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So what's the pivot? (Beal, Lavine, or smaller moves)? - Post Harden ideas and Rumors

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What is the pivot now that Harden is gone? Votes can be changed

Beal
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Lavine
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Smaller moves around the edges
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Re: So what's the pivot? (Beal, Lavine, or smaller moves)? - Post Harden ideas and Rumors 

Post#101 » by 76ciology » Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:50 pm

Stanford wrote:
76ciology wrote:We need that 2nd star. And there are a couple of guys that looks to be on a discount with Lavine and Beal.


Have we become so miserable as to think Zach LaVine is a championship caliber Second Star?

We are so screwed, guys.


Why not?

He’s only 25, going 26 this year. His development is on an uptrend. He’s one of the league’s best scorer.

He can’t carry a team but if you make Ben his “accessory”, then maybe you have a chance.

Think of Lavine being in charge on halfcourt, then letting Ben and D12 making their presence felt on defense and transition, if Biid is off the floor.

And when we have our best guys on the floor, we either can go to Lavine or Biid. Then have Ben at the dunker spot (3rd star).

Beal and Lavine are weak compared to Harden. But if you can pair either one with Ben, maybe you can have something as good as a 5 man unit with Harden.

There’s not much options out there when it comes to available 25-27ppg perimeter scorers who are available.

I say, trade for one of Lavine and Beal with Tobias and assets. Im talking about giving up multiple picks, milton or maxey and Tobias. Almost the same package we offered for Harden but Tobias instead of Ben, and much lesser picks.

Let’s see if it work. If not, then you trade Ben.
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Re: So what's the pivot? (Beal, Lavine, or smaller moves)? - Post Harden ideas and Rumors 

Post#102 » by 76ciology » Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:53 pm

The landscape has change.

You can’t just make this a offensive firepower contest, because you are going to lose with what the Nets have.

What you should do is find a way to get a high perimeter scoring guy to be your second star then find a way to make Ben the “accessory” empowering the team by defense and transition offense as a way to have an edge over the Nets or other team.

If this doesnt work, then you eventually trade Ben.
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Re: So what's the pivot? (Beal, Lavine, or smaller moves)? - Post Harden ideas and Rumors 

Post#103 » by GutUNC » Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:54 pm

76ciology wrote:
Stanford wrote:
76ciology wrote:We need that 2nd star. And there are a couple of guys that looks to be on a discount with Lavine and Beal.


Have we become so miserable as to think Zach LaVine is a championship caliber Second Star?

We are so screwed, guys.


Why not?

He’s only 25, going 26 this year. His development is on an uptrend. He’s one of the league’s best scorer.

He can’t carry a team but if you make Ben his “accessory”, then maybe you have a chance.

Beal and Lavine are weak compared to Harden. But if you can pair either one with Ben, maybe you can have something as good as a 5 man unit with Harden.

There’s not much options out there when it comes to available 25-27ppg perimeter scorers who are available.

I say, trade for one of Lavine and Beal with Tobias and assets. Im talking about giving up multiple picks, milton or maxey and Tobias. Almost the same package we offered for Harden but Tobias instead of Ben, and much lesser picks.

Let’s see if it work. If not, then you trade Ben.


If we can get them aside Ben then sure, I'm in. But the implication I've gotten from some is that they want to move Simmons for LaVine, which I think is borderline insanity.
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Re: So what's the pivot? (Beal, Lavine, or smaller moves)? - Post Harden ideas and Rumors 

Post#104 » by 51X3RF4N » Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:58 pm

I think the clear and obvious message from the fact Ben was on the table for Harden to me is that Daryl understands Ben isn't going to work well enough with Joel.

He may have been voted out of making a major offer, but he clearly sees a scenario where Embiid and an elite perimeter scorer can win a title more likely than Embiid and Ben.

The ONLY reason you put a 25 year old DPOY candidate, 6'10 athletic PG in any deal is because you realize you need an elite perimeter threat on offense, and CANNOT have Simmons on the floor if you want to maximize Joel.

So, will Ben be traded this season? Maybe not. But has Daryl showed his hand on his thoughts on Simmons/Embiid pairing?? Absolutely. It's just a matter of time now before Ben is traded. And my fear is his value will drop so far that the return will be underwhelming at best.

But...if you take him off the floor and give Embiid 4 guys who can shoot...it's a little bit of addition by subtraction if you ask me.

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Re: So what's the pivot? (Beal, Lavine, or smaller moves)? - Post Harden ideas and Rumors 

Post#105 » by 76ciology » Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:58 pm

GutUNC wrote:
76ciology wrote:
Stanford wrote:
Have we become so miserable as to think Zach LaVine is a championship caliber Second Star?

We are so screwed, guys.


Why not?

He’s only 25, going 26 this year. His development is on an uptrend. He’s one of the league’s best scorer.

He can’t carry a team but if you make Ben his “accessory”, then maybe you have a chance.

Beal and Lavine are weak compared to Harden. But if you can pair either one with Ben, maybe you can have something as good as a 5 man unit with Harden.

There’s not much options out there when it comes to available 25-27ppg perimeter scorers who are available.

I say, trade for one of Lavine and Beal with Tobias and assets. Im talking about giving up multiple picks, milton or maxey and Tobias. Almost the same package we offered for Harden but Tobias instead of Ben, and much lesser picks.

Let’s see if it work. If not, then you trade Ben.


If we can get them aside Ben then sure, I'm in. But the implication I've gotten from some is that they want to move Simmons for LaVine, which I think is borderline insanity.


Either way, we have to trade for one of Lavine or Beal.

But IMO we should try trading one of them without giving up Biid and Ben. If not, then let’s get one of them AND PICK(S) for Ben.

Then have the option to use those picks and Tobi for future deals.
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Re: So what's the pivot? (Beal, Lavine, or smaller moves)? - Post Harden ideas and Rumors 

Post#106 » by GutUNC » Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:05 pm

51X3RF4N wrote:So, will Ben be traded this season? Maybe not. But has Daryl showed his hand on his thoughts on Simmons/Embiid pairing?? Absolutely. It's just a matter of time now before Ben is traded. And my fear is his value will drop so far that the return will be underwhelming at best. RealGM mobile app


You're creating a scenario to fit your desired outcome. "I'm willing to deal Simmons if it gets me one of the greatest players of this generation" is not the same thing as "I'm listening to offers on Simmons". The latter puts Ben on the clock, the former doesn't.
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Re: So what's the pivot? (Beal, Lavine, or smaller moves)? - Post Harden ideas and Rumors 

Post#107 » by 76ciology » Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:07 pm

51X3RF4N wrote:I think the clear and obvious message from the fact Ben was on the table for Harden to me is that Daryl understands Ben isn't going to work well enough with Joel.

He may have been voted out of making a major offer, but he clearly sees a scenario where Embiid and an elite perimeter scorer can win a title more likely than Embiid and Ben.

The ONLY reason you put a 25 year old DPOY candidate, 6'10 athletic PG in any deal is because you realize you need an elite perimeter threat on offense, and CANNOT have Simmons on the floor if you want to maximize Joel.

So, will Ben be traded this season? Maybe not. But has Daryl showed his hand on his thoughts on Simmons/Embiid pairing?? Absolutely. It's just a matter of time now before Ben is traded. And my fear is his value will drop so far that the return will be underwhelming at best.

But...if you take him off the floor and give Embiid 4 guys who can shoot...it's a little bit of addition by subtraction if you ask me.

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Ben was on the table because it’s Harden. Morey wasn’t actively shopping Ben.

Ben does not fit with Biid, if Ben is asked to be the 2nd star or 2nd option on offense.
The problem lies whenever teams can slowdown Biid. Tell me how you’re going to generate halfcourt offense with our starting unit if Biid is having an offnight. This is where you need a guy like Beal or Lavine.



Ive said it weeks ago, so im not saying this because we fallout from the Harden deal. Our starting unit has an Embiid centric offense, the problem is whenever we try to find ways for Ben to generate the offense. And against most of the worst teams in the league or decent teams but with absent top players (magic or heat), Biid isnt finding much challenge while he right now has a “hot hand”.

And on crunch time, we let SMT (shake milton tobias) run 2 man games as a legitimate option on offense.

This is why replacing Shake with Green has been our deathball unit. We need a 2nd star or atleast a 2nd option on offense, if we can find that, we could go the distance in the playoffs.
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Re: So what's the pivot? (Beal, Lavine, or smaller moves)? - Post Harden ideas and Rumors 

Post#108 » by 76ciology » Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:09 pm

Ben fits well with Embiid if Embiid is playing godmode or if we have a legit 2nd star or 2nd option on offense. Yes, he can be a very good third star. An accessory to scorers like John Stockton and his 12ppg scoring average. Or Celtics Rondo.

This is why replacing Danny with Shake works wonder. But this is just a TEMPORARY BAND AID.

We need Beal, Lavine or someone similar. And it would be ideal and has a good shade of realistic possibility to get one without trading Biid and Ben
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Re: So what's the pivot? (Beal, Lavine, or smaller moves)? - Post Harden ideas and Rumors 

Post#109 » by 51X3RF4N » Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:11 pm

GutUNC wrote:
51X3RF4N wrote:So, will Ben be traded this season? Maybe not. But has Daryl showed his hand on his thoughts on Simmons/Embiid pairing?? Absolutely. It's just a matter of time now before Ben is traded. And my fear is his value will drop so far that the return will be underwhelming at best. RealGM mobile app


You're creating a scenario to fit your desired outcome. "I'm willing to deal Simmons if it gets me one of the greatest players of this generation" is not the same thing as "I'm listening to offers on Simmons". The latter puts Ben on the clock, the former doesn't.
And you're creating a scenario as well. Neither of us knows the exact truth of the matter. My opinion is that Daryl put Ben on the table for Harden, and that he will put Ben on the table for others. I don't see a world where Ben and Joel win a championship together, and I see Joel being unstoppable when surrounded by 4 shooters. And limited when Ben is on the floor with him.

And I'm not the only one who sees this. I think Daryl sees it too, and knows Ben has to go if you want the best Embiid has to offer.

That's my scenario because that's what I'm seeing with my own 2 eyes.

You can create whatever scenario fits your agenda because that's what this forum is about. Your opinion is that Daryl only put Ben on the table because it was Harden. So that's the scenario you choose to create.

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Re: So what's the pivot? (Beal, Lavine, or smaller moves)? - Post Harden ideas and Rumors 

Post#110 » by Stanford » Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:12 pm

GutUNC wrote:If we can get them aside Ben then sure, I'm in. But the implication I've gotten from some is that they want to move Simmons for LaVine, which I think is borderline insanity.


He cannot shake this idea that Tobias Harris has any value at all.
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Post#111 » by 76ciology » Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:14 pm

Im saying, try to trade Tobi and assets (multiple picks and young players).

If that doesnt work, then you trade Ben.
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Re: So what's the pivot? (Beal, Lavine, or smaller moves)? - Post Harden ideas and Rumors 

Post#112 » by tough83 » Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:16 pm

if embiid is the only star you have, you might as well just rebuild this thing all over again because we dont enough assets to get 2 stars and you know no star wants to come here to play with ben and embiid. there's no other option but to get first round picks back for embiid, simmons, and harris and build this thing over again because you dont know how much time embiid has left.

the process has failed because we didnt keep butler and we wasted assets on harris, that's pretty much blowing the rebuilding process.
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Re: So what's the pivot? (Beal, Lavine, or smaller moves)? - Post Harden ideas and Rumors 

Post#113 » by 51X3RF4N » Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:17 pm

76ciology wrote:Ben fits well with Embiid if Embiid is playing godmode or if we have a legit 2nd star or 2nd option on offense. Yes, he can be a very good third star. An accessory to scorers like John Stockton and his 12ppg scoring average.

This is why replacing Danny with Shake works wonder. But this is just a TEMPORARY BAND AID.

We need Beal, Lavine or someone similar.
I disagree. Putting Ben in the dunkers spot limits Joel's ability to create freely. Putting Ben in the corner limits Joel's ability to pass out to an open 3pt look. Putting Ben on the floor gives the opposition an advantage on defense. And they exploit it.

You want Embiid to beast like he did in the 3rd quarter last game? Gotta have Ben off the floor.

It was glaringly obvious when he came back in and Joel immediately had to adjust and didn't do as well until Ben fouled out, then it was back to Embiid beasting.

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Re: So what's the pivot? (Beal, Lavine, or smaller moves)? - Post Harden ideas and Rumors 

Post#114 » by 76ciology » Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:23 pm

51X3RF4N wrote:
76ciology wrote:Ben fits well with Embiid if Embiid is playing godmode or if we have a legit 2nd star or 2nd option on offense. Yes, he can be a very good third star. An accessory to scorers like John Stockton and his 12ppg scoring average.

This is why replacing Danny with Shake works wonder. But this is just a TEMPORARY BAND AID.

We need Beal, Lavine or someone similar.
I disagree. Putting Ben in the dunkers spot limits Joel's ability to create freely. Putting Ben in the corner limits Joel's ability to pass out to an open 3pt look. Putting Ben on the floor gives the opposition an advantage on defense. And they exploit it.

You want Embiid to beast like he did in the 3rd quarter last game? Gotta have Ben off the floor.

Against the Heat, watch the tape, he was isolating from top of the key to the FT line. Remember the shot that lead the game to OT?

It was glaringly obvious when he came back in and Joel immediately had to adjust and didn't do as well until Ben fouled out, then it was back to Embiid beasting.

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Biid was a beast because he is not posting up but is rather, facing up.

Look at his average shot distance and where his position is on crunch time, he is not in the paint.

He’s basically a 2 way near peak Dirk Nowitzki with lesser range right now.

To win with Biid, you need to stop or generate easy transition points and try to play elite defense. So do you need it whenever you have Beal or Lavine. This is where Ben come in.

If you have Beal or Lavine with Embiid, you then decrease his role on halfcourt offense. Which is pretty much what Doc has done looking at the numbers. Crunch time, put him on the dunker spot or steal some opportunistic drive attempts at the rim.

If all else fails, eventually trade Ben.

I dont know but it looks like what Morey and Doc plans to have. Remember all the chatter on Lavine? Ben wasnt on the table back then. Then you can say the same thing with our schemes and rotation on both ends
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Re: So what's the pivot? (Beal, Lavine, or smaller moves)? - Post Harden ideas and Rumors 

Post#115 » by Negrodamus » Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:52 pm

GutUNC wrote:
Kobblehead wrote:
GutUNC wrote:
People are worried about Embiid wanting out because Simmons' offensive game hasn't progressed......*THAT* deal is the exact way you get Embiid to ask out.

I don't see how you reach that conclusion.


Because taking out an All-Star player for a bunch of mystery boxes means Embiid has to carry the entire team on his back like he did 2 nights ago every night for at least the next 2 seasons.


Has Ben been carrying the team when Embiid plays poorly? I feel like on offense Ben is completely dependent on the success of everyone around him to be successful while Embiid can do what he did the other night to will us to a victory. I don't see this changing for Ben either.
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Re: So what's the pivot? (Beal, Lavine, or smaller moves)? - Post Harden ideas and Rumors 

Post#116 » by Mik317 » Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:57 pm

yall some emos lol
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Re: So what's the pivot? (Beal, Lavine, or smaller moves)? - Post Harden ideas and Rumors 

Post#117 » by GutUNC » Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:59 pm

51X3RF4N wrote:
GutUNC wrote:
51X3RF4N wrote:So, will Ben be traded this season? Maybe not. But has Daryl showed his hand on his thoughts on Simmons/Embiid pairing?? Absolutely. It's just a matter of time now before Ben is traded. And my fear is his value will drop so far that the return will be underwhelming at best. RealGM mobile app


You're creating a scenario to fit your desired outcome. "I'm willing to deal Simmons if it gets me one of the greatest players of this generation" is not the same thing as "I'm listening to offers on Simmons". The latter puts Ben on the clock, the former doesn't.
And you're creating a scenario as well. Neither of us knows the exact truth of the matter. My opinion is that Daryl put Ben on the table for Harden, and that he will put Ben on the table for others. I don't see a world where Ben and Joel win a championship together, and I see Joel being unstoppable when surrounded by 4 shooters. And limited when Ben is on the floor with him.

And I'm not the only one who sees this. I think Daryl sees it too, and knows Ben has to go if you want the best Embiid has to offer.

That's my scenario because that's what I'm seeing with my own 2 eyes.

You can create whatever scenario fits your agenda because that's what this forum is about. Your opinion is that Daryl only put Ben on the table because it was Harden. So that's the scenario you choose to create.

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?????

I in on way, shape of form created anything. I cited that Simmons was made available for Harden but for no one else which is the cast based on 100% of the reporting that's out there. I said nothing else.
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Re: So what's the pivot? (Beal, Lavine, or smaller moves)? - Post Harden ideas and Rumors 

Post#118 » by Negrodamus » Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:15 pm

Kobblehead wrote:It's a seller's market. Why not put Simmons on it? We've already hurt the relationship by dangling him for Harden.

I wouldn't mind taking a package of expirings, young scorers and future 1sts for Simmons.

Something like Otto Porter, Coby White, Chandler Hutchinson, and two future 1st rounders or something.


This trade would be so absurdly good for us.
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Re: So what's the pivot? (Beal, Lavine, or smaller moves)? - Post Harden ideas and Rumors 

Post#119 » by Stanford » Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:34 pm

I am not a fan of Coby White but I'd like to get a version of him that is good
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Re: So what's the pivot? (Beal, Lavine, or smaller moves)? - Post Harden ideas and Rumors 

Post#120 » by Negrodamus » Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:54 pm

Stanford wrote:I am not a fan of Coby White but I'd like to get a version of him that is good


I'm not a huge of him either, but Porter/Hutchison + picks insulates the trade for me. When Porter is healthy, he's one of the most efficient offensive role players in the league. Hutchison is just another intriguing prospect with two way potential. That would definitely be a risk I'd be willing to take, but I doubt the Bulls would be for it.

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