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Sixerscan wrote:

ProcessDoctor wrote:https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/michael-jordan-faced-better-competition-than-lebron-james/

Lots of good discussions there about how MJ had tougher competition than LeBron.

Interesting, Jordan had a sweet spot during the 90s of facing a lot of very good but not elite championship quality teams. Whereas Lebron basically alternated between facing decent East teams and then the West juggernaut in the finals. I'd take the 4 Warriors teams and the '13 and '14 Spurs teams over anyone Jordan faced (just talking 90s), and that '12 Thunder team probably had as much talent as anyone but was too young.

That Mavs loss sort of settles it though.

Not really considering MJ and LeBron were the same age at the time of their first titles. Jordan’s edge is mostly story where A) he entered the league at a later age so he had 3 fewer seasons of ‘failure’ earlier on and B) played for an organization much better at surrounding him with good teammates earlier in his career.

ProcessDoctor wrote:https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/michael-jordan-faced-better-competition-than-lebron-james/

Lots of good discussions there about how MJ had tougher competition than LeBron.

If im not mistaken, they based it on how teams fared during that era like using NetRtg.

For instance..

I dont think the 96 Sonics team would be a 64 win team in today’s NBA.

64 wins is better to the Warriors team with Kevin Durant.

I could be off with that Warriors comparison, but Look at the BPM of that 96 Sonics team to see how weak that team was. There was no superstar, kemp was more of a star player by cover rather than substance then there’s nobody who averaged more than 20 a game on that team.

In terms of talent, I think it’s comparable to one of those Buddenholzer’s Hawks team.

Yeah that Mavs finals really hurts for LBJ. But that was one of my personal favorite finals. Dirk was amazing

Negrodamus wrote:If we're going with the argument that Jordan played against weaker competition, at least give the era the credit of having the most talented rim protectors, as a whole, probably of all time. During Jordan's time, you had Shaq, Ewing, Robinson, Olajuwon, Eaton, both Malones, Laimbeer, Rodman (Detroit), Mutombo, etc, etc. Jordan did most of his work inside the arc and still was the most prolific scorer ever.

Now put him in this era where the top shot blockers are: Whiteside, Brook Lopez, Anthony Davis, Miles Turner, and Porzingis. I'm sorry, but those guys (aside from Davis) don't instill the same defensive fear that the aforementioned defensive stalwarts do. Jordan would feast on the game today.

Im not taking anything away from those great rim protectors. But it’s more of a rule change issue that lead to these players and team playing different ways on defense.

I think guys like Embiid, whiteside and etc would average more blocks per game in the old defensive rules. I doubt rim protectors now who are more skilled (thanks to education on past eras), longer and more athletic suddenly declined on their shot blocking ability.

Nevertheless, I’d say MJ scoring around the rim in the finals against Divac, Laimbeer (averaged below a block per game), Oliver Miller (only lone center on that roster) and Sam Perkins could be a tough task for MJ.

the main issue with ear comps is that our era benefits a lot from current tech and past knowledge. You put Jordan in todays NBA and he'd probably be a much better shooter by virtue of that being the game. You take todays stars and put them in the 90's and they wouldn't get bullied like people say because they would have grown up in that environment.

If I can jump in here, I think Jordan would absolutely be dominant in this era. Kobe Bryant stated that every bit of his greatness, came...from Michael Jordan. Kobe was obviously a dominant player and still would be had he been in his prime in this era. I just don't think it would matter with Jordan. He would play for team USA, or the all star game and instantly be the alpha amongst alphas...every time. The only people that suggest that he WOULDN'T be dominant in this era have either never seen him play or simply do not like him. As someone else pointed out, if you're mid 30s or older and are a fan of the game, then you know how amazing he was. Athletically, he'd still be the best in this current era. I don't even think Kawhi Leonard would give him trouble.
Now, the level of competition he faced is certainly in question. From 1991 up until his retirement, I never looked at an opposing roster he was facing and thought "well, they have a good chance against him." Maybe the Barkley led Suns I'd say gave him his best run. Utah looked formidable as well, but even then, I never thought those teams stood a chance.

I don't get the weaker competition argument.

Do people realize how much more competitive the 82 game grind was back in the day, before expansion?

If anything, this modern era is the most watered down the league has ever been. Irrelevant regular season and only 2-3 teams that matter on a year to year basis.

So if you're just looking at the top 3 players on the teams in playoff series and making judgement on competition levels, you're ignoring a ton of elements that need to be taken into account for the competition level.

To go from October to June and hold up the trophy at the end of the year was wayyyyyy harder back in the 80s and 90s. The league was so much more competitive from game to game, week to week, month to month with less dilution of rosters.

There's actually fewer American born players in the NBA now than there were in the early 90s. There are 3 more teams and 90 more international players. Just a much larger pool to choose from.

Anyway that Warriors team was clearly much better than their record was though that had more to do with them not taking the regular season seriously.

Lol the NBA is so much better today it isn't even funny.

It's not Jordan fault to have born in the 60's and played in the 80/90's, but you don't have to deny the reality to defend him.

Players today are bigger, more athletic and more polished. You didn' have freaks like Giannis, Embiid, Durant or Lebron. Even a player like Siakam is a better version of Pippen who was a top 5 player.

The talent pool today is much larger, tralning/nutrition/scouting/coaching is way better.

Are you familiar with Pippen or Siakam? Because those two players are nothing alike.

elchengue20 wrote:Lol the NBA is so much better today it isn't even funny.

It's not Jordan fault to have born in the 60's and played in the 80/90's, but you don't have to deny the reality to defend him.

Players today are bigger, more athletic and more polished. You didn' have freaks like Giannis, Embiid, Durant or Lebron. Even a player like Siakam is a better version of Pippen who was a top 5 player.

The talent pool today is much larger, tralning/nutrition/scouting/coaching is way better.

You're either trolling or really haven't watched too much from the older era. I'd guess trolling. How is the league better today? If you can legitimately answer that question for me, I will gladly wait, because I can tell you for many different reasons WHY it's not as good as it used to be if you'd like to hear them. Lets start with the physicality, load management, and the fact that all these fools do is jack up three point shots all game nowadays. I can go ahead and give you about twenty more reasons after that. But.....It is just my opinion at the end of the day and it's subjective. Still....I'd love to hear your reasons "why" it's better now.

Also, hardly anyone was making any money so everyone was scratching and clawing for a piece of the pie. The compete level was crazy. The players in the NBA today are fat and happy and reap the rewards of the league's popularity development over the last handful of decades. There's a severe diminished amount of motivation, league-wide.

ExplosionsInDaSky wrote:

elchengue20 wrote:Lol the NBA is so much better today it isn't even funny.

It's not Jordan fault to have born in the 60's and played in the 80/90's, but you don't have to deny the reality to defend him.

Players today are bigger, more athletic and more polished. You didn' have freaks like Giannis, Embiid, Durant or Lebron. Even a player like Siakam is a better version of Pippen who was a top 5 player.

The talent pool today is much larger, tralning/nutrition/scouting/coaching is way better.

You're either trolling or really haven't watched too much from the older era. I'd guess trolling. How is the league better today? If you can legitimately answer that question for me, I will gladly wait, because I can tell you for many different reasons WHY it's not as good as it used to be if you'd like to hear them. Lets start with the physicality, load management, and the fact that all these fools do is jack up three point shots all game nowadays. I can go ahead and give you about twenty more reasons after that. But.....It is just my opinion at the end of the day and it's subjective. Still....I'd love to hear your reasons "why" it's better now.

Just watch how the Bulls defended Reggie Miller in his famous game winner. They werent used to see players who can catch and shoot while mooving away from the basket.

To keep the discussion on topic, in terms of impact Embiid is like the Patrick Ewing of this era, now you tell me who is the better player. Embiid would be a monster in the 90's. A 7 foot dude who can shoot, drive, handle,post up, run the floor, pass. Hakeem was the only one who came close to that. Now you have AD, Durant, Giannis and Embiid.

The 3pt shot is the most valuable shot in the game. Its inevitable that as players and coaches became more used to it, his importance in the game grew a lot. Its not Jordan fault that the 3point didnt even exist when he learned to play basketball, its just how it is. The game evolves.

ExplosionsInDaSky wrote:

elchengue20 wrote:Lol the NBA is so much better today it isn't even funny.

It's not Jordan fault to have born in the 60's and played in the 80/90's, but you don't have to deny the reality to defend him.

Players today are bigger, more athletic and more polished. You didn' have freaks like Giannis, Embiid, Durant or Lebron. Even a player like Siakam is a better version of Pippen who was a top 5 player.

The talent pool today is much larger, tralning/nutrition/scouting/coaching is way better.

You're either trolling or really haven't watched too much from the older era. I'd guess trolling. How is the league better today? If you can legitimately answer that question for me, I will gladly wait, because I can tell you for many different reasons WHY it's not as good as it used to be if you'd like to hear them. Lets start with the physicality, load management, and the fact that all these fools do is jack up three point shots all game nowadays. I can go ahead and give you about twenty more reasons after that. But.....It is just my opinion at the end of the day and it's subjective. Still....I'd love to hear your reasons "why" it's better now.

I think with some of this you're conflating whether you like watching it better versus whether they're better at basketball.

Also no one played defense in the 80s on a random night in February.

I think there's an argument to be made that the basketball at the very top is a similar level but a matchup between, say, the Grizzlies and the Blazers in 2020 is much better than the 8th and 9th best western conference teams in 1985. The talent pool is just so much deeper now.

I believe that after the watered down - expansion era. The league went into a lockout to increase the salary in order to improve the talent pool of the league. This includes attracting foreign talent and opening of schools/camps/training ground for the sport (this includes studying decades of tapes on what to improve on).

If not for the lockdown which increased attractiveness for people to play the sport, Embiid would be playing volleyball. Ben simmons would be playing rugby. Brett brown will be playing professional boomerang.

76ciology wrote:

kuclas wrote:

Kobblehead wrote:
Disagree heavily. Jordan was ahead of his time playing in a league with a crowded paint and handchecking. Put him in the modern league and I think he'd average 45+ ppg.

Russell Westbrook's tenacity + Kawhi's two-way dominance + Andrew Wiggins athleticism. It would be a wrap for the league.

100% agree. It’s been 23 years since Jordan retired the second time. So memories of how great he was fades with the younger generation of posters on these forums. If you are in your late 30s and older. You know how great Jordan was.

Jordan had a very good low post game. Just deadly. And he was very strong. He would put so much pressure on the defense how to react. Can you imagine Jordan in the low post. Say Klay Thompson would try defend Jordan. Thompson is a very good defender. But not strong enough. So KD can rotate over and try to help. That’s suicide cause Jordan was way too quick and would beat the double team before it can rotate. Or he would find the open guy for a layup.

If you thought Jordan got a lot of fouls called during the 1990s. He’d be going to the free throw line 15 times a game in today’s no touch nba defense. He would average 45 points a game. Plus play elite defense.

SF will be on MJ and SG will be on Pippen like how Jazz did it. I find that wings got longer nowadays.

So like if Mj faced the clippers, George will be on Pippen then Kawhi will be on MJ. I dont think Mj ever faced anyone as long and as good as Kawhi.

Against the Sixers, Tobias will be on Pippen then Ben Simmons will be on MJ.

I think the coach is smart enough, you can even make a gameplan with Giannis on MJ then Middleton on Pippen or Rodman.

And against the Warriors. I think KD will make MJ have a tough time shooting over. While Rodman and Longley clogging the paint means centers and pfs like draymond or boguf can camp in the paint.

There is zero chance Giannis or KD can defend 1987-1993 Jordan on the perimeter without a ton of cheating help defenders. Leonard maybe to slow Jordan but Leonard is more small forward defender but he would be a liability in open space with Jordan. And Jordan doesn’t have tunnel vision like Embiid. That’s how he finds Steve Kerr and John Paxton for game winning shots in the playoffs. Wide open players cause double team collapses on Jordan.

That’s why I said many posters do not remember how quick Jordan was in open space. People have memories of Jordan 1995-1998. That Jordan different than Jordan 1997-1993 in terms of quickness. Just YouTube Jordan quickness. That first step was deadly off the dribble. While Jordan not Allen Iverson quick. He didn’t need to be with his height and length.

Durant is a bad one-on-one defender and hes the exact type of mentally weak individual Jordan preyed upon. He would also abuse Klay's defense. The Warriors would have to shadow him with bad knee Iguodala and even Draymond, at times. I don't see how they counter Jordan. Iguodala is their only conventional attempt at a check for Jordan. Maybe get creative with Draymond.

Jordan didn't face a lot of great defenders in the 90's.

Igoudala, Shawn Marion, Tayshaun Prince, Paul George and young Khawi Leonard are way better one on one wing defenders than anyone MJ faced.

I think the only great defense he faced was the Detroit Pistons team defense which was like the 2008-2010 Celtics team defense.

elchengue20 wrote:Jordan didn't face a lot of great defenders in the 90's.

Igoudala, Shawn Marion, Tayshaun Prince, Paul George and young Khawi Leonard are way better one on one wing defenders than anyone MJ faced.

I think the only great defense he faced was the Detroit Pistons team defense which was like the 2008-2010 Celtics team defense.

Seriously. No way any of iggy, prince, George , and evening Leonard can defense Jordan 1:1 in open space.

How old are you? Like i said. Any poster born after 1980 probably doesn’t have a good idea how quick Jordan was.

And Jordan was deadly iso. Put Leonard our on island with Jordan 20 feet from the basket. I’d put my money on Jordan. Go ahead. Give Leonard help defense secondary switch defender after Jordan blow by Leonard. Rotating help defender leave Horace Grant wide open for dunk or John Paxton for easy wide open 3 pointer.

Paul George was zero chance vs Jordan in open space.

And there were good defenders in the 1990s. But Jordan has height advantage of smaller John Starks. Gary Payton became more effective against Jordan in the later years of Jordan career.

But comparing Jordan 1987-1993. Forget it. Only the pistons slowed Jordan down and he figured out the pistons by 1990.

Look at this YouTube highlight. Mainly pre 1st retirement Jordan showing his elite quickness. Look at the first step. Jordan is in traffic all the time and still able to consistently beat double teams. No chance players of today can defense Jordan without significant help defenders.