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Championship hopes

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Re: Championship hopes 

Post#101 » by VDT » Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:47 pm

Part of the problem is the spacing and part of the problem is Embiid lacking a go to move, something expected for how much basketball he has played.

In the end it is on him (and on the team to help him) to prove that he can dominate against a team that has prepared for him. If any team can sign a random stiff and limit him with good team defense that's a problem.
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Re: Championship hopes 

Post#102 » by mike76 » Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:51 pm

regarding championship odds this year, that is irrelevant because this playoff will be a gimmick and will mean nothing.

regarding championship odds the following year: possible, some things would need to happen for next year

Embiid and Simmons fit fine. And they're not even hard to build around, especially if you commit to the idea that Ben is a point forward and not a point guard. 2 3 and D guards/wings + Ben + Tobi + Jojo should be perfect.

If Josh is healthy and back to like 80% of Miami Josh, then he's an easy one to plug in. He has a bad shot selection, but in Miami he was a 6+ 3PA guy. That plus good defense is all we need.

If Thybulle was better on offense, he would be the ideal 5th starter (but currently he's only a corner specialist which is a little limiting on offense, hopefully he improves which is possible). If Shake or Kork were better on defense, they would be the ideal 5th starter (I don't want a defender worse than Tobi getting 30+ minutes though in a playoff series). All 3 are viable bench pieces but not ideal starters yet. Best bet is hope that Zhaire's shooting numbers are for real in the G League and that his defense from Texas Tech translate (neither are a guarantee, but he has the most upside of any non starter as a 2-way player). Either that, or hope that we keep the OKC pick. Trading up (with 2 early seconds) for Vassell or Haliburton could work (assuming they both drop a bit). If not and if the price to trade up is too high to pay, there are a couple guys that I might like with the OKC pick depending on who is available.

Also wouldn't trade Al for pennies on the dollar. He's a bad stretch 4, but currently we are getting 48 minutes of All Star caliber play from the center position. That has value. Come playoff time, if you can give him 14 minutes as a backup 5 plus 10 minutes as a traditional power forward when both Ben and Tobi are off the court, that's 24 minutes of high impact play that we can get from Al come playoff time. That has value to us, and I don't see us getting equal value in return in any Horford-related trade.
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Re: Championship hopes 

Post#103 » by mike76 » Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:02 pm

so you end up with

Josh - <insert 2-way 3 and D guard/wing> - Ben - Tobi - Embiid
Ben - Thybulle - Korkmaz - Harris - Horford
Shake - <insert 2-way 3 and D guard/wing> - Josh - Horford - Embiid

9 man rotation with good staggering. And we aren't stuck giving currently meh players like Thybulle, Shake, or Korkmaz (not bad players, but they're not good enough to earn 30+ minutes) too many minutes

that type of rotation + keep our big names healthy, we can make some noise in the playoffs (not favorites, but we threw that away the moment we failed to run it back from last season)

so we only need one of the following to happen:
Thybulle improving on offense
Shake and Kork improving on defense
Zhaire's college hype to be for real
keep and do something good with the OKC pick.
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Re: Championship hopes 

Post#104 » by 76ciology » Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:09 am

Read on Twitter
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Re: Championship hopes 

Post#105 » by 76ciology » Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:56 am

Read on Twitter


Chemistry is a work in progress!

Once it clicks, watchout!
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Re: Championship hopes 

Post#106 » by Sixerscan » Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:14 pm

mike76 wrote:so you end up with

Josh - <insert 2-way 3 and D guard/wing> - Ben - Tobi - Embiid
Ben - Thybulle - Korkmaz - Harris - Horford
Shake - <insert 2-way 3 and D guard/wing> - Josh - Horford - Embiid

9 man rotation with good staggering. And we aren't stuck giving currently meh players like Thybulle, Shake, or Korkmaz (not bad players, but they're not good enough to earn 30+ minutes) too many minutes

that type of rotation + keep our big names healthy, we can make some noise in the playoffs (not favorites, but we threw that away the moment we failed to run it back from last season)

so we only need one of the following to happen:
Thybulle improving on offense
Shake and Kork improving on defense
Zhaire's college hype to be for real
keep and do something good with the OKC pick.


Yeah I think you laid it out well. I would just add that they can also try to sign someone to fill out the starting role with their MLE. Maybe someone like Kent Bazemore.
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Re: Championship hopes 

Post#107 » by youngcrev » Sun Jun 28, 2020 3:26 pm

76ciology wrote:
Read on Twitter


Chemistry is a work in progress!

Once it clicks, watchout!


It's kind of insane that with all the injuries we've had our projected starting lineup going into Disney has played zero minutes together as a unit.
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Re: Championship hopes 

Post#108 » by Sixerscan » Sun Jun 28, 2020 4:47 pm

youngcrev wrote:
76ciology wrote:
Read on Twitter


Chemistry is a work in progress!

Once it clicks, watchout!


It's kind of insane that with all the injuries we've had our projected starting lineup going into Disney has played zero minutes together as a unit.


Even the original starting 5 only played 4 minutes together in 3 games in the two months after Embiid broke his finger in early January. The Clippers game that Horford came off the bench and the two games before that Josh was on a minutes restriction for.

+28.6 net rating in those 4 minutes though! Problem solved! :D
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Re: Championship hopes 

Post#109 » by 76ciology » Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:50 am

Is OKC Russell Westbrook (30ppg triple double average) a better alpha or player to build around for a championship team than Ben or Biid?
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Re: Championship hopes 

Post#110 » by Mik317 » Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:36 pm

76ciology wrote:Is OKC Russell Westbrook (30ppg triple double average) a better alpha for a championship team than Ben or Biid?

this might be the dumbest statement in a while but

Westbrook might be TOO alpha lol. His supreme confidence is a gift and a curse. He wants to be involved in every single decision on the court and thus will shoot his teams in and out and back in and then back out of games all the time....this happens even moreso in the playoffs. Other teams often bait him into taking pull up 3s and midrange and while he will make some, he won't make them all and it often leads to his teammates being frozen out.

HOWEVA, Durant was the perfect fit next to him as he would be the one getting the ball down the stretch and it was the "others" coming up small that lead to those teams not fulling reaching it (ironically this included Harden lol; people forget that he was locked the **** up against Miami) and then once Durant left, it was really a one man band and when he got PG, they ran into the buzzsaw that was Dame lol....

But to answer the question even with my above caviats, yeah. Ben is too mellow ATM, Embiid is very similar to Westbrook (hence their beef lol) but as a center who relies even more on his teammates, he will always lag behind a ballhandling Aplha....hence why trading for Jimmy made a ton of sense on paper..but yet again Jimmy may be too alpha too lol.
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Re: Championship hopes 

Post#111 » by 76ciology » Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:01 pm

Mik317 wrote:
76ciology wrote:Is OKC Russell Westbrook (30ppg triple double average) a better alpha for a championship team than Ben or Biid?

this might be the dumbest statement in a while but

Westbrook might be TOO alpha lol. His supreme confidence is a gift and a curse. He wants to be involved in every single decision on the court and thus will shoot his teams in and out and back in and then back out of games all the time....this happens even moreso in the playoffs. Other teams often bait him into taking pull up 3s and midrange and while he will make some, he won't make them all and it often leads to his teammates being frozen out.

HOWEVA, Durant was the perfect fit next to him as he would be the one getting the ball down the stretch and it was the "others" coming up small that lead to those teams not fulling reaching it (ironically this included Harden lol; people forget that he was locked the **** up against Miami) and then once Durant left, it was really a one man band and when he got PG, they ran into the buzzsaw that was Dame lol....

But to answer the question even with my above caviats, yeah. Ben is too mellow ATM, Embiid is very similar to Westbrook (hence their beef lol) but as a center who relies even more on his teammates, he will always lag behind a ballhandling Aplha....hence why trading for Jimmy made a ton of sense on paper..but yet again Jimmy may be too alpha too lol.


Sorry my bad mik3,

I meant who is the best player to build around among RW, Biid and Ben.

I agree with the personality comparison btw
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Re: Championship hopes 

Post#112 » by Mik317 » Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:36 pm

Thats a tough one lol.

If you think about each of them has what the others lack in someways. RW has the mentality of a killer but could use more of Ben's cerebral aspect....and vice versa. Embiid could stand to play or be able to play with the constant energy of RW but also the stamina of him and Ben but both would be scary with Embiid's physical tools.

You could build a great team around any of them. All need a very specific running mate; a shot creator who is willing and able to play off ball.... Westbrook had that in Durant but because of Presti choosing wrong the team capped out on Ibaka and never got the right collection of role players...and also ran into the Warriors lol. But Durant is a rarity; not only from a pure basketball standpoint but most guys of his calibur want to have the ball in their hands at all times. Giannis has Middleton but his shot creation lags a bit.

So pivoting from that lets see. Surround them with shooters. Maximize spacing and give them a bunch of release valves. That would mean Westbrook is the best to build around in that setting because he is able to get his own shot off the bounce. Followed by Ben because it doesn't require post entry like it would for Embiid. However defensively Embiid would be the best option as most shooters aren't the best defenders. Ben would be second defensively. Westbrook last. I don't think this is a valid team building strat tho. Shooters tend to fall off in the playoffs.

PNR heavy offense is another option. Westbrook in theory could thrive in this but most would simply egg him into those mid range shots. Ben is even worse in that..and is ironically better at being the roller in this. Embiid, we simply don't know how he'd work in that because he hasn't had a good running mate....and again it requires having a top notch PG...which again does not grow on trees lol.

So its tough to say. There is a lot of potential downsides HOWEVER I think there are worse problems to have. We have two of those guys...which is something I think we all take for granted. Wonky fit and all but we have two guys worth building with.

But regardless, if we had one or two, they will need to sacrifice and adjust to make it work...Westbrook never did and it kinda cost him a bit, Even now with Harden, its still a take turns system and them going small is more for Westbrook's benefit than anything
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Re: Championship hopes 

Post#113 » by 76ciology » Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:29 pm

Personally I feel RW, Biid and Ben are under the same categories of franchise players that needs more talent than usual franchise players who have won championships (i.e Kawhi, Dirk and other greats).

It also make me wonder if peak Ben would be better than OKC RW. And if RW’s style of play is a better style for an alpha of a championship team than Biid’s style of play.
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Re: Championship hopes 

Post#114 » by tigermars » Wed Jul 1, 2020 3:28 pm

76ciology wrote:Personally I feel RW, Biid and Ben are under the same categories of franchise players that needs more talent than usual franchise players who have won championships (i.e Kawhi, Dirk and other greats).

It also make me wonder if peak Ben would be better than OKC RW. And if RW’s style of play is a better style for an alpha of a championship team than Biid’s style of play.


Dirk and Hakeem was the only leading bigman to carry a team to the championship without top 3 wing or playmaker. Is there more upside for Embiid to carry the offense?
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Re: Championship hopes 

Post#115 » by 76ciology » Wed Jul 1, 2020 3:47 pm

Crazy if Zhaire had covid and the team just announced its a knee injury to not alarm the league when zhaire was on the training facility training with the team.

This is speculation and i dont even know if he was training with the team hahaha
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Re: Championship hopes 

Post#116 » by 76ciology » Wed Jul 1, 2020 3:49 pm

tigermars wrote:
76ciology wrote:Personally I feel RW, Biid and Ben are under the same categories of franchise players that needs more talent than usual franchise players who have won championships (i.e Kawhi, Dirk and other greats).

It also make me wonder if peak Ben would be better than OKC RW. And if RW’s style of play is a better style for an alpha of a championship team than Biid’s style of play.


Dirk and Hakeem was the only leading bigman to carry a team to the championship without top 3 wing or playmaker. Is there more upside for Embiid to carry the offense?


I think there are many more bigs (Duncan with Kawhi? KG with Pierce and Ray?). But a lot fewer centers. But I think I get what you mean.

I think for Embiid to carry an offense, he needs a perimeter star that is good enough to make him play the no.2 on offense. Think what Kobe was to Shaq. But think a better Kobe since Shaq is way dominant than Embiid.
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Re: Championship hopes 

Post#117 » by elchengue20 » Wed Jul 1, 2020 8:37 pm

How people insists that Ben and Embiid are a good fit it's beyond me.

We are in 2020 and our 2 franchise players are uncorfortable shooting 3's (one can't even shoot it), both need space inside to operate. It's not rocket science.

Building around them isn't easy. In general, if you have 2 superstars as they are suposed to be, you only need 3+D guys. That won't cut it with them. You still need a perimetrer scorer/creator in the half court, making things very difficult, because you won't get that calibeer of a player as your #3 best player. At least not one who is good enough on defense, while also being an great off ball shooter to compliment them.That's why we have freaking Tobias Harris, it's the best we could get in that role. And that's why this roster is so strange and ankward, because to build around them you have to get creative.
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Re: Championship hopes 

Post#118 » by Stanford » Thu Jul 2, 2020 2:08 am

I refuse to believe that Embiid is uncomfortable shooting threes.
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Re: Championship hopes 

Post#119 » by 76ciology » Thu Jul 2, 2020 5:05 am

Stanford wrote:I refuse to believe that Embiid is uncomfortable shooting threes.


“Comfortable” and “uncomfortable” have a wide variety.

I look at his numbers and he’s actually a more and arguably better perimeter scorer than Jimmy Butler.

Does he want to play that way or does the make-up of the team forces him to play that way is something he can only tell us.

Personally, I want him to be comfortable and improve with his 3pt shooting.

I find that he’s best play-off games against good teams are whenever he is shooting from the outside and making those perimeter shots than when he is heavily trying to force his way into the paint.

We all want Ben to shoot. But IMO a more realistic Scenario or atleast a short term solution is simply just Biid improving his shooting.

Which is better between trying to force his way inside and shooting jumpers? It really depends on how is your shooting that game and how is the defense is playing us. Like if it’s Jarett Allen at center, you better try to Shaq your way in the paint. But if it’s Gasol or Brolo with their team defense, try to stretch the floor and be more surgical in attacking the defense.
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Re: Championship hopes 

Post#120 » by 76ciology » Thu Jul 2, 2020 5:12 am

elchengue20 wrote:How people insists that Ben and Embiid are a good fit it's beyond me.

We are in 2020 and our 2 franchise players are uncorfortable shooting 3's (one can't even shoot it), both need space inside to operate. It's not rocket science.

Building around them isn't easy. In general, if you have 2 superstars as they are suposed to be, you only need 3+D guys. That won't cut it with them. You still need a perimetrer scorer/creator in the half court, making things very difficult, because you won't get that calibeer of a player as your #3 best player. At least not one who is good enough on defense, while also being an great off ball shooter to compliment them.That's why we have freaking Tobias Harris, it's the best we could get in that role. And that's why this roster is so strange and ankward, because to build around them you have to get creative.


The biggest problem I saw is good teams would sag off both Biid and Ben. This forces a heavy perimeter shooting game that lies at the shoulder of role players, Tobi and Jrich. We saw that during the Celts playoffs with Baynes and Al then recently against the Bucks with Giannis and Brolo, this is a really smart strategy that you can’t even have Al post up Wes Matthews given you have a couple of 7’ defenders in the paint.

Are Biid and Ben good fits? Not perfect and not bad. I’d say average but they can be good fits if they try to find ways to make it work.
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