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Who still wants Harden?

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Who still wants Harden? 

Post#1 » by Dnt hate » Thu Dec 17, 2020 2:42 am

I don't think we should get Harden, he's going to be a cancer in the locker room, I say pass and go for someone like Beal or do nothing and see how the team does in the playoffs
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Re: Who still wants Harden? 

Post#2 » by Negrodamus » Thu Dec 17, 2020 2:54 am

I mean, if we're just handing out free Hardens, I'll take one.
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Re: Who still wants Harden? 

Post#3 » by stormi » Thu Dec 17, 2020 2:55 am

I don't think you can go wrong either way. Leaning towards keeping Ben though
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Re: Who still wants Harden? 

Post#4 » by Stanford » Thu Dec 17, 2020 3:16 am

Dnt hate wrote:I say pass and go for someone like Beal


Bradley Beal is going to be expensive and he isn't half as good as Harden.
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Re: Who still wants Harden? 

Post#5 » by Iverson Armband » Thu Dec 17, 2020 3:18 am

Ask me in a month. Ben Simmons is a lost cause, but If Shake and Max can continue to show scoring promise, I say stick with that. We could use the defense from Ben in that case and we’d have a relatively young team on the rise with no distractions that could grow together with some good vets sprinkled in.
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Re: Who still wants Harden? 

Post#6 » by Black Mage » Thu Dec 17, 2020 3:19 am

No one knows better what you're getting yourself into than Morey. If Morey feels it's a good move, I won't doubt his judgment.
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Re: Who still wants Harden? 

Post#7 » by BigSleep333 » Thu Dec 17, 2020 3:31 am

i doubt the decision is made soon. probably depends on the first half of the season. if we still suck, then i would say go for it. no rush for it now, especially if houston wants 3 firsts in addition..

^assuming they want ben+picks.
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Re: Who still wants Harden? 

Post#8 » by Skates » Thu Dec 17, 2020 4:09 am

Iverson Armband wrote:Ask me in a month. Ben Simmons is a lost cause, but If Shake and Max can continue to show scoring promise, I say stick with that. We could use the defense from Ben in that case and we’d have a relatively young team on the rise with no distractions that could grow together with some good vets sprinkled in.


An All NBA team lost cause, that is a funny one. Nothing like a bunch of all out ridiculous hot takes and utter extreme opinions leaving no room for a guy to be a great player, but not the final piece or closer we need.

If the price comes down on Harden, who wouldn't want him. I think you need him and two other great players to claim this is a Chip team, not him and one other. I would not trade Simmons for Harden, but if we could get Harden without moving Simmons, and they did not work out because of ball dominance issues (and I could see that going either way), then move Simmons for a similar level talent that fits better and is closer in age. I don't want to trade young and tons of team control for older and has issues in the locker room, but that does not mean I would never trade Simmons and never trade for Harden, I simply would not trade Simmons plus value for Harden. Simmons plus salary filler for Harden, sure, because then we can use the remaining assets to fill out with another player to take up some of Simmons lost contributions, the kind that don't get enough credit here, but make for winning basketball teams.
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Re: Who still wants Harden? 

Post#9 » by 76ciology » Thu Dec 17, 2020 6:56 am

You let Shake be number one option with the Wizards, he’ll atleast get you 20 a game with good shooting %. No way for Beal.

Beal is just a slight improvement (relative to overall talent of the league) from Tobias. Beal wont move the needle. If you look at the numbers Beal isnt a very good PnR or very good ISO. Once you get him, you still need a go to guy as good as the go to guys of the contenders like KD, Bron or Kawhi.
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Re: Who still wants Harden? 

Post#10 » by 76ciology » Thu Dec 17, 2020 7:07 am

If you consider all the expected value of all possible futures, i believe you’ll end up wanting to get Harden.

To start, Ben will never be as good as Harden. Unless he becomes a very good shooter, which i’d rather be betting on Fultz, lonzo ball or MCW’s jumper instead. Given their shooting development trajectory from absolute bottom.

Every 3 years, there may not be someone as special or unique as Ben in a draft. But there certainly is someone as good or better in talent or fit to Embiid. We’re not giving up a generational talent like LeBron. What we are giving up is a generational unique player like Bolbol. Not saying Ben is as equal to Bolbol, im only specifically referring to their uniqueness.

Think about this..
1-2 years ago, picking Ben over Tatum, Murray, Mitchell or Doncic would be crazy. But you can’t have the same impression right now. Honestly, if you look at the trend there’s an increasing number of players overtaking him in the hierarchy. For instance, if Ingram continues to improve, Ingram may be ending up as a better player to ben this season. Personally, i’d prefer Ingram over him last season. Ingram is already one of the best wing iso players, giving you good scoring numbers and good deflection numbers.

You also have to consider that Harden’s list are contenders in the east, whereas if he lands with one of those contenders with spare tires like Dinwiddie, Herro or Middleton, they’d close our championship window for the foreseeable future.

If you base it on regret minimization framework. If both scenario fails, i do think you’ll regret more in holding unto Ben than trading for Harden.

Harden has it flaws, but we can do our hedge. Like developing Maxey, Shake and our future draft picks until they can eventually transition to replace Harden once he decline.

The only reason why you shouldnt consider trading Ben is it’s better than any offers out there. But can we offer a better package with Tobi, Milton and picks? If yes, then we do that instead of Ben.

It’s all so rosy right now. But revisit this battle of decision during the play-offs with our russian roulette halfcourt offense and it would be clearer.
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Re: Who still wants Harden? 

Post#11 » by Dnt hate » Thu Dec 17, 2020 7:11 am

Iverson Armband wrote:Ask me in a month. Ben Simmons is a lost cause, but If Shake and Max can continue to show scoring promise, I say stick with that. We could use the defense from Ben in that case and we’d have a relatively young team on the rise with no distractions that could grow together with some good vets sprinkled in.

We definitely need Simmons to guard guys like tatum and durant
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Re: Who still wants Harden? 

Post#12 » by 76ciology » Thu Dec 17, 2020 7:31 am

Dnt hate wrote:
Iverson Armband wrote:Ask me in a month. Ben Simmons is a lost cause, but If Shake and Max can continue to show scoring promise, I say stick with that. We could use the defense from Ben in that case and we’d have a relatively young team on the rise with no distractions that could grow together with some good vets sprinkled in.

We definitely need Simmons to guard guys like tatum and durant


We can trade for someone who can defend both guys. They’re not as good but you can have a better positive value in return.

Let’s say RHJ or MKG and Harden versus Danny Green and Ben. Sure the later is better on defense but offensively, there’s just a big gap to fill.

And honestly, the league doesnt want defense to beat offense. The league wants better offense to beat good offense.

When Jamal Murray dropped 50 on Mitchell, was Mitchell a bad defender? When TJ Warren dropped 50 on Ben, was Ben a bad defender?

Was Murray and Mitchell just defending one another?


You put Ben on KD. He calls a screen to wipe out Ben. It’s not like just because you put Ben on Tatum or KD, Ben will be guarding him the entire game.

Let me tell you whats gonna happen. KD will drop 50, then people will say “yeah but when Ben was defending him he only scored 3-10” but who defended him on those 30-40 shots where he scored 50 pts on 50 attempts or less?
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Re: Who still wants Harden? 

Post#13 » by Dnt hate » Thu Dec 17, 2020 7:44 am

76ciology wrote:
Dnt hate wrote:
Iverson Armband wrote:Ask me in a month. Ben Simmons is a lost cause, but If Shake and Max can continue to show scoring promise, I say stick with that. We could use the defense from Ben in that case and we’d have a relatively young team on the rise with no distractions that could grow together with some good vets sprinkled in.

We definitely need Simmons to guard guys like tatum and durant


We can trade for someone who can defend both guys. They’re not as good but you can have a better positive value in return.

Let’s say RHJ or MKG and Harden versus Danny Green and Ben. Sure the later is better on defense but offensively, there’s just a big gap to fill.

And honestly, the league doesnt want defense to beat offense. The league wants better offense to beat good offense.

When Jamal Murray dropped 50 on Mitchell, was Mitchell a bad defender? When TJ Warren dropped 50 on Ben, was Ben a bad defender?

Was Murray and Mitchell just defending one another?


You put Ben on KD. He calls a screen to wipe out Ben. It’s not like just because you put Ben on Tatum or KD, Ben will be guarding him the entire game.

Let me tell you whats gonna happen. KD will drop 50, then people will say “yeah but when Ben was defending him he only scored 3-10” but who defended him on those 30-40 shots where he scored 50 pts on 50 attempts or less?

You have a point, I just don't trust Harden to behave himself, I am not a fan of Simmons and I don't want to trade him for Harden
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Re: Who still wants Harden? 

Post#14 » by VDT » Thu Dec 17, 2020 11:23 am

I think one has to approach these potential trades as objectively as possible.

The first question to answer is whether Embiid and Simmons can realistically win a title as the main guys on the team. In that case it is probably wise to avoid most trades involving them.

If one thinks that it is unlikely that you can build a title team around these two then the options are to either try to add a third star player or try to trade Simmons or Embiid for that star. The needs of the teem are obvious, we need a perimeter oriented star that can create for himself and others to a degree, the hardest thing to get in the NBA. The next step is to assess the odds of bringing that player without trading Embiid or Simmons. If that seems unlikely in the foreseeable future, one has to see if trading one of Simmons or Embiid might be able to create a title team.

There are various risks here, for example an unforeseen trade opportunity, like Kawhi going to Toronto, may arise or maybe Simmons games improves rapidly etc. However, and that is applicable in the vast majority of times, there needs to be some risk in a potential trade because that risk represents the potential gains of your trade partner. In the case of Simmons, the team that trades for him needs to have that chance that Simmons improves his game considerably. If 2-3 years pass and Simmons doesnt improve it might be more obvious, and more palatable, to the fans that he needs to be traded to improve the team but he will not have much appeal to other teams for exactly the same reasons. In all these trades you need to be proactive most of the times, ie before there is a consensus among GMS or, even more, in Realgm. At the same time there are also, possibly more, risks with keeping the status quo. Players might get disgruntled and ask out (Embiid) or players might not materially improve (Simmons) further eroding their trade value. It might well be the case that the Sixers might have worse choices than now in the next offseason after another first/second round exit.
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Re: Who still wants Harden? 

Post#15 » by Tomjas » Thu Dec 17, 2020 12:30 pm

I mentioned this on main board

I am a Simmons fan

Simmons package for Curry & I am all in

Harden?

No way

Great player but he’s burned every star that he’s played with & Embiid is less mature than those guys

Joel would walk if they didn’t win

Then what?
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Re: Who still wants Harden? 

Post#16 » by ExplosionsInDaSky » Thu Dec 17, 2020 12:50 pm

Black Mage wrote:No one knows better what you're getting yourself into than Morey. If Morey feels it's a good move, I won't doubt his judgment.


This right here 100%
Personally, I say no to Harden just to answer the op.
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Re: Who still wants Harden? 

Post#17 » by 76ciology » Thu Dec 17, 2020 1:25 pm

What makes you say Embiid wont ask for a trade if we can’t be a contender while Jimmy and Pat Riley court him to play with the Heat?

What makes you say Embiid won’t be fed with how this team tries so hard to cater to Ben’s limitation rather than asking him to adjust his game by learning how to shoot?

What makes you say Embiid won’t be fed of how Ben’s people are on the organization that makes the structure very political?

Read on Twitter


What makes you say that these rumors hasn’t led to Ben Simmons being “woke” to the idea of having his own team? Ben will never have his own team with Biid. He will have a chance with a team like the Rockets.

They’re not a good fit and both guys think they are good enough to have their own team. What makes you say one will sacrifice his career for the other?

These are human emotions and personality. This is not like trading for headcase demarcus cousins back then playing losing basketball. Harden is probably top 3-5 in wins among current superstars.

You control what you can control. Put the most talented team out there and roll the dice.
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Re: Who still wants Harden? 

Post#18 » by Tomjas » Thu Dec 17, 2020 1:59 pm

76ciology wrote:What makes you say Embiid wont ask for a trade if we can’t be a contender while Jimmy and Pat Riley court him to play with the Heat?

What makes you say Embiid won’t be fed with how this team tries so hard to cater to Ben’s limitation rather than asking him to adjust his game by learning how to shoot?

What makes you say Embiid won’t be fed of how Ben’s people are on the organization that makes the structure very political?

Read on Twitter


What makes you say that these rumors hasn’t led to Ben Simmons being “woke” to the idea of having his own team? Ben will never have his own team with Biid. He will have a chance with a team like the Rockets.

They’re not a good fit and both guys think they are good enough to have their own team. What makes you say one will sacrifice his career for the other?

These are human emotions and personality. This is not like trading for headcase demarcus cousins back then playing losing basketball. Harden is probably top 3-5 in wins among current superstars.

You control what you can control. Put the most talented team out there and roll the dice.


lol

Sixers won’t be Joel’s team with Harden

Do you seriously think that James will take a back seat to Embiid?

Likewise, Rockets won’t be Ben’s team with Wall unless they dump the latter to rebuild around Simmons
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Re: Who still wants Harden? 

Post#19 » by 76ciology » Thu Dec 17, 2020 2:11 pm

Tomjas wrote:
76ciology wrote:What makes you say Embiid wont ask for a trade if we can’t be a contender while Jimmy and Pat Riley court him to play with the Heat?

What makes you say Embiid won’t be fed with how this team tries so hard to cater to Ben’s limitation rather than asking him to adjust his game by learning how to shoot?

What makes you say Embiid won’t be fed of how Ben’s people are on the organization that makes the structure very political?

Read on Twitter


What makes you say that these rumors hasn’t led to Ben Simmons being “woke” to the idea of having his own team? Ben will never have his own team with Biid. He will have a chance with a team like the Rockets.

They’re not a good fit and both guys think they are good enough to have their own team. What makes you say one will sacrifice his career for the other?

These are human emotions and personality. This is not like trading for headcase demarcus cousins back then playing losing basketball. Harden is probably top 3-5 in wins among current superstars.

You control what you can control. Put the most talented team out there and roll the dice.


lol

Sixers won’t be Joel’s team with Harden

Do you seriously think that James will take a back seat to Embiid?

Likewise, Rockets won’t be Ben’s team with Wall unless they dump the latter to rebuild around Simmons


Do you think Ben is OK not having his own team and is happy playing under the shadow of Biid?
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Re: Who still wants Harden? 

Post#20 » by Arsenal » Thu Dec 17, 2020 2:30 pm

76ciology wrote:
Tomjas wrote:
76ciology wrote:What makes you say Embiid wont ask for a trade if we can’t be a contender while Jimmy and Pat Riley court him to play with the Heat?

What makes you say Embiid won’t be fed with how this team tries so hard to cater to Ben’s limitation rather than asking him to adjust his game by learning how to shoot?

What makes you say Embiid won’t be fed of how Ben’s people are on the organization that makes the structure very political?

Read on Twitter


What makes you say that these rumors hasn’t led to Ben Simmons being “woke” to the idea of having his own team? Ben will never have his own team with Biid. He will have a chance with a team like the Rockets.

They’re not a good fit and both guys think they are good enough to have their own team. What makes you say one will sacrifice his career for the other?

These are human emotions and personality. This is not like trading for headcase demarcus cousins back then playing losing basketball. Harden is probably top 3-5 in wins among current superstars.

You control what you can control. Put the most talented team out there and roll the dice.


lol

Sixers won’t be Joel’s team with Harden

Do you seriously think that James will take a back seat to Embiid?

Likewise, Rockets won’t be Ben’s team with Wall unless they dump the latter to rebuild around Simmons


Do you think Ben is OK not having his own team and is happy playing under the shadow of Biid?


You keep pushing this rumor and innuendo, but it has already been debunked by our board insider fl311.

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