Re: Offseason plan : Fixing this mess
Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 4:04 am
Should do Horford for Gordon/Covington
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twix2500 wrote:stormi wrote:twix2500 wrote:I tried to move Horford, but the return looks like it would not help. 76er got to have two elite shooters in the starting lineup. That was the only I can see getting two elite saavy shooters that complement the stars in other ways as well, Love rebounding and passing and Kennard ball handling and passing.
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What do you mean by this?
I don't think the value lines up personally. Kennard while intriguing, is damaged goods. Love is on a humongous contract like Harris. Snell is FA fodder. Giving up Thybulle skews the value against Philadelphia, we brought in another 'big' and Horford is still floating around without a place on the roster.
I do like the value of Love and see the fit between him- Joel and Ben, I like more than others but #HorfOut has to be priority #1.
I like Thybulle, but he is just a role player. Treat him as such. Role players are replacable and they come and go. When you are trying
to be contenders you can't be overvaluing role players. Can't be acting like Knick fans who wanted to hold up the franchise for Iman Shumpert.
You are not getting a budding star for Harris or Horford. Horford age is not gonna net a quality return. Can't imagine a team giving the 76ers cap relief for just the rights to Horford alone. Likely need attach a player or draft pick. Harris has been terrible as a 76ers. Love contract is less and shorter than Harris. So there are some financial gain.
OKC wanted a lot for Chris Paul. They wanted multiple young players and cap relief. Plus getting Paul is taking the ball completely out of Simmons hands. He's too ball dominant.
I agree that an additional ball handler is needed (not a dominant one), that is why I think Kennard is a great fit. He brings shooting, ball handling, off the ball movement and good passer without being ball dominant.
What do you mean Kennard is damage goods? Does he have a chronic injury?
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sixers hoops wrote:zimpy27 wrote:Yes, mistakes were made.
But a team with Harris, Simmons, Embiid was a whisker away from a championship with a bench that was worse than Milton, Burks, Thybulle, Scott.
Don't be distracted by other things, the 76ers should be looking to get back to a team like last season. Harris is a good piece that isn't worth $30m but he was part of the successful team in 2019.
Use J-Rich and Horford to get pieces equivalent to Jimmy and Redick in the roles they played. You aren't going to get a player as good Jimmy Butler with these pieces but you just have to fulfil the role. I believe that role was a 2-way player that can score in the half-court. CP3 is equivalent and may actually be a better fit. Furthermore, Seth Curry is a Redick equivalent but younger and more durable.
The goal should be this through a 3-way trade. Or it should be another trade that gets you something similar.
I was listening to a podcast, but I can’t remember which one suggested the trade, but they said it might be:
Chris Paul for Hortford, Scott expiring, Thybulle, Shake, and a some picks. At this point, Donovan was still their coach and they said he may like having Horford’s leadership.
I was pumped about a Paul trade for Hortford, Richardson, and Scott. I thought it ultimately helps Thunder in the overall financial picture as they head for a rebuild. Now there are rumors of Bucks and other teams interested. At this point, I’m not sure how much I want to give up for a 35 year old with some injury history.
Unless you believe Paul makes us a legit contender, why waste solid pieces like Thybulle, Shake, and a first.
zimpy27 wrote:sixers hoops wrote:zimpy27 wrote:Yes, mistakes were made.
But a team with Harris, Simmons, Embiid was a whisker away from a championship with a bench that was worse than Milton, Burks, Thybulle, Scott.
Don't be distracted by other things, the 76ers should be looking to get back to a team like last season. Harris is a good piece that isn't worth $30m but he was part of the successful team in 2019.
Use J-Rich and Horford to get pieces equivalent to Jimmy and Redick in the roles they played. You aren't going to get a player as good Jimmy Butler with these pieces but you just have to fulfil the role. I believe that role was a 2-way player that can score in the half-court. CP3 is equivalent and may actually be a better fit. Furthermore, Seth Curry is a Redick equivalent but younger and more durable.
The goal should be this through a 3-way trade. Or it should be another trade that gets you something similar.
I was listening to a podcast, but I can’t remember which one suggested the trade, but they said it might be:
Chris Paul for Hortford, Scott expiring, Thybulle, Shake, and a some picks. At this point, Donovan was still their coach and they said he may like having Horford’s leadership.
I was pumped about a Paul trade for Hortford, Richardson, and Scott. I thought it ultimately helps Thunder in the overall financial picture as they head for a rebuild. Now there are rumors of Bucks and other teams interested. At this point, I’m not sure how much I want to give up for a 35 year old with some injury history.
Unless you believe Paul makes us a legit contender, why waste solid pieces like Thybulle, Shake, and a first.
You can only judge someone on their last season. CP3 of last season would make sixers a championship favourite.
stormi wrote:twix2500 wrote:stormi wrote:
What do you mean by this?
I don't think the value lines up personally. Kennard while intriguing, is damaged goods. Love is on a humongous contract like Harris. Snell is FA fodder. Giving up Thybulle skews the value against Philadelphia, we brought in another 'big' and Horford is still floating around without a place on the roster.
I do like the value of Love and see the fit between him- Joel and Ben, I like more than others but #HorfOut has to be priority #1.
I like Thybulle, but he is just a role player. Treat him as such. Role players are replacable and they come and go. When you are trying
to be contenders you can't be overvaluing role players. Can't be acting like Knick fans who wanted to hold up the franchise for Iman Shumpert.
You are not getting a budding star for Harris or Horford. Horford age is not gonna net a quality return. Can't imagine a team giving the 76ers cap relief for just the rights to Horford alone. Likely need attach a player or draft pick. Harris has been terrible as a 76ers. Love contract is less and shorter than Harris. So there are some financial gain.
OKC wanted a lot for Chris Paul. They wanted multiple young players and cap relief. Plus getting Paul is taking the ball completely out of Simmons hands. He's too ball dominant.
I agree that an additional ball handler is needed (not a dominant one), that is why I think Kennard is a great fit. He brings shooting, ball handling, off the ball movement and good passer without being ball dominant.
What do you mean Kennard is damage goods? Does he have a chronic injury?
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I've never given my evaluation on Thybulle, but whether he's a perennial role player or not doesn't change his value internally to the Sixers or as a trade asset. You need good roleplayers to compete, you need versatile and switchable defenders with length, you need 3 point shooting. He checks a lot of important boxes; just like Shumpert did to help the Cavs win in 2016. He's cost controlled on a team in a financial crisis, and in the mold of a young archetypal 3&D wing which we need more of, not less. He's not being moved for Kevin Love who doesn't have positive trade value himself. His contract is also amongst the worst in the league.
The trade you proposed is a lateral move at best and we still don't address our biggest needs. I don't know where the 'Sixers don't want dominant ballhandlers' narrative that you're pushing is coming from? We desperately need more. We don't currently have any in a playoff half court setting. Kennard, Love, Snell etc type players are welcome on my team. Not for what we're giving up. I'd move Horford for Love. I'd move Scott+Smith for Kennard and such deals. If Thybulle must be moved, it's for a Chris Paul esque deal.
KL78192020 wrote:Should do Horford for Gordon/Covington
No man the 76ers traded for a star and improved and Timberwolves got worse because they value a star equal to replacable role players. Because stars are extremely more valuable than role players. 76ers were one bounce away from likely winning a title because they valued a star over 2 role players. Then the 76ers let a star walk and paid more for role players than the star and got extremely worse. In addition to the role players do not fit the needs of Simmons and Embiid.stormi wrote:Actually undervaluing cheap assets is exactly how the Sixers got into the shambles they're in now. Covington, Shamet, Saric, Grant, Holmes, TLC + picks that were forwarded for actual stars moved for peanuts. And now you want that trend to continue for... Kevin Love. I don't see the value in that deal. I'm not moving Thybulle unless it's for a ballhandler. Simple enough.
twix2500 wrote:No man the 76ers traded for a star and improved and Timberwolves got worse because they value a star equal to replacable role players. Because stars are extremely more valuable than role players. 76ers were one bounce away from like winning a title because they valued a star over 2 role players. Then the 76ers let a star walk and paid more for role player than the star and got extremely worse.stormi wrote:Actually undervaluing cheap assets is exactly how the Sixers got into the shambles they're in now. Covington, Shamet, Saric, Grant, Holmes, TLC + picks that were forwarded for actual stars moved for peanuts. And now you want that trend to continue for... Kevin Love. I don't see the value in that deal. I'm not moving Thybulle unless it's for a ballhandler. Simple enough.
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Jimmy is not a dominant ball handler. Jimmy is a player who is a good ballhandler handler but doesn't dominant the ball. He scores in variety of ways. That is why you need another ball handler with Jimmy the same with Leonard. Harden, Lebron James and Chris Paul are dominant ballhandlers. Simmons is a dominant ballhandler. Paul and Harden bickered about who should be handling the ball when they played together. Getting Paul is forcing Simmons to play the weakest part of his game, off the ball.stormi wrote:twix2500 wrote:No man the 76ers traded for a star and improved and Timberwolves got worse because they value a star equal to replacable role players. Because stars are extremely more valuable than role players. 76ers were one bounce away from like winning a title because they valued a star over 2 role players. Then the 76ers let a star walk and paid more for role player than the star and got extremely worse.stormi wrote:Actually undervaluing cheap assets is exactly how the Sixers got into the shambles they're in now. Covington, Shamet, Saric, Grant, Holmes, TLC + picks that were forwarded for actual stars moved for peanuts. And now you want that trend to continue for... Kevin Love. I don't see the value in that deal. I'm not moving Thybulle unless it's for a ballhandler. Simple enough.
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You're bouncing all over the place. You don't want the Sixers to acquire another dominant ballhandler, but you also acknowledge how good the 2019 Sixers were with another ballhandler on the roster... in Jimmy Butler
Then you're talking about star acquisition, but your trade premise is centered on 35 year old Kevin Love and Tony Snell.
I like your ideas, I don't like your value. That's where I pass.
twix2500 wrote:Jimmy is not a dominant ball handler. Jimmy is a player who is a good ballhandler handler but doesn't dominant the ball. He scores in variety of ways. That is why you need another ball handler with Jimmy the same with Leonard. Harden, Lebron James and Chris Paul are dominant ballhandlers. Simmons is a dominant ballhandler. Paul and Harden bickered about who should be handling the ball when they played together. Getting Paul is forcing Simmons to play the weakest part of his game, off the ball.stormi wrote:twix2500 wrote:No man the 76ers traded for a star and improved and Timberwolves got worse because they value a star equal to replacable role players. Because stars are extremely more valuable than role players. 76ers were one bounce away from like winning a title because they valued a star over 2 role players. Then the 76ers let a star walk and paid more for role player than the star and got extremely worse.
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You're bouncing all over the place. You don't want the Sixers to acquire another dominant ballhandler, but you also acknowledge how good the 2019 Sixers were with another ballhandler on the roster... in Jimmy Butler
Then you're talking about star acquisition, but your trade premise is centered on 35 year old Kevin Love and Tony Snell.
I like your ideas, I don't like your value. That's where I pass.
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stormi wrote:twix2500 wrote:Jimmy is not a dominant ball handler. Jimmy is a player who is a good ballhandler handler but doesn't dominant the ball. He scores in variety of ways. That is why you need another ball handler with Jimmy the same with Leonard. Harden, Lebron James and Chris Paul are dominant ballhandlers. Simmons is a dominant ballhandler. Paul and Harden bickered about who should be handling the ball when they played together. Getting Paul is forcing Simmons to play the weakest part of his game, off the ball.stormi wrote:
You're bouncing all over the place. You don't want the Sixers to acquire another dominant ballhandler, but you also acknowledge how good the 2019 Sixers were with another ballhandler on the roster... in Jimmy Butler
Then you're talking about star acquisition, but your trade premise is centered on 35 year old Kevin Love and Tony Snell.
I like your ideas, I don't like your value. That's where I pass.
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I think you don't watch the Sixers enough honestly. Simmons played a majority of his minutes off ball in the clutch last year and him and Butler were around equal usage rates in the playoffs. He's like a super soldier Draymond off ball.
A lob threat, great on boxing out and grabbing Orebs, put backs and finishing around the rim. He's probably one of the best in the league at it actually. Championship offenses win because of diversity and unpredictability. You need to have multiple shot creators and players that can cut into playoff caliber defenses from every level of the floor. Having Butler on the floor with Ben, Redick and Embiid allowed them to enter different sets and attack mismatches with different players coming up the court with the ball. Kevin Love doesn't provide that. Tobias Harris doesn't provide that. Chris Paul has provided that for many years in the past, and this current year. We need someone like that. Acquiring Kennard and Love puts us back at 2018 Sixers. The offense will be much more flowing than this year for sure, but that main onball threat is mia. Get me Kennard, Love and Paul. Hit the trade finder and make it work.
twix2500 wrote:stormi wrote:twix2500 wrote:Jimmy is not a dominant ball handler. Jimmy is a player who is a good ballhandler handler but doesn't dominant the ball. He scores in variety of ways. That is why you need another ball handler with Jimmy the same with Leonard. Harden, Lebron James and Chris Paul are dominant ballhandlers. Simmons is a dominant ballhandler. Paul and Harden bickered about who should be handling the ball when they played together. Getting Paul is forcing Simmons to play the weakest part of his game, off the ball.
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I think you don't watch the Sixers enough honestly. Simmons played a majority of his minutes off ball in the clutch last year and him and Butler were around equal usage rates in the playoffs. He's like a super soldier Draymond off ball.
A lob threat, great on boxing out and grabbing Orebs, put backs and finishing around the rim. He's probably one of the best in the league at it actually. Championship offenses win because of diversity and unpredictability. You need to have multiple shot creators and players that can cut into playoff caliber defenses from every level of the floor. Having Butler on the floor with Ben, Redick and Embiid allowed them to enter different sets and attack mismatches with different players coming up the court with the ball. Kevin Love doesn't provide that. Tobias Harris doesn't provide that. Chris Paul has provided that for many years in the past, and this current year. We need someone like that. Acquiring Kennard and Love puts us back at 2018 Sixers. The offense will be much more flowing than this year for sure, but that main onball threat is mia. Get me Kennard, Love and Paul. Hit the trade finder and make it work.
No man, Simmons was the primary ball handler during the regular season. He struggle in the playoffs and then that's when Jimmy took the primary role as ballhandler because Simmons was struggling. CMon, man. Simmons didn't flourish by playing off the ball when Jimmy took the responsibility. If Simmons flourish in that role they would have easily beaten the Raptors.
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stormi wrote:twix2500 wrote:stormi wrote:
I think you don't watch the Sixers enough honestly. Simmons played a majority of his minutes off ball in the clutch last year and him and Butler were around equal usage rates in the playoffs. He's like a super soldier Draymond off ball.
A lob threat, great on boxing out and grabbing Orebs, put backs and finishing around the rim. He's probably one of the best in the league at it actually. Championship offenses win because of diversity and unpredictability. You need to have multiple shot creators and players that can cut into playoff caliber defenses from every level of the floor. Having Butler on the floor with Ben, Redick and Embiid allowed them to enter different sets and attack mismatches with different players coming up the court with the ball. Kevin Love doesn't provide that. Tobias Harris doesn't provide that. Chris Paul has provided that for many years in the past, and this current year. We need someone like that. Acquiring Kennard and Love puts us back at 2018 Sixers. The offense will be much more flowing than this year for sure, but that main onball threat is mia. Get me Kennard, Love and Paul. Hit the trade finder and make it work.
No man, Simmons was the primary ball handler during the regular season. He struggle in the playoffs and then that's when Jimmy took the primary role as ballhandler because Simmons was struggling. CMon, man. Simmons didn't flourish by playing off the ball when Jimmy took the responsibility. If Simmons flourish in that role they would have easily beaten the Raptors.
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Oh right, I must have forgotten about the multiple.. offball gamewinners Jimmy hit in his short regular season tenure in Philadelphia.
twix2500 wrote:stormi wrote:twix2500 wrote:
No man, Simmons was the primary ball handler during the regular season. He struggle in the playoffs and then that's when Jimmy took the primary role as ballhandler because Simmons was struggling. CMon, man. Simmons didn't flourish by playing off the ball when Jimmy took the responsibility. If Simmons flourish in that role they would have easily beaten the Raptors.
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Oh right, I must have forgotten about the multiple.. offball gamewinners Jimmy hit in his short regular season tenure in Philadelphia.
What does end of game shots have to do with being the primary dominant ball handler?
?s=19stormi wrote:twix2500 wrote:stormi wrote:
Oh right, I must have forgotten about the multiple.. offball gamewinners Jimmy hit in his short regular season tenure in Philadelphia.
What does end of game shots have to do with being the primary dominant ball handler?
You continue to incorrectly say that some transformational underperforming playoffs resulted in Ben losing ballhandling privileges when it'd been happening all regular season. Jimmy and Ben shared ballhandling duties and Jimmy was quite often the point guard in late game situations. Ben isn't currently a three level scorer, thus he can't be relied on at the moment to win the game for you down 2 or 3 points and it'd be premature to create a future roster making that assumption when that negligence sunk the current Sixers team that exists today. Also, you can have more than one ballhandler in the lineup. Also, Ben is great offball. Also, he pretty much won the Sixers game 6 against the Raptors with a strong 20 point triple double.
You're wasting keystrokes misremembering or flat out just not knowing things about a basketball team you don't watch very often, or at all. There's a reason most Sixers fans feel a certain way and you're confused about it. Go back and watch some film. But anyways, I'm not moving Thybulle for Love, or adding another big with Horford still on the roster still toiling. thx
twix2500 wrote:?s=19stormi wrote:twix2500 wrote:
What does end of game shots have to do with being the primary dominant ball handler?
You continue to incorrectly say that some transformational underperforming playoffs resulted in Ben losing ballhandling privileges when it'd been happening all regular season. Jimmy and Ben shared ballhandling duties and Jimmy was quite often the point guard in late game situations. Ben isn't currently a three level scorer, thus he can't be relied on at the moment to win the game for you down 2 or 3 points and it'd be premature to create a future roster making that assumption when that negligence sunk the current Sixers team that exists today. Also, you can have more than one ballhandler in the lineup. Also, Ben is great offball. Also, he pretty much won the Sixers game 6 against the Raptors with a strong 20 point triple double.
You're wasting keystrokes misremembering or flat out just not knowing things about a basketball team you don't watch very often, or at all. There's a reason most Sixers fans feel a certain way and you're confused about it. Go back and watch some film. But anyways, I'm not moving Thybulle for Love, or adding another big with Horford still on the roster still toiling. thx
Bro, so me and Jimmy have bad memories? The commentators during that playoffs pointed out the exact same thing.
Cmon fam!
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So Jimmy and everyone is lying. Ok I gotchastormi wrote:twix2500 wrote:?s=19stormi wrote:
You continue to incorrectly say that some transformational underperforming playoffs resulted in Ben losing ballhandling privileges when it'd been happening all regular season. Jimmy and Ben shared ballhandling duties and Jimmy was quite often the point guard in late game situations. Ben isn't currently a three level scorer, thus he can't be relied on at the moment to win the game for you down 2 or 3 points and it'd be premature to create a future roster making that assumption when that negligence sunk the current Sixers team that exists today. Also, you can have more than one ballhandler in the lineup. Also, Ben is great offball. Also, he pretty much won the Sixers game 6 against the Raptors with a strong 20 point triple double.
You're wasting keystrokes misremembering or flat out just not knowing things about a basketball team you don't watch very often, or at all. There's a reason most Sixers fans feel a certain way and you're confused about it. Go back and watch some film. But anyways, I'm not moving Thybulle for Love, or adding another big with Horford still on the roster still toiling. thx
Bro, so me and Jimmy have bad memories? The commentators during that playoffs pointed out the exact same thing.
Cmon fam!
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https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/butleji01.html
Jimmy's usage rate in the regular season, 22.1%, in the playoffs 22.9%.