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G8: Wiz@76ers: 01/06/21 7PM

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Re: G8: Wiz@76ers: 01/06/21 7PM 

Post#261 » by 76ciology » Thu Jan 7, 2021 3:16 pm

Hahaha there’s no way you can stop Beal on that run he had. You need to win it by also scoring and play team defense.

Green is a good defender. But look at all the screen plays.


The league designed the game to be played this way. The league wants those AI vs Vince Carter duel we had during our finals run.

This is kind of also why I dont really put much value on Ben’s defense. Like sure, he’s great. But just ask your big to erase Ben off that screen and it’s pull-up jumper all day.

And in our case, you better hope Biid would make those face-up jumpers, or seth/milton/tobi would be able to make similar shots from those 2 man action from Beal.
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Re: G8: Wiz@76ers: 01/06/21 7PM 

Post#262 » by Kobblehead » Thu Jan 7, 2021 3:20 pm

Agreed in that the league changed. It's no longer about checks and counters. It's about going tit for tat. The rule changes dictate it that way.
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Re: G8: Wiz@76ers: 01/06/21 7PM 

Post#263 » by Iverson Armband » Thu Jan 7, 2021 3:24 pm

ivysixer2000 wrote:
Black Mage wrote:
ivysixer2000 wrote:Even though Beal was going nuts, he's 6'3" on a good day. Green was really the best bet on him, Ben chasing him around at that point would've been useless. Besides he did go cold in the 4th anyway.

Harden could come, who knows, I just hope its a good deal instead of giving away all our young depth again if it happens. One thing is for sure, Ben hasn't shown anything has changed with him, and come playoff time we could be looking at a rerun. But I'm going to try to worry about now, and as of right now, they look really good when the shots are falling.


Would it have hurt to stick Ben on him to start the 3rd, at least try to get get him out of rhythm? You don't have to stick Ben on him all night, but you could have come out and said, Ben lock him down for the first 5 mins, demoralize them and put the foot on the throat so we can rest you guys in the 4th.

Instead, they got back into it and we ended up clawing out a win while having to use our guys in heavy minutes as we go into a brutal stretch of games.

::EDIT:: If you have an asset but don't use it, it's not really an asset at that point.


I think you are saying it here like Ben has to be some kind of magical blanket that he has to have to put on a hot opponent, and if he doesn't, he's worthless so trade him for Harden. That's just not how the game works, could've put Ben on him and still not 'lock him down' at that point, so immediately trade Ben?

Danny Green isn't a bad defender, and at a similar size was a good matchup with Beal. The Brett "throw everything including the kitchen sink' theory can work, but it can also blow up in your face. There are plenty of games where coaches let one player go off but still win the game, as we did in this one.

No reason to second guess it, not like Green is a horrible defender. Green will probably be defending alot of smaller guards this year, he doesn't usually do a horrible job, so its something we will have to deal with.

People LOVE to throw out how great a defender Ben is and how his true value is on that end, etc. That’s fine and perfectly fair. It’s also fair to ask why he wasn’t on a guy who gave us 60, that doesn’t mean it was a lock he would have stopped him but it’s a fair question. But this is why in reality, on ball defense is overrated anyway because stars/good offensive players are going to get theirs regardless most nights, and officials will always give them the benefit of the doubt.
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Re: G8: Wiz@76ers: 01/06/21 7PM 

Post#264 » by Skates » Thu Jan 7, 2021 4:04 pm

Iverson Armband wrote:
ivysixer2000 wrote:
Black Mage wrote:
Would it have hurt to stick Ben on him to start the 3rd, at least try to get get him out of rhythm? You don't have to stick Ben on him all night, but you could have come out and said, Ben lock him down for the first 5 mins, demoralize them and put the foot on the throat so we can rest you guys in the 4th.

Instead, they got back into it and we ended up clawing out a win while having to use our guys in heavy minutes as we go into a brutal stretch of games.

::EDIT:: If you have an asset but don't use it, it's not really an asset at that point.


I think you are saying it here like Ben has to be some kind of magical blanket that he has to have to put on a hot opponent, and if he doesn't, he's worthless so trade him for Harden. That's just not how the game works, could've put Ben on him and still not 'lock him down' at that point, so immediately trade Ben?

Danny Green isn't a bad defender, and at a similar size was a good matchup with Beal. The Brett "throw everything including the kitchen sink' theory can work, but it can also blow up in your face. There are plenty of games where coaches let one player go off but still win the game, as we did in this one.

No reason to second guess it, not like Green is a horrible defender. Green will probably be defending alot of smaller guards this year, he doesn't usually do a horrible job, so its something we will have to deal with.

People LOVE to throw out how great a defender Ben is and how his true value is on that end, etc. That’s fine and perfectly fair. It’s also fair to ask why he wasn’t on a guy who gave us 60, that doesn’t mean it was a lock he would have stopped him but it’s a fair question. But this is why in reality, on ball defense is overrated anyway because stars/good offensive players are going to get theirs regardless most nights, and officials will always give them the benefit of the doubt.


And yet they won the game and it was Bertrans, Smith and Lopez that lead much of that charge.

The Lakers won last year because of their defense.

And let's stop the Simmons versus Harden narrative, the Rockets want Simmons plus a boatload, not Simmons alone. Morey knows far better than us about Harden and Simmons. It isn't an either or choice, it isn't Simmons for Harden, it is not that simple or binary and never has been.
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Re: G8: Wiz@76ers: 01/06/21 7PM 

Post#265 » by Young22 » Thu Jan 7, 2021 5:17 pm

Zumramania wrote:
Simmons25 wrote:
Black Mage wrote:So, let me get this straight. We scored an insane 141.

Ben scored ONE extra point above his average. And we didn't use him to guard their hottest and best shooter.

Why are we so against trading him for Harden again???


If Brett Brown had been that stubborn... he would have been roundly condemned. The knock on Doc Rivers was that he doesn't make changes when he needs to. He is yet to win me over as a coach. Daryl Morey is the reason for the improvement so far... not Rivers.


This is what I'm afraid of...Doc might get outcoached in the playoffs. Hopefully our assistant coaches will help.



You didn’t notice Joel started showing on the screens so Beal couldn’t get his pull up off?
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Re: G8: Wiz@76ers: 01/06/21 7PM 

Post#266 » by Iverson Armband » Thu Jan 7, 2021 5:35 pm

Skates wrote:
Iverson Armband wrote:
ivysixer2000 wrote:
I think you are saying it here like Ben has to be some kind of magical blanket that he has to have to put on a hot opponent, and if he doesn't, he's worthless so trade him for Harden. That's just not how the game works, could've put Ben on him and still not 'lock him down' at that point, so immediately trade Ben?

Danny Green isn't a bad defender, and at a similar size was a good matchup with Beal. The Brett "throw everything including the kitchen sink' theory can work, but it can also blow up in your face. There are plenty of games where coaches let one player go off but still win the game, as we did in this one.

No reason to second guess it, not like Green is a horrible defender. Green will probably be defending alot of smaller guards this year, he doesn't usually do a horrible job, so its something we will have to deal with.

People LOVE to throw out how great a defender Ben is and how his true value is on that end, etc. That’s fine and perfectly fair. It’s also fair to ask why he wasn’t on a guy who gave us 60, that doesn’t mean it was a lock he would have stopped him but it’s a fair question. But this is why in reality, on ball defense is overrated anyway because stars/good offensive players are going to get theirs regardless most nights, and officials will always give them the benefit of the doubt.


And yet they won the game and it was Bertrans, Smith and Lopez that lead much of that charge.

The Lakers won last year because of their defense.

And let's stop the Simmons versus Harden narrative, the Rockets want Simmons plus a boatload, not Simmons alone. Morey knows far better than us about Harden and Simmons. It isn't an either or choice, it isn't Simmons for Harden, it is not that simple or binary and never has been.


Bertans, Smith and Lopez? Are you kidding me? But yeah, you’re probably right after Beal carried their sorry asses for 3 straight quarters to put them in a position to earn their paychecks. Poor guy was probably half shot in the butt by then.

Of course it isn’t Simmons for Harden, because that wouldn’t even be close to being fair LOL. But I guess having two of the best offensive players in the league had nothing to do with the Lakers winning the championship :lol: . It was just that good, old fashioned defense. Reality is, nobody wins because of any one thing . Teams that are usually in the top 10 of both offense and defense are the ones who win championships. So no, they didn’t win because defense, they won because of both. Sixers are currently the 14th ranked offense and 1st ranked defense. If that offensive rating doesn’t come up they aren’t winning anything.
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Re: G8: Wiz@76ers: 01/06/21 7PM 

Post#267 » by Black Mage » Thu Jan 7, 2021 6:55 pm

So, in trying to type my original post while still watching and paying attention to that OTHER thing going on yesterday, I did a poor job of making my point.

The reason you would want to hold onto Ben over say trading him for Harden or Beal or what have you, is he is a dynamic defender. That's the asset we have with him.

Last night we are getting lit up, but Doc kept our best defensive asset largely in the closet.

And I get that there's no guarantee Ben could have stopped or slowed Beal, but you also don't know that he couldn't have. I recall a few games where Ben did a great job on ball denial or by pressuring from behind trailing on a screen.

The point I meant to make is, if you aren't going to use your best defensive asset to try and control the opponent's best scorer then what's the point of having that asset to begin with. This would be my same feeling as to any player. If we had Harden to be our scorer and don't use him on offense then what's the point of worrying about giving him up, we aren't using him anyway.
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Re: G8: Wiz@76ers: 01/06/21 7PM 

Post#268 » by Young22 » Thu Jan 7, 2021 7:49 pm

Black Mage wrote:So, in trying to type my original post while still watching and paying attention to that OTHER thing going on yesterday, I did a poor job of making my point.

The reason you would want to hold onto Ben over say trading him for Harden or Beal or what have you, is he is a dynamic defender. That's the asset we have with him.

Last night we are getting lit up, but Doc kept our best defensive asset largely in the closet.

And I get that there's no guarantee Ben could have stopped or slowed Beal, but you also don't know that he couldn't have. I recall a few games where Ben did a great job on ball denial or by pressuring from behind trailing on a screen.

The point I meant to make is, if you aren't going to use your best defensive asset to try and control the opponent's best scorer then what's the point of having that asset to begin with. This would be my same feeling as to any player. If we had Harden to be our scorer and don't use him on offense then what's the point of worrying about giving him up, we aren't using him anyway.



Your asking the wrong questions. Beal wasn’t taking anyone off the dribble.

The question should be, why did it take so long for Joel to start showing on screens? My answer would be we had a 20pt lead.
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Re: G8: Wiz@76ers: 01/06/21 7PM 

Post#269 » by Iverson Armband » Thu Jan 7, 2021 8:45 pm

Young22 wrote:
Black Mage wrote:So, in trying to type my original post while still watching and paying attention to that OTHER thing going on yesterday, I did a poor job of making my point.

The reason you would want to hold onto Ben over say trading him for Harden or Beal or what have you, is he is a dynamic defender. That's the asset we have with him.

Last night we are getting lit up, but Doc kept our best defensive asset largely in the closet.

And I get that there's no guarantee Ben could have stopped or slowed Beal, but you also don't know that he couldn't have. I recall a few games where Ben did a great job on ball denial or by pressuring from behind trailing on a screen.

The point I meant to make is, if you aren't going to use your best defensive asset to try and control the opponent's best scorer then what's the point of having that asset to begin with. This would be my same feeling as to any player. If we had Harden to be our scorer and don't use him on offense then what's the point of worrying about giving him up, we aren't using him anyway.



Your asking the wrong questions. Beal wasn’t taking anyone off the dribble.

The question should be, why did it take so long for Joel to start showing on screens? My answer would be we had a 20pt lead.

He did a lot of damage off dribble penetration getting in to the lane too. Getting guys good shots and occasionally get himself a bucket. It wasn’t all screens.
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Re: G8: Wiz@76ers: 01/06/21 7PM 

Post#270 » by Young22 » Thu Jan 7, 2021 9:15 pm

Iverson Armband wrote:
Young22 wrote:
Black Mage wrote:So, in trying to type my original post while still watching and paying attention to that OTHER thing going on yesterday, I did a poor job of making my point.

The reason you would want to hold onto Ben over say trading him for Harden or Beal or what have you, is he is a dynamic defender. That's the asset we have with him.

Last night we are getting lit up, but Doc kept our best defensive asset largely in the closet.

And I get that there's no guarantee Ben could have stopped or slowed Beal, but you also don't know that he couldn't have. I recall a few games where Ben did a great job on ball denial or by pressuring from behind trailing on a screen.

The point I meant to make is, if you aren't going to use your best defensive asset to try and control the opponent's best scorer then what's the point of having that asset to begin with. This would be my same feeling as to any player. If we had Harden to be our scorer and don't use him on offense then what's the point of worrying about giving him up, we aren't using him anyway.



Your asking the wrong questions. Beal wasn’t taking anyone off the dribble.

The question should be, why did it take so long for Joel to start showing on screens? My answer would be we had a 20pt lead.

He did a lot of damage off dribble penetration getting in to the lane too. Getting guys good shots and occasionally get himself a bucket. It wasn’t all screens.



He was coming off pin downs, he barely ran PnR. We adjusted in the 4th when the starters returned.

We gotta stop fishing. Everyone is not a coaching expert now, because they fired the lovable idiot. People are sitting in the weeds waiting for Doc’s first mistake.

They are depressing.
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Re: G8: Wiz@76ers: 01/06/21 7PM 

Post#271 » by Sixerscan » Thu Jan 7, 2021 10:19 pm

I’d gladly trade Ben for Beal. A step behind Harden as a player but none of the real other concerns with him. I don’t even think a harden trade is necessarily nuts more than it’s nuanced and not as straightforward as some do.

Using the fact that Doc didn’t put Ben on a guy in a random regular season game as a reason to make a trade is just fishing though. There’s like 10 different plausible reasons people have already gone over.

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