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Championship hopes

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Re: Championship hopes 

Post#21 » by 76ciology » Wed Jun 3, 2020 5:35 pm

Regarding fit.

The 2018-2019 squad was a good squad in terms of fit. JJ and Biid had their chemistry. Ben is one of the best is assisting to 3pt shooters like Marco, Dario and Roco.

BUT, smart teams like the Bos found ways to weaken both guys with Baynes and Horford’s defense on both Biid and Ben respectively. Both guys took away their size advantage, and after that it was over.

2019-2020, that team for me was when we went all in. After the Jimmy and Tobi trade, we probably were the next best thing to a full health warriors. But Raps were smart to go after Gasol during the deadline. While having Jimmy marginalized Ben.

In a nutshell Ben and Biid are not good fits. But like chess pieces, the value of a chess piece is relative to it’s position. I think adding Al was a step towards that. Al allows you to slide either, both or all of Biid, Ben and Tobi, this way you can create mismatches to generate playoff offense (your usual sets wont work in the playoffs).

The problem was the drama Biid had this season that kind of got us out of the rhythm. We looked like a championship team at home and against key games against the Bucks. We just need more time for the team to gel.

2018-2019, we learned they are not shaq and kobe that will dominate all types of defense that stays in their way and they can just kick it to open shooters.
2019-2020, we learned that we need to get both Biid and Ben involved. We didn’t have any mismatch in that series that can collapse the defense unlike how Raps has with Siakam when he was defended by Tobi and Kawhi when he was defended by Jimmy or Ben.

2020-2021, this squad can space the floor and force mismatches. Game 7 crunch time, we can dump it on one of Ben, Biid or Tobi against a mismatch and let them collapse the defense to an open shooter (we have 4 shooters at all time). Then potentially have one of an all time great caliber defense with multiple guys who can switch positions on defense.

Let’s not forget that this squad had 538 having us the favorites to win it all.

On a sidenote, I think letting Al stay and replacing Milton in the place of Josh Rich might also help the starting unit function better (currently has +8 NetRtg).
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Re: Championship hopes 

Post#22 » by elchengue20 » Wed Jun 3, 2020 9:37 pm

Wilfried wrote:
elchengue20 wrote:
To compliment Biid+Simmoms you need players who are lights out shooters, good defenders and 1 o 2 shot creators. Thats very dificult to get from guys who are your 3rd, 4rt or 5t best player on the team.


Damned, how many of those are in the NBA today?

1 or 2?


Thats the point. Its very hard to get those players, even harder if you cant pay them much because they are supposed to be your 4th or 5th best player.

But for example, if you don't have Simmons in there, you dont need all of them to be lights out shooters, with only 1 and 3 above average you have enough spacing.

The point is the mix of skills for the complementary players you need around Ben and Embiid are very hard to get. The FO and their stupids signigns made this even harder. Righ now freaking Tobias Harris is our perimeter go to player.
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Re: Championship hopes 

Post#23 » by Kobblehead » Thu Jun 4, 2020 12:47 pm

I think discussions of fit are overrated.

Maybe Simmons/Embiid had trouble conquering the Celtics because they were kids with no experience (23 and 21 years old respectively) and had a terrible defensive supporting cast.

Maybe the 2018 Sixers didn't go all the way because they were formed on the fly and had no time to build chemistry.
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Re: Championship hopes 

Post#24 » by Mik317 » Thu Jun 4, 2020 4:17 pm

fit matters more for the role players. Our current role players all thrive in the mid range area....which does not mesh well with our two main pieces. Many of the recent Bron led teams for example; Bron and his co-star both were high volume ballhandlers. Wade learn to cut more off ball but was never a big time spot up guy like Bron needs. Kyrie could but as a weirdo probably didn;t want to lol and thus in both situations both guys often took turns running the show. Bosh and KLove had to sacrifice by being spot up rebounders but every one else was just shooters, who existed as release valves on drives. Ben and Biid can also take turns but the issue yet again is that even in that setting...Ben doesn't have enough willing shooters or athletes to run with him. And Biid doesn't have enough willing shooters or a dho partner to run with him. Instead we have two dudes who want to crafty dribble their way into mid range jumpers and a center who is at his best as a passing hub at the top of the key....neither of which works with both guys on the floor. Hell most Championship teams seem to have these dual systems at play. The Raptors stayed afloat when Kawhii sat because they had system based on Siakham and when Kawhii was in, it was the Kawhii iso to death system. The Warriors did something similar upon getting KD (KD is a humanoid hax tho so he can fit into damn near any system)...but the key was that their role players all fit both of those systems.

Its as Kobble says above tho, the FO rushed things and took the wrong messages from failure. That first run shouldn't have been push all your cards in ASAP because of a flukey run...it should have been to allow dudes to grow. Then they double down on it by not letting their all in team mesh either by the Tobias trade AND yet again by not "running it back".

so yeah I won't be surprise if the lessons learned from our invetiable exit will be to trade one of the two lol.
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Re: Championship hopes 

Post#25 » by 76ciology » Thu Jun 4, 2020 4:18 pm

Kobblehead wrote:I think discussions of fit are overrated.

Maybe Simmons/Embiid had trouble conquering the Celtics because they were kids with no experience (23 and 21 years old respectively) and had a terrible defensive supporting cast.

Maybe the 2018 Sixers didn't go all the way because they were formed on the fly and had no time to build chemistry.


I know Ben and Biid still can’t dominate match-ups against guys who can match-up their size.

This is like IF MJ struggling against same sized Byron Russell. So Phil Jackson has to go to Pippen to use his size on Hornacek.

But I’m hoping one day Biid and Ben will be so dominant that they can carry an offense like LeBron and AD against almost all match-ups. But until then, we need to put these chess piece on positions or match-up they can take advantage with.
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Re: Championship hopes 

Post#26 » by Mik317 » Thu Jun 4, 2020 4:50 pm

neither guy should be able to be shut down by one dude at the end of the day tho.

Embiid wants to be the biggest and baddest dude out then old ass Marc Gasol and Al Horford can stymie him like they did. That hopefully comes with time as they both simply baited him into thinking he had an opening and then putting himself into bad spots in which the double can come at the same time as his move. Again he needs to make his moves quicker and more assertively. Again hopefully with time.

Ben is 6'10 and 250 and fast as ****. Yeah he needs to shoot but if Tony Wroten at 6'4 and 180 something could throw his ass at the rim then Ben's big ass should be able to as well...Wroten had even worse spacing too lol.

I often cape for both guys but they play a big role in this too. But again hopefully that will come with time. yeah Embiid is getting up there but he also missed two years and had a late start prior to that. I was hoping the TO loss was going to be the energizer but then the FO decided to up the difficulty scale even more with their team building lol.

But still both dudes gotta improve too
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Re: Championship hopes 

Post#27 » by elchengue20 » Thu Jun 4, 2020 4:53 pm

76ciology wrote:
Kobblehead wrote:I think discussions of fit are overrated.

Maybe Simmons/Embiid had trouble conquering the Celtics because they were kids with no experience (23 and 21 years old respectively) and had a terrible defensive supporting cast.

Maybe the 2018 Sixers didn't go all the way because they were formed on the fly and had no time to build chemistry.


I know Ben and Biid still can’t dominate match-ups against guys who can match-up their size.

This is like IF MJ struggling against same sized Byron Russell. So Phil Jackson has to go to Pippen to use his size on Hornacek.

But I’m hoping one day Biid and Ben will be so dominant that they can carry an offense like LeBron and AD against almost all match-ups. But until then, we need to put these chess piece on positions or match-up they can take advantage with.


It's very difficult nowadays to rely on your PF/C to be the go to player. I think only Hakeem won a championship playing that way and still had good shoters and a couple of shot creators around him. Even Shaq needed a Hardaway/Kobe/Wade to make plays for him. Kareem needed Magic. AD as the go to player only played in mediocre teams.

If you don't have a consistent shot creator in the half court, at least you need great spacing, like the Howard Orlando Magic teams(still had Turkoglu and Nelson who were decent shot creators). We don't have neither of those things.

Sure, Ben could learn to shoot and our fit problems would be mainly solved. But i don't see that happening. He hasn't improved in 3 years, he's basically the same player. At this point is more probable to expect Embiid to become an volume above average shooter.
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Re: Championship hopes 

Post#28 » by Negrodamus » Thu Jun 4, 2020 5:27 pm

Well, Tim Duncan just ended an era where he was clearly the dominant big man star for his team. It can be argued that Ginobili and Parker were great players too, but Hakeem also had Drexler (for one of them), Vernon Maxwell, Otis Thorpe, Robert Horry in his championship years in an MJ-less NBA. I don't think it's fair to say any player had zero help in their pursuit towards winning a championship in recent history. I think the closest we got to that was LeBron in 2006 when he lost in the Finals with Zyrundas Ilgauskas or Larry Hughes (lol) as his second best player.

I guess you could also say Dirk with his gang of washed players.
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Re: Championship hopes 

Post#29 » by 76ciology » Thu Jun 4, 2020 5:38 pm

elchengue20 wrote:
76ciology wrote:
Kobblehead wrote:I think discussions of fit are overrated.

Maybe Simmons/Embiid had trouble conquering the Celtics because they were kids with no experience (23 and 21 years old respectively) and had a terrible defensive supporting cast.

Maybe the 2018 Sixers didn't go all the way because they were formed on the fly and had no time to build chemistry.


I know Ben and Biid still can’t dominate match-ups against guys who can match-up their size.

This is like IF MJ struggling against same sized Byron Russell. So Phil Jackson has to go to Pippen to use his size on Hornacek.

But I’m hoping one day Biid and Ben will be so dominant that they can carry an offense like LeBron and AD against almost all match-ups. But until then, we need to put these chess piece on positions or match-up they can take advantage with.


It's very difficult nowadays to rely on your PF/C to be the go to player. I think only Hakeem won a championship playing that way and still had good shoters and a couple of shot creators around him. Even Shaq needed a Hardaway/Kobe/Wade to make plays for him. Kareem needed Magic. AD as the go to player only played in mediocre teams.

If you don't have a consistent shot creator in the half court, at least you need great spacing, like the Howard Orlando Magic teams(still had Turkoglu and Nelson who were decent shot creators). We don't have neither of those things.

Sure, Ben could learn to shoot and our fit problems would be mainly solved. But i don't see that happening. He hasn't improved in 3 years, he's basically the same player. At this point is more probable to expect Embiid to become an volume above average shooter.


My thoughts exactly and you can backtrack to one of my similar post about this.

It’s a size issue. Centers faced the biggest and best defenders on almost every night. It takes a freak like Shaq or Wilt to be dominant. I think we’re seeing Giannis as really the modern day center. Anyway, I dont see Biid being in that category. And if he does, you have to worry his health.

For me, to make Biid the best or one of the top 3-5 players in the league, you have to slide him to PF where he can take advantage among all PFs and also have the footspeed to stay with them.

Healthwise, losing weight and having also a refined perimeter game helps his longevity and compliments Ben better.

In the end, its the FO’s responsibility to put the players in favorable stage to perform better. And I think Biid at C and having a mobile PF defend Ben is not the way to go. I mean, sure you can have a +1 million NetRtg 5 man unit and brag it on twitter. But come the playoffs, smart team will just neutralized like a yearly parade of the emperor without clothes.

*I already looked at it. PFs had good track record
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Re: Championship hopes 

Post#30 » by elchengue20 » Thu Jun 4, 2020 6:57 pm

Negrodamus wrote:Well, Tim Duncan just ended an era where he was clearly the dominant big man star for his team. It can be argued that Ginobili and Parker were great players too, but Hakeem also had Drexler (for one of them), Vernon Maxwell, Otis Thorpe, Robert Horry in his championship years in an MJ-less NBA. I don't think it's fair to say any player had zero help in their pursuit towards winning a championship in recent history. I think the closest we got to that was LeBron in 2006 when he lost in the Finals with Zyrundas Ilgauskas or Larry Hughes (lol) as his second best player.

I guess you could also say Dirk with his gang of washed players.


Duncan played a lot of PF, but i give you that. Still had two elite shot creators in Parker and Ginobili and great spacing and enough defense in Horry,Bowen ,Diaw,etc.

Obviously nobody wins a championship alone, thats why i'm arguing we have fit problems with Embiid/Simmons and this suporting cast.
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Re: Championship hopes 

Post#31 » by Mik317 » Thu Jun 4, 2020 7:28 pm

i'm just saying I'd rather see if getting both guys pieces that fit before giving up on the pairing.

Of course that is rather hard to do at the moment
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Re: Championship hopes 

Post#32 » by Negrodamus » Thu Jun 4, 2020 7:28 pm

elchengue20 wrote:
Negrodamus wrote:Well, Tim Duncan just ended an era where he was clearly the dominant big man star for his team. It can be argued that Ginobili and Parker were great players too, but Hakeem also had Drexler (for one of them), Vernon Maxwell, Otis Thorpe, Robert Horry in his championship years in an MJ-less NBA. I don't think it's fair to say any player had zero help in their pursuit towards winning a championship in recent history. I think the closest we got to that was LeBron in 2006 when he lost in the Finals with Zyrundas Ilgauskas or Larry Hughes (lol) as his second best player.

I guess you could also say Dirk with his gang of washed players.


Duncan played a lot of PF, but i give you that. Still had two elite shot creators in Parker and Ginobili and great spacing and enough defense in Horry,Bowen ,Diaw,etc.

Obviously nobody wins a championship alone, thats why i'm arguing we have fit problems with Embiid/Simmons and this suporting cast.


Well, that's for certain, but we haven't had a GM that can put all the necessary pieces together. Horford, Harris, and Fultz have been the main that have, and will, hold us back from constructing a team necessary to winning it all.
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Re: Championship hopes 

Post#33 » by Sixerscan » Fri Jun 5, 2020 12:19 am

Hard to over-exaggerate how big a factor Fultz busting is in all this.

If he's Donovan Mitchell (a perfectly reasonable result for a #1 pick historically) they're in great shape. That one factor changed it from idiot-proof to needing some skill in the GM chair.
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Re: Championship hopes 

Post#34 » by Kobblehead » Fri Jun 5, 2020 12:33 am

I still think blowing #10 the following year was an even bigger dagger to this franchise.

We could have survived the Fultz pick with no problem whatsoever if we just take Gilgeous-Alexander instead of being scared off by a teenager telling people he wants to play in California (look where he is now).
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Re: Championship hopes 

Post#35 » by elchengue20 » Fri Jun 5, 2020 5:29 am

Yeah, if Fultz was like 60/70% of the player he was suposed to be, he would be the exact kind of player we are needing right now.

Even with that major setback, we still had a great oportunity to build a title favorite and we blew it. Colangelo and Brand have been terrible as GM. Specially Brand last off season.
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Re: Championship hopes 

Post#36 » by Mik317 » Fri Jun 5, 2020 1:09 pm

Kobblehead wrote:I still think blowing #10 the following year was an even bigger dagger to this franchise.

We could have survived the Fultz pick with no problem whatsoever if we just take Gilgeous-Alexander instead of being scared off by a teenager telling people he wants to play in California (look where he is now).

I often lie to myself that he went before 10 to keep me from crying lol.

holy ****
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Re: Championship hopes 

Post#37 » by rzzzzz » Fri Jun 5, 2020 5:11 pm

we're told that Ben is healthy. he was coming on strong before he went down. Embiid looked great down the stretch of that All-Star game. wonder what kind of shape he shows up in. this is put up or shut up time for Brett, but he's still got considerable talent to play with. enough talent to take anybody, really.
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Re: Championship hopes 

Post#38 » by elchengue20 » Fri Jun 5, 2020 11:30 pm

76ciology wrote:
elchengue20 wrote:
76ciology wrote:
I know Ben and Biid still can’t dominate match-ups against guys who can match-up their size.

This is like IF MJ struggling against same sized Byron Russell. So Phil Jackson has to go to Pippen to use his size on Hornacek.

But I’m hoping one day Biid and Ben will be so dominant that they can carry an offense like LeBron and AD against almost all match-ups. But until then, we need to put these chess piece on positions or match-up they can take advantage with.


It's very difficult nowadays to rely on your PF/C to be the go to player. I think only Hakeem won a championship playing that way and still had good shoters and a couple of shot creators around him. Even Shaq needed a Hardaway/Kobe/Wade to make plays for him. Kareem needed Magic. AD as the go to player only played in mediocre teams.

If you don't have a consistent shot creator in the half court, at least you need great spacing, like the Howard Orlando Magic teams(still had Turkoglu and Nelson who were decent shot creators). We don't have neither of those things.

Sure, Ben could learn to shoot and our fit problems would be mainly solved. But i don't see that happening. He hasn't improved in 3 years, he's basically the same player. At this point is more probable to expect Embiid to become an volume above average shooter.


My thoughts exactly and you can backtrack to one of my similar post about this.

It’s a size issue. Centers faced the biggest and best defenders on almost every night. It takes a freak like Shaq or Wilt to be dominant. I think we’re seeing Giannis as really the modern day center. Anyway, I dont see Biid being in that category. And if he does, you have to worry his health.

For me, to make Biid the best or one of the top 3-5 players in the league, you have to slide him to PF where he can take advantage among all PFs and also have the footspeed to stay with them.

Healthwise, losing weight and having also a refined perimeter game helps his longevity and compliments Ben better.

In the end, its the FO’s responsibility to put the players in favorable stage to perform better. And I think Biid at C and having a mobile PF defend Ben is not the way to go. I mean, sure you can have a +1 million NetRtg 5 man unit and brag it on twitter. But come the playoffs, smart team will just neutralized like a yearly parade of the emperor without clothes.

*I already looked at it. PFs had good track record


Even Giannis struggles in close games in the Playoffs. To win it all the Bucks need Middleton/Bledsoe to make plays. That's why i'm not so high on their chances like most people are. Maybe if Giannis continues to make his outside shot things will get a little easier for them this time.

If it were only a size issue, we should be in great shape. With Ben at PG,J-Rich, Tobias, Horford and Embiid we have the biggest lineup in the NBA. That's is our plan, to create mismatches size wise. The problem is most of them aren't good one on one scorers and playmakers, they won't punish mismaches consistenly.

I think it's more of a skill issue. You need players who can create shots in the half court for himself and for others, specially when things get harder in the Playoffs. We only have Biid and as we said, Center is the most difficult position to rely on in those situations, they get doubled more easily.

I get that with our current lineup defense can be great, but still i don't think you can win a championship if your lacking that kind of player. The closest thing we had was Jimmy and we let him walk away. Plus, if you take account that our spacing isn't great, things gets even more difficult in that regard.
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Re: Championship hopes 

Post#39 » by rulebook » Sat Jun 6, 2020 1:35 am

elchengue20 wrote:
76ciology wrote:
elchengue20 wrote:
It's very difficult nowadays to rely on your PF/C to be the go to player. I think only Hakeem won a championship playing that way and still had good shoters and a couple of shot creators around him. Even Shaq needed a Hardaway/Kobe/Wade to make plays for him. Kareem needed Magic. AD as the go to player only played in mediocre teams.

If you don't have a consistent shot creator in the half court, at least you need great spacing, like the Howard Orlando Magic teams(still had Turkoglu and Nelson who were decent shot creators). We don't have neither of those things.

Sure, Ben could learn to shoot and our fit problems would be mainly solved. But i don't see that happening. He hasn't improved in 3 years, he's basically the same player. At this point is more probable to expect Embiid to become an volume above average shooter.


My thoughts exactly and you can backtrack to one of my similar post about this.

It’s a size issue. Centers faced the biggest and best defenders on almost every night. It takes a freak like Shaq or Wilt to be dominant. I think we’re seeing Giannis as really the modern day center. Anyway, I dont see Biid being in that category. And if he does, you have to worry his health.

For me, to make Biid the best or one of the top 3-5 players in the league, you have to slide him to PF where he can take advantage among all PFs and also have the footspeed to stay with them.

Healthwise, losing weight and having also a refined perimeter game helps his longevity and compliments Ben better.

In the end, its the FO’s responsibility to put the players in favorable stage to perform better. And I think Biid at C and having a mobile PF defend Ben is not the way to go. I mean, sure you can have a +1 million NetRtg 5 man unit and brag it on twitter. But come the playoffs, smart team will just neutralized like a yearly parade of the emperor without clothes.

*I already looked at it. PFs had good track record


Even Giannis struggles in close games in the Playoffs. To win it all the Bucks need Middleton/Bledsoe to make plays. That's why i'm not so high on their chances like most people are. Maybe if Giannis continues to make his outside shot things will get a little easier for them this time.

If it were only a size issue, we should be in great shape. With Ben at PG,J-Rich, Tobias, Horford and Embiid we have the biggest lineup in the NBA. That's is our plan, to create mismatches size wise. The problem is most of them aren't good one on one scorers and playmakers, they won't punish mismaches consistenly.

I think it's more of a skill issue. You need players who can create shots in the half court for himself and for others, specially when things get harder in the Playoffs. We only have Biid and as we said, Center is the most difficult position to rely on in those situations, they get doubled more easily.

I get that with our current lineup defense can be great, but still i don't think you can win a championship if your lacking that kind of player. The closest thing we had was Jimmy and we let him walk away. Plus, if you take account that our spacing isn't great, things gets even more difficult in that regard.


Agree. I tend to think we romanticize jimmy’s playoff heroics, but the reality is that we went from having “a guy” to having none. That will hurt.
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Re: Championship hopes 

Post#40 » by 76ciology » Sat Jun 6, 2020 4:26 am

rulebook wrote:
elchengue20 wrote:
76ciology wrote:
My thoughts exactly and you can backtrack to one of my similar post about this.

It’s a size issue. Centers faced the biggest and best defenders on almost every night. It takes a freak like Shaq or Wilt to be dominant. I think we’re seeing Giannis as really the modern day center. Anyway, I dont see Biid being in that category. And if he does, you have to worry his health.

For me, to make Biid the best or one of the top 3-5 players in the league, you have to slide him to PF where he can take advantage among all PFs and also have the footspeed to stay with them.

Healthwise, losing weight and having also a refined perimeter game helps his longevity and compliments Ben better.

In the end, its the FO’s responsibility to put the players in favorable stage to perform better. And I think Biid at C and having a mobile PF defend Ben is not the way to go. I mean, sure you can have a +1 million NetRtg 5 man unit and brag it on twitter. But come the playoffs, smart team will just neutralized like a yearly parade of the emperor without clothes.

*I already looked at it. PFs had good track record


Even Giannis struggles in close games in the Playoffs. To win it all the Bucks need Middleton/Bledsoe to make plays. That's why i'm not so high on their chances like most people are. Maybe if Giannis continues to make his outside shot things will get a little easier for them this time.

If it were only a size issue, we should be in great shape. With Ben at PG,J-Rich, Tobias, Horford and Embiid we have the biggest lineup in the NBA. That's is our plan, to create mismatches size wise. The problem is most of them aren't good one on one scorers and playmakers, they won't punish mismaches consistenly.

I think it's more of a skill issue. You need players who can create shots in the half court for himself and for others, specially when things get harder in the Playoffs. We only have Biid and as we said, Center is the most difficult position to rely on in those situations, they get doubled more easily.

I get that with our current lineup defense can be great, but still i don't think you can win a championship if your lacking that kind of player. The closest thing we had was Jimmy and we let him walk away. Plus, if you take account that our spacing isn't great, things gets even more difficult in that regard.


Agree. I tend to think we romanticize jimmy’s playoff heroics, but the reality is that we went from having “a guy” to having none. That will hurt.


We wont have “a guy” we will have “the guys”.

The problem with “a guy” you need to have drafted a guy like Giannis in 2013 or a LeBron type player who can win 99% of the match-ups. Jimmy is not that good enough to be “the guy”. He isn’t that good of a shooter or has more than elite length to win most match-ups.

Personally I think Ben and Biid can be better “guys” if we can slide them down, because they are high fg% scorers thr can pose a bigger mismatch than butler can.
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