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Fantasy Trade Thread: 2020 Offseason

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Re: Fantasy Trade Thread: 2020 Offseason 

Post#1741 » by davesilver » Tue Apr 27, 2021 2:29 pm

76ciology wrote:Maybe you guys are right. Im staying open minded.

But I just can’t see Blazers breaking up the CJ-Dame duo for Tobias. If Blazers can get Kawhi, maybe. But definitely not for Tobias.

CJ-Dame duo is not perfect. Yes, its a double edged sword but its been proven that it’s positives outweigh its negatives. It has been successful and a lot of teams are copying their blueprint.

Because this kind of set-up gives you optimal offense in today’s NBA where you have superior perimeter scoring, superior spacing and dual playmakers who can breakdown the defense on either the strong and weak side of the court.

This kind of set-up also allows you to play “moneyball” on other positions where you can just simply get 3&D wings and dime a dozen defensive bigs. Then you can just run 1-4 or 1-5 PnR on both sides on offense. Another team that is doing great with this set-up is the Jazz.

No, I dont see the Blazers giving up CJ for Tobi, even if we add a couple of first rounders.

Tobi is a pressure release valve scorer, like Norman Powell. Third option at best.

CJ is a secondary option scorer. Something both Sixers and Blazers need.

Again, if you think Tobi can replace CJ’s role with the Blazers, then why do we have to trade Tobi for CJ? If you think Norman Powell can replace CJ, then why not go after Norman Powell? I find bias playing its role. But then I might be wrong.


I hear you, but I'd counter that the duo has proven that they cannot have serious postseason success in the west given their defensive faults. Every year Dame gets older, and I think Tobias is the highest value a player like CJ could yield.

They have a shot at a star forward with Tobias. Say what you will, but CJ + Tobias are playing at a very similar level this year. Moreover, their contract situations are practically the same after the extension (same duration, just 5mil more per year for Tobias)

I'd argue that Tobias is a more efficient secondary scorer than CJ in a Portland offense with the gravity that Dame demands.

Ultimately a team with Dame - Tobias has a higher ceiling than Dame - CJ, particularly when Powell has shown he can be an elite SG

Dame - Powell - Roco - Tobias - Nurk is an upgrade

Hill - CJ - Matisse - Ben - Embiid is also an upgrade
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Re: Fantasy Trade Thread: 2020 Offseason 

Post#1742 » by eyeatoma » Tue Apr 27, 2021 2:33 pm

76ciology wrote:Maybe you guys are right. Im staying open minded.

But I just can’t see Blazers breaking up the CJ-Dame duo for Tobias. If Blazers can get Kawhi, maybe. But definitely not for Tobias.

CJ-Dame duo is not perfect. Yes, its a double edged sword but its been proven that it’s positives outweigh its negatives. It has been successful and a lot of teams are copying their blueprint.

Because this kind of set-up gives you optimal offense in today’s NBA where you have superior perimeter scoring, superior spacing and dual playmakers who can breakdown the defense on either the strong and weak side of the court.

This kind of set-up also allows you to play “moneyball” on other positions where you can just simply get 3&D wings and dime a dozen defensive bigs. Then you can just run 1-4 or 1-5 PnR on both sides on offense. Another team that is doing great with this set-up is the Jazz.

No, I dont see the Blazers giving up CJ for Tobi, even if we add a couple of first rounders.

Tobi is a pressure release valve scorer, like Norman Powell. Third option at best. You can’t give the ball to Norman Powell and expect him to breakdown the defense, unlike what you can see with CJ or Dame.

CJ is a secondary option scorer. Something both Sixers and Blazers need.

Again, if you think Tobi can replace CJ’s role with the Blazers, then why do we have to trade Tobi for CJ? If you think Norman Powell can replace CJ, then why not go after Norman Powell? I find bias playing its role. But then I might be wrong.
We should have gone for Powell. Could have kept Harris and Thybulle.

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Re: Fantasy Trade Thread: 2020 Offseason 

Post#1743 » by the_process » Tue Apr 27, 2021 3:14 pm

Tobias for CJ makes too much sense for both teams.
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Re: Fantasy Trade Thread: 2020 Offseason 

Post#1744 » by youngcrev » Tue Apr 27, 2021 3:31 pm

76ciology wrote:CJ-Dame duo is not perfect. Yes, its a double edged sword but its been proven that it’s positives outweigh its negatives. It has been successful and a lot of teams are copying their blueprint.

Because this kind of set-up gives you optimal offense in today’s NBA where you have superior perimeter scoring, superior spacing and dual playmakers who can breakdown the defense on either the strong and weak side of the court.

This kind of set-up also allows you to play “moneyball” on other positions where you can just simply get 3&D wings and dime a dozen defensive bigs. Then you can just run 1-4 or 1-5 PnR on both sides on offense. Another team that is doing great with this set-up is the Jazz.


On the flip side, I'd say that the vast majority of the offensive success they've had is simply that Dame is a HOF level offensive guard. They haven't had much trouble generating offense without CJ, though their defense has continued to struggle because they've put liabilities like Kanter and Melo on the floor. To some extent I'd say CJ's creation is underutilized by playing next to such a vastly superior on ball option, though their offense has been pretty bad in general with CJ led lineups.

I think the set up also puts a ceiling on what they can be defensively, and also limits their options on what other players you can successfully put on the floor. You can say having those two allows you to put such a limited offensive front court on the floor as Jones-Covington-Nurk, but the reverse is also true where it forces you focus that much more on getting defenders out there. And what traded for Cov and paid Jones Jr this summer doesn't really feel like money all to me.

I think a Dame-Harris duo could provide similar offensive output without the same defensive limitations. I don't think CJ's level of on ball creation is all that necessary next to a Dame, and Powell and Harris would be able to pick up the slack there.

On our end, I think CJ is a more capable on ball creator and 3 point shooter than Tobias, filling the greater need with Ben/Jo.
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Re: Fantasy Trade Thread: 2020 Offseason 

Post#1745 » by 76ciology » Tue Apr 27, 2021 3:43 pm

Hear me out so you can view both sides ok. Im speaking from the Blazers’ perspective.

I know Harris is a better defensive player than CJ. But Harris’s defense isn’t going to make-up for what CJ can provide on offense.

If there’s anything, Blazers need more offense. Which Powell can provide as a pressure release valve scorer at SF. Then they kind of push all the defense at the 4-5 positions. This IMO is the best way to build a team.

Have your 1-2 anchor your offense. 3 as a pressure release valve scorer. 4-5 anchor your defense. You can also say that the 73 win Warriors was playing similarly.

I mean you all know i dont hate Tobi. I kind of like him more than most people here. Its just i dont see Tobi being that number 2 guy. As good as Dame is, he needs a number 2 scorer. A guy who can make an extra push or even sometimes play number 1 option when he’s struggling on offense.

Its kind of the same guy we know deep inside that we need for our team. And between CJ and Tobi, only CJ can play that role.

..and im not even sure if CJ can fill that role.
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Re: Fantasy Trade Thread: 2020 Offseason 

Post#1746 » by 76ciology » Tue Apr 27, 2021 3:45 pm

Why not go after Rozier? He’d be cheaper iMO. Hornets may even value the picks you that you can add as sweetener to the deal
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Re: Fantasy Trade Thread: 2020 Offseason 

Post#1747 » by youngcrev » Tue Apr 27, 2021 5:06 pm

I think you're just vastly overstating CJ's offensive impact on that team. He's missed half of this season, and in spite of the crazy numbers he was putting up before the injury, the offense didn't really skip a beat when he was out. Damian Lillard is the reason their offense is as good as it is. The lineup that's played the most minutes for that team does not include CJ, and has a sizzling ORTG of 122.9 with Cov and Jones Jr on the floor.
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Re: Fantasy Trade Thread: 2020 Offseason 

Post#1748 » by 76ciology » Tue Apr 27, 2021 5:36 pm

youngcrev wrote:I think you're just vastly overstating CJ's offensive impact on that team. He's missed half of this season, and in spite of the crazy numbers he was putting up before the injury, the offense didn't really skip a beat when he was out. Damian Lillard is the reason their offense is as good as it is. The lineup that's played the most minutes for that team does not include CJ, and has a sizzling ORTG of 122.9 with Cov and Jones Jr on the floor.


Why not trade Seth Curry for CJ instead?

Seth has a better on/off ORtg than both Tobi or CJ. I’d add Thybulle if they want any defense.

On a more serious note, I dont think plainly looking at on/off ORtg would do justice on a player’s value on offense. There’s a lot of factor that is in play, most importantly it’s based on a regular season style basketball environment where a guy like Seth Curry isn’t going to be near as valuable as CJ.

CJ’s talent as a shotcreator scorer that can be a second option on offense is why both the Blazers and why we value him.
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Re: Fantasy Trade Thread: 2020 Offseason 

Post#1749 » by the_process » Tue Apr 27, 2021 6:37 pm

76ciology wrote:
youngcrev wrote:I think you're just vastly overstating CJ's offensive impact on that team. He's missed half of this season, and in spite of the crazy numbers he was putting up before the injury, the offense didn't really skip a beat when he was out. Damian Lillard is the reason their offense is as good as it is. The lineup that's played the most minutes for that team does not include CJ, and has a sizzling ORTG of 122.9 with Cov and Jones Jr on the floor.


Why not trade Seth Curry for CJ instead?

Seth has a better on/off ORtg than both Tobi or CJ. I’d add Thybulle if they want any defense.

On a more serious note, I dont think plainly looking at on/off ORtg would do justice on a player’s value on offense. There’s a lot of factor that is in play, most importantly it’s based on a regular season style basketball environment where a guy like Seth Curry isn’t going to be near as valuable as CJ.

CJ’s talent as a shotcreator scorer that can be a second option on offense is why both the Blazers and why we value him.


Portland doesn’t need more offense, though. They cannot stop anyone. Powell should be much better for them going forward, assuming they finally get a C who can stay healthy and defend.

But I mean, sure, if they will take Seth for CJ that would be awesome. Making the salary work on that is going to be difficult though.
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Re: Fantasy Trade Thread: 2020 Offseason 

Post#1750 » by the_process » Tue Apr 27, 2021 6:40 pm

76ciology wrote:Why not go after Rozier? He’d be cheaper iMO. Hornets may even value the picks you that you can add as sweetener to the deal


Rozier won’t be cheaper. Charlotte just wants to make the playoffs every year, and Rozier is a big reason why they are going to again. Those types of teams are notorious for overvaluing their own players.
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Re: Fantasy Trade Thread: 2020 Offseason 

Post#1751 » by youngcrev » Tue Apr 27, 2021 6:48 pm

76ciology wrote:
youngcrev wrote:I think you're just vastly overstating CJ's offensive impact on that team. He's missed half of this season, and in spite of the crazy numbers he was putting up before the injury, the offense didn't really skip a beat when he was out. Damian Lillard is the reason their offense is as good as it is. The lineup that's played the most minutes for that team does not include CJ, and has a sizzling ORTG of 122.9 with Cov and Jones Jr on the floor.


Why not trade Seth Curry for CJ instead?

Seth has a better on/off ORtg than both Tobi or CJ. I’d add Thybulle if they want any defense.

On a more serious note, I dont think plainly looking at on/off ORtg would do justice on a player’s value on offense. There’s a lot of factor that is in play, most importantly it’s based on a regular season style basketball environment where a guy like Seth Curry isn’t going to be near as valuable as CJ.

CJ’s talent as a shotcreator scorer that can be a second option on offense is why both the Blazers and why we value him.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Who is plainly looking at on/off ORTG?

CJ is a sub all star level creator/scorer, and impacts the game as such.

The Blazers offense is as good as it is because Dame is a HOF level creator/scorer. They've consistently been really good offensively when he's on the floor throughout the years, regardless of personnel. CJ certainly helps, but this isn't an elite duo. It's one elite player and one good one, whose skills and weaknesses overlap more than would be optimal.

Having on ball scoring is important in the playoffs, but so is defense, and that's why they've flamed out most years.
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Re: Fantasy Trade Thread: 2020 Offseason 

Post#1752 » by 76ciology » Wed Apr 28, 2021 7:10 am

the_process wrote:
76ciology wrote:
youngcrev wrote:I think you're just vastly overstating CJ's offensive impact on that team. He's missed half of this season, and in spite of the crazy numbers he was putting up before the injury, the offense didn't really skip a beat when he was out. Damian Lillard is the reason their offense is as good as it is. The lineup that's played the most minutes for that team does not include CJ, and has a sizzling ORTG of 122.9 with Cov and Jones Jr on the floor.


Why not trade Seth Curry for CJ instead?

Seth has a better on/off ORtg than both Tobi or CJ. I’d add Thybulle if they want any defense.

On a more serious note, I dont think plainly looking at on/off ORtg would do justice on a player’s value on offense. There’s a lot of factor that is in play, most importantly it’s based on a regular season style basketball environment where a guy like Seth Curry isn’t going to be near as valuable as CJ.

CJ’s talent as a shotcreator scorer that can be a second option on offense is why both the Blazers and why we value him.


Portland doesn’t need more offense, though. They cannot stop anyone. Powell should be much better for them going forward, assuming they finally get a C who can stay healthy and defend.

But I mean, sure, if they will take Seth for CJ that would be awesome. Making the salary work on that is going to be difficult though.


1.) its 2021, you can possibly beat your opponent’s offense by having better offense
2.) they need defense so the answer is Tobi?
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Re: Fantasy Trade Thread: 2020 Offseason 

Post#1753 » by 76ciology » Wed Apr 28, 2021 7:19 am

youngcrev wrote:
CJ is a sub all star level creator/scorer, and impacts the game as such.

It's one elite player and one good one, whose skills and weaknesses overlap more than would be optimal.



So why are we doing this trade that sounds like (based on previous posts) we’re just going to to go sideways on offense while taking a step back on defense?

No they’re skills does not overlap, just as Harden-Kyrie or Conley-mitchell,Booker-CP3, Kawhi and PG doesnt overlap. This kind of set-up is not redundant but rather optimal. Even Morey believes in this set-up where he paired RW-Harden and Cp3-Harden.

Both CJ and Dame are great shooters that can play off ball when one of them is operating with the ball.

The most optimal way in today’s offense is to have two guys who can breakdown from the perimeter the defense on either side of the court.

Without it, you’ll see Dame struggling like how Steph is with him playing with a couple of subpar shot creator wings who can shoot.

As good as Dame is. He wont be able to do it all alone. Even MJ needs Pippen. Even Lebron needs a couple of allstars, every time.

Trading CJ for Tobias, is not a step towards that for the Blazers.
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Re: Fantasy Trade Thread: 2020 Offseason 

Post#1754 » by DCasey91 » Wed Apr 28, 2021 9:29 am

If CJ goes (which makes such logical sense, should have happened seasons ago)

They have Powell/Trent as replacements.
I mean CJ + Cov for Harris + Thybulle and our pick is fair on both sides

Lillard
Powell
Thybulle
Harris
Nurkic

Hill
CJ
Covington
Simmons
Embiid

I mean both teams should be very very pleased with each other’s starting setups. It’s line when Spider-Man starts pointing at the other Spider-Man meme.

76ers: “Dude your starting unit is killer big ups Blazers.
Blazers: “No way yours is great too. Cheers thanks for the deal.”

Heck they have Gary Trent/Simons leftover they are super fine for creators. Watch Thybulle can gun for an All DEF 1st league spot with a prime offensive force behind him so his offense gets overlooked (Durant/Roberson). We get a shot creator and a 3&D wing just more space for us, more 3ball/Rebounding and a better fit for them. Win/Win all round


Then trade Milton/Maxey for Goga and we have:

Curry (6th man)
Goga (Backup/Starter for a share of games, more minutes = better looking player obv)
Developing youngster (Maxey/Milton pick one go from there)
Backup PF/Wing that can shoot (you’ll find something)

Easy.
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Re: Fantasy Trade Thread: 2020 Offseason 

Post#1755 » by 76ciology » Wed Apr 28, 2021 9:44 am

Powell and trent are NOT replacements, they are like Tobi. They are pressure release valves or “third options”. Just as

Harrison Barnes was on the 73 win Warriors, Kevin Love with Cavs superteam or Chris Bosh was with LeBron.

CJ is a second option scorer something Dame and Embiid both need.

Think of when Embiid is doubled or is facing Marc Gasol or Dame whenever Ben is on him, both needs someone to step up and breakdown the defense. CJ could be that.

But I personally (and i believe morey also) prefer someone better like Harden. But I dont know.. maybe Embiid would be good enough that a guy like CJ would do.

Think about it.. would our problem of this “shotcreator” be solved if we have Norman Powell instead? Tobi is better than Powell. So doesnt it contradicts?

If there is a duo that has a negative effect on overlapping..

it’s not dame and cj.
It’s Norman Powell and Tobias Harris.

I just feel like you have to look at both sides.
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Re: Fantasy Trade Thread: 2020 Offseason 

Post#1756 » by youngcrev » Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:38 am

76ciology wrote:So why are we doing this trade that sounds like (based on previous posts) we’re just going to to go sideways on offense while taking a step back on defense?


It only sounds like that if you're purposely being obtuse. I've repeated the reason over and over again, fit.

No they’re skills does not overlap, just as Harden-Kyrie or Conley-mitchell,Booker-CP3, Kawhi and PG doesnt overlap. This kind of set-up is not redundant but rather optimal. Even Morey believes in this set-up where he paired RW-Harden and Cp3-Harden.


That's silly. Of course there's overlap in those skillets. Overlap in strengths isn't necessarily a bad thing, though you do get diminishing returns on certain skills. Overlapping weaknesses is the bigger issue. You know, fit. The Nets duo is the only problematic one of the ones you mentioned in terms of the overlap, as when they're both out there you'll get diminished returns on the on ball playmaking from one of the them while having 2 minus defenders. That's the reason many think they'll be beatable in the playoffs in spite of having an overwhelming, top end talent advantage.

Both CJ and Dame are great shooters that can play off ball when one of them is operating with the ball.


Offense isn't the issue, though I think it would help if one of them was a better distributor.

The most optimal way in today’s offense is to have two guys who can breakdown from the perimeter the defense on either side of the court.


The most optimal is a healthy Warriors team a couple years ago. There's multiple effective ways to run good offense.

Without it, you’ll see Dame struggling like how Steph is with him playing with a couple of subpar shot creator wings who can shoot.


Steph isn't exactly struggling if you've been paying attention. The Warriors aren't good because they've got bad players around them, not because they're missing some specific skill. Klay isn't a shot creator. They were about as elite of an offensive duo as there was before they added KD.

As good as Dame is. He wont be able to do it all alone. Even MJ needs Pippen. Even Lebron needs a couple of allstars, every time
.

CJ isn't Pippen. Or an All Star. And he'd be getting replaced with a similar caliber player that fits better. So...

Trading CJ for Tobias, is not a step towards that for the Blazers


Possibly. Might not work out. But what they have now isn't working either in terms of the ultimate goal. This is their 2nd straight year of being at the bottom of the league defensively and sitting as a low seed in the standings. I think re-working the lineup could be beneficial to them, similar to how it was for the Curry Warriors. Remember, before there was Klay and Draymond, there was Monta Ellis and David Lee.
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Re: Fantasy Trade Thread: 2020 Offseason 

Post#1757 » by the_process » Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:50 pm

76ciology wrote:
youngcrev wrote:
CJ is a sub all star level creator/scorer, and impacts the game as such.

It's one elite player and one good one, whose skills and weaknesses overlap more than would be optimal.



So why are we doing this trade that sounds like (based on previous posts) we’re just going to to go sideways on offense while taking a step back on defense?

No they’re skills does not overlap, just as Harden-Kyrie or Conley-mitchell,Booker-CP3, Kawhi and PG doesnt overlap. This kind of set-up is not redundant but rather optimal. Even Morey believes in this set-up where he paired RW-Harden and Cp3-Harden.

Both CJ and Dame are great shooters that can play off ball when one of them is operating with the ball.

The most optimal way in today’s offense is to have two guys who can breakdown from the perimeter the defense on either side of the court.

Without it, you’ll see Dame struggling like how Steph is with him playing with a couple of subpar shot creator wings who can shoot.

As good as Dame is. He wont be able to do it all alone. Even MJ needs Pippen. Even Lebron needs a couple of allstars, every time.

Trading CJ for Tobias, is not a step towards that for the Blazers.


There is a thread right now on the T&T board where the offer was Thybulle and Harris for CJ and RoCo. Universally approved by Portland fans. Whom I would assume have a better grasp on what would be good for their team than anyone else.

The Blazers need a F. They have Powell and Simons who can step in for CJ. Harris is almost assuredly the more valuable player at this time, stunning as that may be.
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Re: Fantasy Trade Thread: 2020 Offseason 

Post#1758 » by 76ciology » Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:38 pm

the_process wrote:
76ciology wrote:
youngcrev wrote:
CJ is a sub all star level creator/scorer, and impacts the game as such.

It's one elite player and one good one, whose skills and weaknesses overlap more than would be optimal.



So why are we doing this trade that sounds like (based on previous posts) we’re just going to to go sideways on offense while taking a step back on defense?

No they’re skills does not overlap, just as Harden-Kyrie or Conley-mitchell,Booker-CP3, Kawhi and PG doesnt overlap. This kind of set-up is not redundant but rather optimal. Even Morey believes in this set-up where he paired RW-Harden and Cp3-Harden.

Both CJ and Dame are great shooters that can play off ball when one of them is operating with the ball.

The most optimal way in today’s offense is to have two guys who can breakdown from the perimeter the defense on either side of the court.

Without it, you’ll see Dame struggling like how Steph is with him playing with a couple of subpar shot creator wings who can shoot.

As good as Dame is. He wont be able to do it all alone. Even MJ needs Pippen. Even Lebron needs a couple of allstars, every time.

Trading CJ for Tobias, is not a step towards that for the Blazers.


There is a thread right now on the T&T board where the offer was Thybulle and Harris for CJ and RoCo. Universally approved by Portland fans. Whom I would assume have a better grasp on what would be good for their team than anyone else.

The Blazers need a F. They have Powell and Simons who can step in for CJ. Harris is almost assuredly the more valuable player at this time, stunning as that may be.


Yeah just saw that. I guess im wrong.

And I’d welcome that trade.

I’d probably ship Roco, because he’s about to be overpaid and Im not a big fan of his game.

I’d be excited to pair CJ with Hill or Milton. That would be fun.
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Re: Fantasy Trade Thread: 2020 Offseason 

Post#1759 » by Rastas » Wed Apr 28, 2021 2:29 pm

Portland will want Ben not Tobi , I'm sure they would add an asset or 2 with CJ to tempt the Sixers.
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Re: Fantasy Trade Thread: 2020 Offseason 

Post#1760 » by stormi » Wed Apr 28, 2021 2:54 pm

Philadelphia will want Dame not CJ , I'm sure they would add an asset or 2 with Ben to tempt the Blazers.

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