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Offseason plan : Fixing this mess

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Re: Offseason plan : Fixing this mess 

Post#741 » by stormi » Sun Sep 13, 2020 12:39 pm

twix2500 wrote:
stormi wrote:
twix2500 wrote:
Read on Twitter
?s=19

Bro, so me and Jimmy have bad memories? The commentators during that playoffs pointed out the exact same thing.

Cmon fam!

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https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/butleji01.html

Jimmy's usage rate in the regular season, 22.1%, in the playoffs 22.9%.
So Jimmy and everyone is lying. Ok I gotcha

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I mean the numbers are right there for you to look at, go under Advanced and then Playoff Advanced. If anything, his usage rate has skyrocketed since he went to Miami. The quote seems more like a jab at Brett Brown who he notably feuded with, but also a reassurance to Ben Simmons who he wanted to come back and play with.
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Re: Offseason plan : Fixing this mess 

Post#742 » by twix2500 » Sun Sep 13, 2020 12:47 pm

stormi wrote:
twix2500 wrote:
stormi wrote:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/butleji01.html

Jimmy's usage rate in the regular season, 22.1%, in the playoffs 22.9%.
So Jimmy and everyone is lying. Ok I gotcha

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I mean the numbers are right there for you to look at, go under Advanced and then Playoff Advanced. The quote seems more like a jab at Brett Brown who he notably feuded with, but more importantly a reassurance to Ben Simmons who he wanted to come back and play with.


Fam, in the same interview JJ Riddick pointed it out and it was known discussion among the players and coaches.

Just for note usage rate is based on field goal attempts plus free throws plus total minutes played. Not how long you dribble the ball.

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Re: Offseason plan : Fixing this mess 

Post#743 » by stormi » Sun Sep 13, 2020 12:53 pm

twix2500 wrote:
stormi wrote:
twix2500 wrote:So Jimmy and everyone is lying. Ok I gotcha

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I mean the numbers are right there for you to look at, go under Advanced and then Playoff Advanced. The quote seems more like a jab at Brett Brown who he notably feuded with, but more importantly a reassurance to Ben Simmons who he wanted to come back and play with.


Fam, in the same interview JJ Riddick pointed it out and it was known discussion among the players and coaches.

Just for note usage rate is based on field goal attempts plus free throws plus total minutes played. Not how long you dribble the ball.

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It's an calculation that paints a picture on how often the ball runs through a player while they're on the floor due to their cumulative actions. And I see your quote, but it's not something that I can recall happening (Ben forcefully having the ball pried from his hands for Jimmy Butler due to poor playoff play) or see in the statistics. Readjust your narratives?
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Re: Offseason plan : Fixing this mess 

Post#744 » by twix2500 » Sun Sep 13, 2020 1:16 pm

stormi wrote:
twix2500 wrote:
stormi wrote:
I mean the numbers are right there for you to look at, go under Advanced and then Playoff Advanced. The quote seems more like a jab at Brett Brown who he notably feuded with, but more importantly a reassurance to Ben Simmons who he wanted to come back and play with.


Fam, in the same interview JJ Riddick pointed it out and it was known discussion among the players and coaches.

Just for note usage rate is based on field goal attempts plus free throws plus total minutes played. Not how long you dribble the ball.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


It's an calculation that paints a picture on how often the ball runs through a player while they're on the floor. And I see your quote, but it's not something that I can recall happening (Ben playing horribly and having the ball pried from his hands for Jimmy Butler - it was just the natural flow of the regular season clutch time offense) or see in the statistics. Readjust your narratives.


Brother storm. How can I see it how you seen it, if you are using stats that do not have anything to do with dribbling? How can I adjust my narrative when players on the team stating the exact same thing as me?

In my humble opinion getting Chris Paul, then Simmons is just gonna be an overpaid Draymond Green. That will make the 3rd overpaid player on the roster. Four players being paid like stars but three are just role players that do not complement anyone on the roster. I just think you got to try and get the most out of Simmons since the 76ers paid him that much money, regardless if it fails or succeeds. Cant make that type of money commitment and not be committed to the player on the court.

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Re: Offseason plan : Fixing this mess 

Post#745 » by youngcrev » Sun Sep 13, 2020 1:42 pm

stormi wrote:
twix2500 wrote:
stormi wrote:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/butleji01.html

Jimmy's usage rate in the regular season, 22.1%, in the playoffs 22.9%.
So Jimmy and everyone is lying. Ok I gotcha

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


I mean the numbers are right there for you to look at, go under Advanced and then Playoff Advanced. If anything, his usage rate has skyrocketed since he went to Miami. The quote seems more like a jab at Brett Brown who he notably feuded with, but also a reassurance to Ben Simmons who he wanted to come back and play with.


That's total playoffs rather than specifically the Raptors series, where Jimmy absolutely had more control of the ball.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2019-nba-eastern-conference-semifinals-76ers-vs-raptors.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2019-nba-eastern-conference-first-round-nets-vs-76ers.html

Jimmy's usage went from 19.8% vs the Nets to
25.6% vs the Raptors

Ben went from 19.4% to 14.9%

The numbers bear out what we all saw. They took the ball our of Ben's hands in that Toronto series and put it in Jimmy's. I'm not really even sure what's arguable here
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Re: Offseason plan : Fixing this mess 

Post#746 » by skulky » Sun Sep 13, 2020 1:46 pm

stormi wrote:
twix2500 wrote:
stormi wrote:
I mean the numbers are right there for you to look at, go under Advanced and then Playoff Advanced. The quote seems more like a jab at Brett Brown who he notably feuded with, but more importantly a reassurance to Ben Simmons who he wanted to come back and play with.


Fam, in the same interview JJ Riddick pointed it out and it was known discussion among the players and coaches.

Just for note usage rate is based on field goal attempts plus free throws plus total minutes played. Not how long you dribble the ball.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


It's an calculation that paints a picture on how often the ball runs through a player while they're on the floor due to their cumulative actions. And I see your quote, but it's not something that I can recall happening (Ben forcefully having the ball pried from his hands for Jimmy Butler due to poor playoff play) or see in the statistics. Readjust your narratives?

One of the big adjustments in the Toronto series was having jimmy initiate. Ben has always really struggled handling the ball around Kawhi, not quite Ben mclemore level, but Kawhi really disrupts him.
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Re: Offseason plan : Fixing this mess 

Post#747 » by the_process » Sun Sep 13, 2020 2:41 pm

twix2500 wrote:
stormi wrote:
twix2500 wrote:No man the 76ers traded for a star and improved and Timberwolves got worse because they value a star equal to replacable role players. Because stars are extremely more valuable than role players. 76ers were one bounce away from like winning a title because they valued a star over 2 role players. Then the 76ers let a star walk and paid more for role player than the star and got extremely worse.

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You're bouncing all over the place. You don't want the Sixers to acquire another dominant ballhandler, but you also acknowledge how good the 2019 Sixers were with another ballhandler on the roster... in Jimmy Butler

Then you're talking about star acquisition, but your trade premise is centered on 35 year old Kevin Love and Tony Snell.

I like your ideas, I don't like your value. That's where I pass.
Jimmy is not a dominant ball handler. Jimmy is a player who is a good ballhandler handler but doesn't dominant the ball. He scores in variety of ways. That is why you need another ball handler with Jimmy the same with Leonard. Harden, Lebron James and Chris Paul are dominant ballhandlers. Simmons is a dominant ballhandler. Paul and Harden bickered about who should be handling the ball when they played together. Getting Paul is forcing Simmons to play the weakest part of his game, off the ball.

I'm substituting a role player who does not fit in Harris for role players who do fit in Love, Snell and Kennard.

OKC has a very good GM, he is not trading Paul for role players. They want draft picks and cap relief.

If Simmons is not used as a dominant ballhandler then you are making his game suffer. Might as well trade him for Paul.

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OKC is not getting both expirings and picks for a 35 year old PG owed 86M over the next two years and with whom Presti clearly has an agreement with to trade to a contender.

Love and Kennard’s shooting does not cure the problems with the Sixers. They cause as many problems as they solve.

Simmons cannot have the ball in the half court in the playoffs if he will not shoot. Hence he has to be a PF and they need to find other ways for him to be effective. And they need to find an actual ball handler/initiator/distributor.
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Re: Offseason plan : Fixing this mess 

Post#748 » by twix2500 » Sun Sep 13, 2020 3:10 pm

the_process wrote:
twix2500 wrote:
stormi wrote:
You're bouncing all over the place. You don't want the Sixers to acquire another dominant ballhandler, but you also acknowledge how good the 2019 Sixers were with another ballhandler on the roster... in Jimmy Butler

Then you're talking about star acquisition, but your trade premise is centered on 35 year old Kevin Love and Tony Snell.

I like your ideas, I don't like your value. That's where I pass.
Jimmy is not a dominant ball handler. Jimmy is a player who is a good ballhandler handler but doesn't dominant the ball. He scores in variety of ways. That is why you need another ball handler with Jimmy the same with Leonard. Harden, Lebron James and Chris Paul are dominant ballhandlers. Simmons is a dominant ballhandler. Paul and Harden bickered about who should be handling the ball when they played together. Getting Paul is forcing Simmons to play the weakest part of his game, off the ball.

I'm substituting a role player who does not fit in Harris for role players who do fit in Love, Snell and Kennard.

OKC has a very good GM, he is not trading Paul for role players. They want draft picks and cap relief.

If Simmons is not used as a dominant ballhandler then you are making his game suffer. Might as well trade him for Paul.

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OKC is not getting both expirings and picks for a 35 year old PG owed 86M over the next two years and with whom Presti clearly has an agreement with to trade to a contender.

Love and Kennard’s shooting does not cure the problems with the Sixers. They cause as many problems as they solve.

Simmons cannot have the ball in the half court in the playoffs if he will not shoot. Hence he has to be a PF and they need to find other ways for him to be effective. And they need to find an actual ball handler/initiator/distributor.


Doesn't matter what position he plays. He has to shoot. That is something you can not work around. The team has to pressure him or move him. That is something you cannot just accept. If the organization can't get him to shoot maybe another organization can. 30 plus mill per and will not shoot is unacceptable and not adjustable.

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Re: Offseason plan : Fixing this mess 

Post#749 » by youngcrev » Sun Sep 13, 2020 3:21 pm

Ben has to be willing to shoot just so that we can run normal offense when he's off ball, but I think the key to make him an effective half court player is going to be developing him as a roll man and getting some guys to run DHOs off of him... Both requiring actual perimeter players on the roster rather than surrounding him and Jo with a bunch of big men.
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Re: Offseason plan : Fixing this mess 

Post#750 » by the_process » Sun Sep 13, 2020 3:31 pm

twix2500 wrote:
the_process wrote:
twix2500 wrote:Jimmy is not a dominant ball handler. Jimmy is a player who is a good ballhandler handler but doesn't dominant the ball. He scores in variety of ways. That is why you need another ball handler with Jimmy the same with Leonard. Harden, Lebron James and Chris Paul are dominant ballhandlers. Simmons is a dominant ballhandler. Paul and Harden bickered about who should be handling the ball when they played together. Getting Paul is forcing Simmons to play the weakest part of his game, off the ball.

I'm substituting a role player who does not fit in Harris for role players who do fit in Love, Snell and Kennard.

OKC has a very good GM, he is not trading Paul for role players. They want draft picks and cap relief.

If Simmons is not used as a dominant ballhandler then you are making his game suffer. Might as well trade him for Paul.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


OKC is not getting both expirings and picks for a 35 year old PG owed 86M over the next two years and with whom Presti clearly has an agreement with to trade to a contender.

Love and Kennard’s shooting does not cure the problems with the Sixers. They cause as many problems as they solve.

Simmons cannot have the ball in the half court in the playoffs if he will not shoot. Hence he has to be a PF and they need to find other ways for him to be effective. And they need to find an actual ball handler/initiator/distributor.


Doesn't matter what position he plays. He has to shoot. That is something you can not work around. The team has to pressure him or move him. That is something you cannot just accept. If the organization can't get him to shoot maybe another organization can. 30 plus mill per and will not shoot is unacceptable and not adjustable.

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And moving him is a possibility. Just not yet. In the meantime, have to try different ways to make him and the rest of the team effective and efficient.
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Re: Offseason plan : Fixing this mess 

Post#751 » by HankTheTank » Sun Sep 13, 2020 3:48 pm

Woj tweeted Gupta among candidates interviewing in Sacramento. Not worried, Elton’s got this :lol:
*GENIUS*
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Re: Offseason plan : Fixing this mess 

Post#752 » by stormi » Sun Sep 13, 2020 7:22 pm

youngcrev wrote:
stormi wrote:
twix2500 wrote:So Jimmy and everyone is lying. Ok I gotcha

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


I mean the numbers are right there for you to look at, go under Advanced and then Playoff Advanced. If anything, his usage rate has skyrocketed since he went to Miami. The quote seems more like a jab at Brett Brown who he notably feuded with, but also a reassurance to Ben Simmons who he wanted to come back and play with.


That's total playoffs rather than specifically the Raptors series, where Jimmy absolutely had more control of the ball.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2019-nba-eastern-conference-semifinals-76ers-vs-raptors.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2019-nba-eastern-conference-first-round-nets-vs-76ers.html

Jimmy's usage went from 19.8% vs the Nets to
25.6% vs the Raptors

Ben went from 19.4% to 14.9%

The numbers bear out what we all saw. They took the ball our of Ben's hands in that Toronto series and put it in Jimmy's. I'm not really even sure what's arguable here


Putting the ball in Jimmy's hands to make a play when it counted was always the Sixers strategy, regular season or playoffs. There were less of those moments against the Nets and more of them against the Raptors. That was the natural course of the offense that could have been predicted from watching literally any Sixers basketball in 2019. More halfcourt sets, more grind it out basketball, more Jimmy ballhandling.
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Re: Offseason plan : Fixing this mess 

Post#753 » by youngcrev » Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:11 pm

stormi wrote:
youngcrev wrote:
stormi wrote:
I mean the numbers are right there for you to look at, go under Advanced and then Playoff Advanced. If anything, his usage rate has skyrocketed since he went to Miami. The quote seems more like a jab at Brett Brown who he notably feuded with, but also a reassurance to Ben Simmons who he wanted to come back and play with.


That's total playoffs rather than specifically the Raptors series, where Jimmy absolutely had more control of the ball.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2019-nba-eastern-conference-semifinals-76ers-vs-raptors.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2019-nba-eastern-conference-first-round-nets-vs-76ers.html

Jimmy's usage went from 19.8% vs the Nets to
25.6% vs the Raptors

Ben went from 19.4% to 14.9%

The numbers bear out what we all saw. They took the ball our of Ben's hands in that Toronto series and put it in Jimmy's. I'm not really even sure what's arguable here


Putting the ball in Jimmy's hands to make a play when it counted was always the Sixers strategy, regular season or playoffs. There were less of those moments against the Nets and more of them against the Raptors. That was the natural course of the offense that could have been predicted from watching literally any Sixers basketball in 2019. More halfcourt sets, more grind it out basketball, more Jimmy ballhandling.


:lol:
That took some serious gymnastics after doubling down on the whole usage thing and the numbers being right there for you to see.

The team made a major adjustment to the offense after losing game 1 and basically have Jimmy the keys to the offense. That's a lot different the relying on a guy as your closer during the season. There's no way that was the plan the whole year.
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Re: Offseason plan : Fixing this mess 

Post#754 » by stormi » Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:14 pm

youngcrev wrote:
stormi wrote:
youngcrev wrote:
That's total playoffs rather than specifically the Raptors series, where Jimmy absolutely had more control of the ball.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2019-nba-eastern-conference-semifinals-76ers-vs-raptors.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2019-nba-eastern-conference-first-round-nets-vs-76ers.html

Jimmy's usage went from 19.8% vs the Nets to
25.6% vs the Raptors

Ben went from 19.4% to 14.9%

The numbers bear out what we all saw. They took the ball our of Ben's hands in that Toronto series and put it in Jimmy's. I'm not really even sure what's arguable here


Putting the ball in Jimmy's hands to make a play when it counted was always the Sixers strategy, regular season or playoffs. There were less of those moments against the Nets and more of them against the Raptors. That was the natural course of the offense that could have been predicted from watching literally any Sixers basketball in 2019. More halfcourt sets, more grind it out basketball, more Jimmy ballhandling.


:lol:
That took some serious gymnastics after doubling down on the whole usage thing and the numbers being right there for you to see.

The team made a major adjustment to the offense after losing game 1 and basically have Jimmy the keys to the offense. That's a lot different the relying on a guy as your closer during the season. There's no way that was the plan the whole year.


Jimmy wasn't in charge of handling the ball late game all season long? Why are we being hardheaded here, we always deferred to Jimmy. Not to Tobias or Joel. This wasn't a Ben thing, this was just simply a, 'who's most reliable and skilled ballhandler in the halfcourt? put the ball in his hands'. The playoffs are an extension of late game scenarios but repeated much more frequently over the course of one singular game. You're much more desperate to get a bucket and you face more intensive defenses.

Just like how Ben's usage rate dropped (5%) Embiid's usage rate plummeted nearly 12%.. But y'all will say anything to slander Ben lmfaooo.
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Re: Offseason plan : Fixing this mess 

Post#755 » by youngcrev » Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:49 pm

stormi wrote:
youngcrev wrote:
stormi wrote:
Putting the ball in Jimmy's hands to make a play when it counted was always the Sixers strategy, regular season or playoffs. There were less of those moments against the Nets and more of them against the Raptors. That was the natural course of the offense that could have been predicted from watching literally any Sixers basketball in 2019. More halfcourt sets, more grind it out basketball, more Jimmy ballhandling.


:lol:
That took some serious gymnastics after doubling down on the whole usage thing and the numbers being right there for you to see.

The team made a major adjustment to the offense after losing game 1 and basically have Jimmy the keys to the offense. That's a lot different the relying on a guy as your closer during the season. There's no way that was the plan the whole year.


Jimmy wasn't in charge of handling the ball late game all season long? Why are we being hardheaded here, we always deferred to Jimmy. Not to Tobias or Joel. This wasn't a Ben thing, this was just simply a, 'who's most reliable and skilled ballhandler in the halfcourt? put the ball in his hands'. The playoffs are an extension of late game scenarios but repeated much more frequently over the course of one singular game. You're much more desperate to get a bucket and you face more intensive defenses.

Just like how Ben's usage rate dropped (5%) Embiid's usage rate plummeted nearly 12%.. But y'all will say anything to slander Ben lmfaooo.


I'm not slandering Ben, I don't even know what the original point of contention was. But saying the offense didn't change drastically towards being more Jimmy centric in that Raptors series is just flat out wrong, and using his usage for the entire playoffs vs specifically that series was misleading.

Edit: scrolling back, I was with you up until that point where you started making that specific argument
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Re: Offseason plan : Fixing this mess 

Post#756 » by 76ciology » Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:55 am

The exercise is not to turn back the time but more of finding who is the guy who fits both Biid and Ben that not one of them ending up playing a lesser role that will eventually lead to asking for a trade.

Personally, I think you have to read between the lines because as you can see.. both Jimmy and Jj were very cautious to not throw anyone under the bus. Check Jj’s next podcast after the jimmy interviewed where he went 180 degrees and went for all praise for Brett’s coaching.

If you just consider the fact that Jimmy always wanted to play PG ever since he was with the Bulls, Jimmy wanted more PnRs during their film session (he even used TJ as a fall guy) and Ben’s usage drops when Jimmy got what he wanted, I think that if we continue playing this way this would lead to Ben and his notorious camp’s dissatisfaction. There are even some inside stories from eskin and hayes to back this up.

We have this belief that players will be happy if the team is winning. But we dont consider each and everyone’s situation.

How does it feel like to be on the bench or sacrificing for a lesser role when a new comer gets praised more than you for their stellar play when your team gets a victory?
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Re: Offseason plan : Fixing this mess 

Post#757 » by 76ciology » Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:12 am

Being a star is about image.

What happens when Ben stops playing point guard and just camp below the basket? Imagine his assists numbers dropping and a slight drop with his points per game.

Imagine if he takes 3s and shoots them horribly (backed up by his ft%). He’ll basically be like a 6’9” and way less aggressive version of westbrook for the Rox in that Lakers series.

This is just a constructive criticism.

If he wants to be a star he should look to not just make improvement but rather make a jump in his trajectory. Or else we should explore letting a more capable PG run the show and he’ll be 6’9” version of DeAndre Jordan.
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Re: Offseason plan : Fixing this mess 

Post#758 » by twix2500 » Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:55 am

the_process wrote:
twix2500 wrote:
the_process wrote:
OKC is not getting both expirings and picks for a 35 year old PG owed 86M over the next two years and with whom Presti clearly has an agreement with to trade to a contender.

Love and Kennard’s shooting does not cure the problems with the Sixers. They cause as many problems as they solve.

Simmons cannot have the ball in the half court in the playoffs if he will not shoot. Hence he has to be a PF and they need to find other ways for him to be effective. And they need to find an actual ball handler/initiator/distributor.


Doesn't matter what position he plays. He has to shoot. That is something you can not work around. The team has to pressure him or move him. That is something you cannot just accept. If the organization can't get him to shoot maybe another organization can. 30 plus mill per and will not shoot is unacceptable and not adjustable.

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And moving him is a possibility. Just not yet. In the meantime, have to try different ways to make him and the rest of the team effective and efficient.
I get you want the team in general to be successful. But in all honesty, its gonna be a disappointment no matter what if the 76ers do not at least be in the finals. Those expectations are because of Embiid and Simmons. Its no ones goal just to better than last year. Because of their salaries, you can't put Simmons or Embiid to the side for another player to carry the star load. Its should be either the 76ers fail with the ball in Simmons and Embiid hands or remove them, because a third 30 million dollar player will not overcome 30 mill dollars of Simmons being used like birdman. Gotta let them live and learn, the team has committed to NBA finals money.

I agree its not the time to move on from either player but it is time to give them a chance to prove it.

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Re: Offseason plan : Fixing this mess 

Post#759 » by Toby_White » Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:35 pm

stormi wrote:Actually undervaluing cheap assets is exactly how the Sixers got into the shambles they're in now. Covington, Shamet, Saric, Grant, Holmes, TLC + picks that were forwarded for actual stars moved for peanuts. And now you want that trend to continue for... Kevin Love. I don't see the value in that deal. I'm not moving Thybulle unless it's for a ballhandler. Simple enough.


Word! We are drafting pretty well in the late 1st and early 2nd round, just to lose all these young guys on cheap contracts because our front office has been a total **** since Hinkie!

Matisse & Shake, are two very interesting young players, that will eventually play a big role for this team. You got one knockdown spotup shooter with potential to become better on ball and one of the best defensive prospects in the whole league! If Matisse starts hitting his shots, his value will rise like crazy!

Thybulle: $2,711,280 $2,840,160 $4,379,526 $6,275,861
Shake: $1,701,593 $1,846,738 $1,997,718

We cant lose these guys, to get Luke Kennard and Kevin Love.
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Re: Offseason plan : Fixing this mess 

Post#760 » by elchengue20 » Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:08 pm

Yeah, trading Thybulle for someone like Kevin Love is beyond stupid and the last thing we need right now.

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