. The Bulls front office was great in assembling the right players around him, so you have to give the benefit of the doubt they would be successful in FA.

Yea, I'm not sure why an 80+ FT% shooter with a very sound form would not be able to be at least a decent three point shooter. He would be an absolute force in today's game, especially with everyone spread out of the paint.

[youtube][/youtube]

freshie2 wrote:Style of play is the biggest difference. 10x more physical, players self enforced/dirty play during Jordan’s era. He would probably average 45 ppg in today’s game with the way the game is played/officiated.

3pt game - why would the hardest worker in the league not develop a 3? He would be around 40%.

Size - he would have all the same advanced nutrition and strength training that every other player does today...difference would be negligible.

In today game, MJ is still be the best player. Team success would be interesting as FA and self grouping didn’t exist back then. The Bulls front office was great in assembling the right players around him, so you have to give the benefit of the doubt they would be successful in FA.

We will never know. But discussing about facts and just a spade for a spade.

But he never faced guys who have the tools of today’s defenders.

I mean he has high praise on Jon Starks defense, but starks is only 6’3 and 190lbs.

He didn’t have high regards on Payton’s defense, but when Karl put Payton on him on games 4 to 6 in their finals, he pretty much locked him down.

First three games: 31 points, 46 fg%, 50 3fg%, 12.3 FTA.

Last three games: 23.7 points, 36.7 fg%, 11.1 3fg% 10 FTA. <= payton defended him at that point.

Jordan never faced guys who are as big as luc longley but has the skillset and athleticism of pippen like today’s Giannis, Siakam, AD, Kawhi, PG, LeBron, Ben, KD and etc.

Anyone objective knows that it was a weak era in the league. Even Rodman said it himself.

I also feel like the physicality is relative. Like against the Pistons, ok they were physical. But he’s defended by midgets so he can just shoot or jump over them. Its not like he’s being pushed to the floor in every shot.

Then after the pistons, the league was physical but nobody is allowed to touch MJ or it’s a foul.

On a sidenote, this is why building around a big as an alpha works at this point because you can win by being a low scoring, post and defense heavy team.

MJ had an easy route compared to what LeBron went through. But that is fate or destiny. And it plays a big part in being considered GOAT.

Personally, it doesnt matter who’s GOAT to me. I think even LeBron doesnt care, with how flushed with cash these guys are right now.

Great player of all time, based on physical gifts and talent? Maybe Wilt then LeBron.

But Greatest Player of all Time, based on the values we have used in all aspects of history, it’s MJ then maybe Kobe.

76ciology wrote:[youtube][/youtube]

freshie2 wrote:Style of play is the biggest difference. 10x more physical, players self enforced/dirty play during Jordan’s era. He would probably average 45 ppg in today’s game with the way the game is played/officiated.

3pt game - why would the hardest worker in the league not develop a 3? He would be around 40%.

Size - he would have all the same advanced nutrition and strength training that every other player does today...difference would be negligible.

In today game, MJ is still be the best player. Team success would be interesting as FA and self grouping didn’t exist back then. The Bulls front office was great in assembling the right players around him, so you have to give the benefit of the doubt they would be successful in FA.

We will never know. But discussing about facts and just a spade for a spade.

But he never faced guys who have the tools of today’s defenders.

I mean he has high praise on Jon Starks defense, but starks is only 6’3 and 190lbs.

He didn’t have high regards on Payton’s defense, but when Karl put Payton on him on games 4 to 6 in their finals, he pretty much locked him down.

First three games: 31 points, 46 fg%, 50 3fg%, 12.3 FTA.

Last three games: 23.7 points, 36.7 fg%, 11.1 3fg% 10 FTA. <= payton defended him at that point.

Jordan never faced guys who are as big as luc longley but has the skillset and athleticism of pippen like today’s Giannis, Siakam, AD, Kawhi, PG, LeBron, Ben, KD and etc.

Anyone objective knows that it was a weak era in the league. Even Rodman said it himself.

I also feel like the physicality is relative. Like against the Pistons, ok they were physical. But he’s defended by midgets so he can just shoot or jump over them. Its not like he’s being pushed to the floor in every shot.

Then after the pistons, the league was physical but nobody is allowed to touch MJ or it’s a foul.

On a sidenote, this is why building around a big as an alpha works at this point because you can win by being a low scoring, post and defense heavy team.

MJ had an easy route compared to what LeBron went through. But that is fate or destiny. And it plays a big part in being considered GOAT.

Personally, it doesnt matter who’s GOAT to me. I think even LeBron doesnt care, with how flushed with cash these guys are right now.

LeBron definitely cares in my opinion. And this is coming from a LeBron fan. I also agree LeBron's path has been more difficult in terms of talent of the opposition. However, people will always counter that point with how LeBron "hand-picked" his teammates.

freshie2 wrote:Style of play is the biggest difference. 10x more physical, players self enforced/dirty play during Jordan’s era. He would probably average 45 ppg in today’s game with the way the game is played/officiated.

3pt game - why would the hardest worker in the league not develop a 3? He would be around 40%.

Size - he would have all the same advanced nutrition and strength training that every other player does today...difference would be negligible.

In today game, MJ is still be the best player. Team success would be interesting as FA and self grouping didn’t exist back then. The Bulls front office was great in assembling the right players around him, so you have to give the benefit of the doubt they would be successful in FA.

Lots of assumptions


10x more physical - defensively as much as offensively, remember how Jordan shoves off Craig Ehlo to score the last second bucket against the Cavs in 89, that’s an offensive foul in today’s game, plus no one had dared to defend Jordan physically after the Pistons bad boy era.


3pt game - hard work does not always translate to results, let alone shooting 40% from 3.
We still don’t see Simmons shooting a 3 and I heard he worked pretty hard on it.

Size - there are just so many more physically dominant players in this era, there are 6”6 or taller SG in almost every team in today’s NBA. Having all the strength training and advanced nutrients does not make you taller, and if he had gain more mass, he will probably be less agile than he’s supposed to be.

He will still be great in this era, but not GOAT great, probably 2nd to Lebron.


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76ciology wrote:Great player of all time, based on physical gifts and talent? Maybe Wilt then LeBron.

But Greatest Player of all Time, based on the values we have used in all aspects of history, it’s MJ then maybe Kobe.

Kobe?

Loved the guy, but if we’re going by accolades, he wasn’t even the best of his generation (Tim Duncan).

76ciology wrote:On a related note, i think he will still be very good. Like a smaller version of Kawhi at the SG position.

But he won’t be as good as he was with the level of talent we have in the league right now.

But he’s still the GOAT to me because of his accolades and what he has accomplished. Greatness has a lot of luck/results involved, because if it’s not then GOAT should be Wilt.

Disagree heavily. Jordan was ahead of his time playing in a league with a crowded paint and handchecking. Put him in the modern league and I think he'd average 45+ ppg.

Russell Westbrook's tenacity + Kawhi's two-way dominance + Andrew Wiggins athleticism. It would be a wrap for the league.

76ciology wrote:Great player of all time, based on physical gifts and talent? Maybe Wilt then LeBron.

But Greatest Player of all Time, based on the values we have used in all aspects of history, it’s MJ then maybe Kobe.

Nah, I don't think Wilt or LeBron were in the talent discussion. Just the physical gifts discussion.

Kobblehead wrote:

76ciology wrote:On a related note, i think he will still be very good. Like a smaller version of Kawhi at the SG position.

But he won’t be as good as he was with the level of talent we have in the league right now.

But he’s still the GOAT to me because of his accolades and what he has accomplished. Greatness has a lot of luck/results involved, because if it’s not then GOAT should be Wilt.

Disagree heavily. Jordan was ahead of his time playing in a league with a crowded paint and handchecking. Put him in the modern league and I think he'd average 45+ ppg.

Russell Westbrook's tenacity + Kawhi's two-way dominance + Andrew Wiggins athleticism. It would be a wrap for the league.

100% agree. It’s been 23 years since Jordan retired the second time. So memories of how great he was fades with the younger generation of posters on these forums. If you are in your late 30s and older. You know how great Jordan was.

Jordan had a very good low post game. Just deadly. And he was very strong. He would put so much pressure on the defense how to react. Can you imagine Jordan in the low post. Say Klay Thompson would try defend Jordan. Thompson is a very good defender. But not strong enough. So KD can rotate over and try to help. That’s suicide cause Jordan was way too quick and would beat the double team before it can rotate. Or he would find the open guy for a layup.

If you thought Jordan got a lot of fouls called during the 1990s. He’d be going to the free throw line 15 times a game in today’s no touch nba defense. He would average 45 points a game. Plus play elite defense.

kuclas wrote:

Kobblehead wrote:

76ciology wrote:On a related note, i think he will still be very good. Like a smaller version of Kawhi at the SG position.

But he won’t be as good as he was with the level of talent we have in the league right now.

But he’s still the GOAT to me because of his accolades and what he has accomplished. Greatness has a lot of luck/results involved, because if it’s not then GOAT should be Wilt.

Disagree heavily. Jordan was ahead of his time playing in a league with a crowded paint and handchecking. Put him in the modern league and I think he'd average 45+ ppg.

Russell Westbrook's tenacity + Kawhi's two-way dominance + Andrew Wiggins athleticism. It would be a wrap for the league.

100% agree. It’s been 23 years since Jordan retired the second time. So memories of how great he was fades with the younger generation of posters on these forums. If you are in your late 30s and older. You know how great Jordan was.

Jordan had a very good low post game. Just deadly. And he was very strong. He would put so much pressure on the defense how to react. Can you imagine Jordan in the low post. Say Klay Thompson would try defend Jordan. Thompson is a very good defender. But not strong enough. So KD can rotate over and try to help. That’s suicide cause Jordan was way too quick and would beat the double team before it can rotate. Or he would find the open guy for a layup.

If you thought Jordan got a lot of fouls called during the 1990s. He’d be going to the free throw line 15 times a game in today’s no touch nba defense. He would average 45 points a game. Plus play elite defense.

SF will be on MJ and SG will be on Pippen like how Jazz did it. I find that wings got longer nowadays.

So like if Mj faced the clippers, George will be on Pippen then Kawhi will be on MJ. I dont think Mj ever faced anyone as long and as good as Kawhi.

Against the Sixers, Tobias will be on Pippen then Ben Simmons will be on MJ.

I think the coach is smart enough, you can even make a gameplan with Giannis on MJ then Middleton on Pippen or Rodman.

And against the Warriors. I think KD will make MJ have a tough time shooting over. While Rodman and Longley clogging the paint means centers and pfs like draymond or boguf can camp in the paint.

Nothing wrong with handpicking your teammates.

He was playing in a very talented and competitive era (big 3/superteam era), he has to adapt in order to survive.

It’s pretty much what KG told him after KG’s big 3 beat his Cavs team.

Bulls winning like almost 60 games without MJ tells you how weak that era was.

But again... nobody cares. What’s important is the RESULT. That is why MJ is the greatest.

Who cares if you have the most talented team in the league if you dont win the championship?

Does the 2019 Raps championship count when they were lucky to have faced a handicapped Warriors team? How about the times teams won championship on a lockout season?

RESULT

76ciology wrote:

kuclas wrote:

Kobblehead wrote:
Disagree heavily. Jordan was ahead of his time playing in a league with a crowded paint and handchecking. Put him in the modern league and I think he'd average 45+ ppg.

Russell Westbrook's tenacity + Kawhi's two-way dominance + Andrew Wiggins athleticism. It would be a wrap for the league.

100% agree. It’s been 23 years since Jordan retired the second time. So memories of how great he was fades with the younger generation of posters on these forums. If you are in your late 30s and older. You know how great Jordan was.

Jordan had a very good low post game. Just deadly. And he was very strong. He would put so much pressure on the defense how to react. Can you imagine Jordan in the low post. Say Klay Thompson would try defend Jordan. Thompson is a very good defender. But not strong enough. So KD can rotate over and try to help. That’s suicide cause Jordan was way too quick and would beat the double team before it can rotate. Or he would find the open guy for a layup.

If you thought Jordan got a lot of fouls called during the 1990s. He’d be going to the free throw line 15 times a game in today’s no touch nba defense. He would average 45 points a game. Plus play elite defense.

SF will be on MJ and SG will be on Pippen like how Jazz did it. I find that wings got longer nowadays.

So like if Mj faced the clippers, George will be on Pippen then Kawhi will be on MJ. I dont think Mj ever faced anyone as long and as good as Kawhi.

Against the Sixers, Tobias will be on Pippen then Ben Simmons will be on MJ.

I think the coach is smart enough, you can even make a gameplan with Giannis on MJ then Middleton on Pippen or Rodman.

And against the Warriors. I think KD will make MJ have a tough time shooting over. While Rodman and Longley clogging the paint means centers and pfs like draymond or boguf can camp in the paint.

Well if you're putting Jordan in the modern era it seems fair to give him modern teammates and lineups? Like in the 90s they needed Longley and Cartwright because you had huge teams like the Pistons, Knicks and Pacers but you could easily see them getting a more modern center if they were playing now.

Anyway that Bulls team had plenty of modern lineups they could and did play with Kukoc and Kerr. They were basically the first team that ever won without a dominant front court and are a blueprint for how a lot of modern teams are built.

MJ may have never played against guys like Kawhi and Durant (in part because the guy most like Kawhi defensively was on his team) but they've also never played against anyone like MJ.

If MJ literally just decided to average 40 a night he could probably do it, I'm guessing Harden or Durant could probably get close too. Harden was at 36+ just last year. That's not winning basketball though so I doubt MJ would especially with a good team around him. 45 just seems like it would take too many shots. You'd need to get back to like 1960s level pace.

I mean, there's stories of MJ completely trashing Pippen in practice. Do we really think these modern, lengthy players are going to give him that much trouble? Great offense tends to beat great defense. We've seen Kobe and Wade go up against a lot of these same guys.

Not to mention, he could always just do the LeBron thing and try to force switches and attack the worst defender on the floor.

These projected "he'd score -- a game in this era" statements are pretty much always blown out of proportion, but he ain't struggling against these guys either.

If we're going with the argument that Jordan played against weaker competition, at least give the era the credit of having the most talented rim protectors, as a whole, probably of all time. During Jordan's time, you had Shaq, Ewing, Robinson, Olajuwon, Eaton, both Malones, Laimbeer, Rodman (Detroit), Mutombo, etc, etc. Jordan did most of his work inside the arc and still was the most prolific scorer ever.

Now put him in this era where the top shot blockers are: Whiteside, Brook Lopez, Anthony Davis, Miles Turner, and Porzingis. I'm sorry, but those guys (aside from Davis) don't instill the same defensive fear that the aforementioned defensive stalwarts do. Jordan would feast on the game today.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/michael-jordan-faced-better-competition-than-lebron-james/

Lots of good discussions there about how MJ had tougher competition than LeBron.

ProcessDoctor wrote:https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/michael-jordan-faced-better-competition-than-lebron-james/

Lots of good discussions there about how MJ had tougher competition than LeBron.

Interesting, Jordan had a sweet spot during the 90s of facing a lot of very good but not elite championship quality teams. Whereas Lebron basically alternated between facing decent East teams and then the West juggernaut in the finals. I'd take the 4 Warriors teams and the '13 and '14 Spurs teams over anyone Jordan faced (just talking 90s), and that '12 Thunder team probably had as much talent as anyone but was too young.

That Mavs loss sort of settles it though.

Sixerscan wrote:

ProcessDoctor wrote:https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/michael-jordan-faced-better-competition-than-lebron-james/

Lots of good discussions there about how MJ had tougher competition than LeBron.

Interesting, Jordan had a sweet spot during the 90s of facing a lot of very good but not elite championship quality teams. Whereas Lebron basically alternated between facing decent East teams and then the West juggernaut in the finals. I'd take the 4 Warriors teams and the '13 and '14 Spurs teams over anyone Jordan faced (just talking 90s), and that '12 Thunder team probably had as much talent as anyone but was too young.

That Mavs loss sort of settles it though.

That Mavs series has to eat away at LeBron and the Heat. Regardless of what tactics Dallas used, Miami should've never lost that series.

Edit: Just saw that the 2018 Cavs got to the Finals with a NET RTG of 1.0. Wow.

Negrodamus wrote:

freshie2 wrote:Style of play is the biggest difference. 10x more physical, players self enforced/dirty play during Jordan’s era. He would probably average 45 ppg in today’s game with the way the game is played/officiated.

3pt game - why would the hardest worker in the league not develop a 3? He would be around 40%.

Size - he would have all the same advanced nutrition and strength training that every other player does today...difference would be negligible.

In today game, MJ is still be the best player. Team success would be interesting as FA and self grouping didn’t exist back then. The Bulls front office was great in assembling the right players around him, so you have to give the benefit of the doubt they would be successful in FA.

Yea, I'm not sure why an 80+ FT% shooter with a very sound form would not be able to be at least a decent three point shooter. He would be an absolute force in today's game, especially with everyone spread out of the paint.

Some players just have range only to a certain point. ‘Olympic Melo’ was mostly due to Carmelo being able to can difficult shots (out of triple threat, quick release catch-and-shoots with little separation) from the international three that he couldn’t do from 23’9”. I don’t think Jordan’s lack of a three-point shot can be traced entirely to the style of play. He shot a much higher percentage from three and attempted them at a higher rate in the 2 seasons with short threes and then reverted back to his early numbers with the Wizards.