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Trade Deadline Thread

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Re: Trade Deadline Thread 

Post#1561 » by VDT » Fri Mar 26, 2021 2:56 pm

spikeslovechild wrote:
That isn't true. Good GM's with a timeline on an asset take the best offer available that is why the returns may vary widely depending on what is being offered.


A good GM would have not held onto Lowry, period. They would have taken the best offer and moved him there are also repercussions to this to Masai reputation part of what makes Sam Presti so well liked among players and agents is sure he may trade guys but he doesn't for the most part leave veterans in bad situations unless they want to finish out the season there or their contract is immovable.


You dont know what the offers were. I got the impression that no offer was particularly close to what the Raptors wanted and although the Raptors were asking too much they may have been offered too little, possibly because teams viewed Lowry as a rental. Doing a trade just to do it a la the Oladipo trade for Houston doesnt make sense, at least not for the Raptors and Lowry. If they dont get some assets why would they agree to a trade?

spikeslovechild wrote:Lowry wanted out. He wanted to goto a team that was going to offer him a contract extension and now instead he will have to be signed into cap space which severely limits not only his options in FA and also the money he will get. As a sixer fan this is the best case scenario because it means he'll likely sign for the MLE or go to a bad team.


I think Lowry wanted out because the Raptors dont want to give him the contract he wants. The Raptors tried to help Lowry get his contract but they are not going to make a trade without getting something out of it. Lowry may seem like the loser here but that is because the money he wants are more than the market wants to pay him (except maybe for the Heat). It is not Masai's fault that Lowry is unrealistic. If anything the Raptors should complain that Lowry's demands prevented them from getting anything.
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Re: Trade Deadline Thread 

Post#1562 » by spikeslovechild » Fri Mar 26, 2021 3:12 pm

VDT wrote:
spikeslovechild wrote:
That isn't true. Good GM's with a timeline on an asset take the best offer available that is why the returns may vary widely depending on what is being offered.


A good GM would have not held onto Lowry, period. They would have taken the best offer and moved him there are also repercussions to this to Masai reputation part of what makes Sam Presti so well liked among players and agents is sure he may trade guys but he doesn't for the most part leave veterans in bad situations unless they want to finish out the season there or their contract is immovable.


You dont know what the offers were. I got the impression that no offer was particularly close to what the Raptors wanted and although the Raptors were asking too much they may have been offered too little, possibly because teams viewed Lowry as a rental. Doing a trade just to do it a la the Oladipo trade for Houston doesnt make sense, at least not for the Raptors and Lowry. If they dont get some assets why would they agree to a trade?

spikeslovechild wrote:Lowry wanted out. He wanted to goto a team that was going to offer him a contract extension and now instead he will have to be signed into cap space which severely limits not only his options in FA and also the money he will get. As a sixer fan this is the best case scenario because it means he'll likely sign for the MLE or go to a bad team.


I think Lowry wanted out because the Raptors dont want to give him the contract he wants. The Raptors tried to help Lowry get his contract but they are not going to make a trade without getting something out of it. Lowry may seem like the loser here but that is because the money he wants are more than the market wants to pay him (except maybe for the Heat). It is not Masai's fault that Lowry is unrealistic. If anything the Raptors should complain that Lowry's demands prevented them from getting anything.


What you are not getting the market is whatever teams are offering and teams were right to view Lowry as a rental because that is what he was.

As far as to what the Raptors wanted and what teams were offering I do know that we traded 3 2nd round picks for Hill and would have added Green to any Lowry deal. So my guess and what I think think would have been fair would have been to trade a protected first plus Green maybe toss in a 2nd and for the Raptors to then pawn off Green to a contender for a cpl of 2nds.

Instead they reportedly asked for MULTIPLE first rounders. MULTIPLE young players. And Green. We know that because while the story of what we offered didn't leak what they were asking for did. What I think basically happened is we had the biggest need so we had the biggest initial offer probably by a decent margin and instead of taking it Masai played himself which caused Morey to pivot to Hill and then Masai to desperately seek another team and when those other teams offers came back less what Morey initial offer was Masai was stuck in a prison of his own poor decision making.
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Re: Trade Deadline Thread 

Post#1563 » by kriss73 » Fri Mar 26, 2021 3:52 pm

Sam Amick, theAthletic

a source with knowledge of the talks said the Raptors indeed believed they were very close on that front late in the process and that the draft compensation was the final unresolved hurdle. The plan, the source said, was for Toronto to re-route Sixers guard Danny Green to a third team.


I remember Stein tweeting that there was talks about D.Green to GSW and the Raps to clear a spot in the roster at the very last minute.

I wonder if the offer was:

Lowry->PHI
D.Green, PHI 1st ->GSW
Oubre, [maxey or thybulle], 2nd->TOR

The point of failure was draft compensations, so I suppose a future 1st and not a 2nd to TOR.

What do you guys think about this?
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Re: Trade Deadline Thread 

Post#1564 » by spikeslovechild » Fri Mar 26, 2021 4:14 pm

kriss73 wrote:Sam Amick, theAthletic

a source with knowledge of the talks said the Raptors indeed believed they were very close on that front late in the process and that the draft compensation was the final unresolved hurdle. The plan, the source said, was for Toronto to re-route Sixers guard Danny Green to a third team.


I remember Stein tweeting that there was talks about D.Green to GSW and the Raps to clear a spot in the roster at the very last minute.

I wonder if the offer was:

Lowry->PHI
D.Green, PHI 1st ->GSW
Oubre, [maxey or thybulle], 2nd->TOR

The point of failure was draft compensations, so I suppose a future 1st and not a 2nd to TOR.

What do you guys think about this?


Oubre is not worth a 1st round pick. If anything it would have been reverse the GSW being in playoff contention trading picks for Green then those picks being sent to Toronto.

Like I said earlier I think we offered a 1st rounder for Lowry. I think we probably viewed Green as a positive asset Toronto could have gotten picks for. I mean we gave up 3 2nds for Hill so knowing that would any of you been upset giving up a lightly protected first? I wouldn't have.

I don't believe we ever offered Thybulle or even Maxey. Or at least I choose to believe that
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Re: Trade Deadline Thread 

Post#1565 » by VDT » Fri Mar 26, 2021 4:18 pm

spikeslovechild wrote:
VDT wrote:
spikeslovechild wrote:
That isn't true. Good GM's with a timeline on an asset take the best offer available that is why the returns may vary widely depending on what is being offered.


A good GM would have not held onto Lowry, period. They would have taken the best offer and moved him there are also repercussions to this to Masai reputation part of what makes Sam Presti so well liked among players and agents is sure he may trade guys but he doesn't for the most part leave veterans in bad situations unless they want to finish out the season there or their contract is immovable.


You dont know what the offers were. I got the impression that no offer was particularly close to what the Raptors wanted and although the Raptors were asking too much they may have been offered too little, possibly because teams viewed Lowry as a rental. Doing a trade just to do it a la the Oladipo trade for Houston doesnt make sense, at least not for the Raptors and Lowry. If they dont get some assets why would they agree to a trade?

spikeslovechild wrote:Lowry wanted out. He wanted to goto a team that was going to offer him a contract extension and now instead he will have to be signed into cap space which severely limits not only his options in FA and also the money he will get. As a sixer fan this is the best case scenario because it means he'll likely sign for the MLE or go to a bad team.


I think Lowry wanted out because the Raptors dont want to give him the contract he wants. The Raptors tried to help Lowry get his contract but they are not going to make a trade without getting something out of it. Lowry may seem like the loser here but that is because the money he wants are more than the market wants to pay him (except maybe for the Heat). It is not Masai's fault that Lowry is unrealistic. If anything the Raptors should complain that Lowry's demands prevented them from getting anything.


What you are not getting the market is whatever teams are offering and teams were right to view Lowry as a rental because that is what he was.

As far as to what the Raptors wanted and what teams were offering I do know that we traded 3 2nd round picks for Hill and would have added Green to any Lowry deal. So my guess and what I think think would have been fair would have been to trade a protected first plus Green maybe toss in a 2nd and for the Raptors to then pawn off Green to a contender for a cpl of 2nds.

Instead they reportedly asked for MULTIPLE first rounders. MULTIPLE young players. And Green. We know that because while the story of what we offered didn't leak what they were asking for did. What I think basically happened is we had the biggest need so we had the biggest initial offer probably by a decent margin and instead of taking it Masai played himself which caused Morey to pivot to Hill and then Masai to desperately seek another team and when those other teams offers came back less what Morey initial offer was Masai was stuck in a prison of his own poor decision making.



Yes, they asked for too much but i never got the impression that we (or anyone else) were close to a trade. I doubt that the Raptors would make the trade for some late second round picks and that plus expirings might be what they were offered. It appears that there was a pretty big gap between what the Raptors wanted and what they were offered. Ultimately, i dont think the trade made that much sense for us and the Heat could get Oladipo for free and potentially sign Lowry as a free agent so they were not sending any value either.
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Re: Trade Deadline Thread 

Post#1566 » by PhillyPhilly » Fri Mar 26, 2021 4:24 pm

A lot people can question Masai...but the fact of the matter is out of many of the "big name" front office figures like Morey, Presti etc....he's the one who's won a championship..not them. So I'm not gonna mock the guy for standing pat on Lowry as the guy clearly had a reason...he's not stupid.
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Re: Trade Deadline Thread 

Post#1567 » by freshie2 » Fri Mar 26, 2021 4:28 pm

If the Raptors didn’t get Kawhi, then Masai wouldn’t look as brilliant.
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Re: Trade Deadline Thread 

Post#1568 » by Stanford » Fri Mar 26, 2021 4:40 pm

freshie2 wrote:If the Raptors didn’t get Kawhi, then Masai wouldn’t look as brilliant.


But he did, lol
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Re: Trade Deadline Thread 

Post#1569 » by MoeGreene » Fri Mar 26, 2021 4:44 pm

LloydFree wrote:Why would James Ennis be a buyout? He makes like 2 million dollars. What would he give back?


I took the list from CBS Sports, ask them.
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Re: Trade Deadline Thread 

Post#1570 » by Skates » Fri Mar 26, 2021 4:57 pm

The Lowry trade was always trickier for all three teams because they see each other as direct playoff competitors in the near future. The Raps are likely to look for a quick rebuild and the Sixers and Heat are both relevant playoff teams now and likely to be for some time. Toronto might have accepted a slightly lesser package from some team in the West, but these are essentially three rivals, and a huge package from either Philly or Miami would have depleted cheap young talent from both teams while boosting Toronto back into playoff contention even sooner. I think that dynamic contributed to no trade being made yesterday in the big picture.
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Re: Trade Deadline Thread 

Post#1571 » by spikeslovechild » Fri Mar 26, 2021 5:00 pm

PhillyPhilly wrote:A lot people can question Masai...but the fact of the matter is out of many of the "big name" front office figures like Morey, Presti etc....he's the one who's won a championship..not them. So I'm not gonna mock the guy for standing pat on Lowry as the guy clearly had a reason...he's not stupid.


I am not going to go personal on any GM other then to say I think Masai is overrated. He made a great trade to get Kawhi for one year but other then that has been pretty mediocre as a GM.

But regardless of feelings about his overall body of work when you look at this deadline he basically had a bunch of desirable assets and ways in which to approach the deadline. He had Boucher who had he made him available would have been valuable. He had Powell. He had Lowry.

I get moving Powell if you are in the midst of a rebuild. He probably has the most value. I don't get getting a RFA rather then picks back when Powell according to reports was willing to resign for 20M. I especially don't get moving Powell and keeping Lowry (with as Raptors fans believe then resigning him) if you want to retool rather then rebuild.

I don't understand what Masai did at all. I understand what Presti is doing he has a clear vision and direction he is taking his club. Toronto is stuck on a treadmill and Masai was given an opportunity to change that but didn't.
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Re: Trade Deadline Thread 

Post#1572 » by PhillyPhilly » Fri Mar 26, 2021 5:22 pm

spikeslovechild wrote:
PhillyPhilly wrote:A lot people can question Masai...but the fact of the matter is out of many of the "big name" front office figures like Morey, Presti etc....he's the one who's won a championship..not them. So I'm not gonna mock the guy for standing pat on Lowry as the guy clearly had a reason...he's not stupid.


I am not going to go personal on any GM other then to say I think Masai is overrated. He made a great trade to get Kawhi for one year but other then that has been pretty mediocre as a GM.

But regardless of feelings about his overall body of work when you look at this deadline he basically had a bunch of desirable assets and ways in which to approach the deadline. He had Boucher who had he made him available would have been valuable. He had Powell. He had Lowry.

I get moving Powell if you are in the midst of a rebuild. He probably has the most value. I don't get getting a RFA rather then picks back when Powell according to reports was willing to resign for 20M. I especially don't get moving Powell and keeping Lowry (with as Raptors fans believe then resigning him) if you want to retool rather then rebuild.

I don't understand what Masai did at all. I understand what Presti is doing he has a clear vision and direction he is taking his club. Toronto is stuck on a treadmill and Masai was given an opportunity to change that but didn't.


If Masai is overrated well what does that make Morey and Presti? One year of Kawhi and Toronto won a chip.. Morey had Prime Harden for years and a few years of prime Chris Paul and won nothing. Presti had Kd, Harden, Westbrook, Ibaka, Oladipo etc and alao won nothing..so with that in mind what do you think about those guys?
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Re: Trade Deadline Thread 

Post#1573 » by Eyeamok » Fri Mar 26, 2021 5:26 pm

PhillyPhilly wrote:A lot people can question Masai...but the fact of the matter is out of many of the "big name" front office figures like Morey, Presti etc....he's the one who's won a championship..not them. So I'm not gonna mock the guy for standing pat on Lowry as the guy clearly had a reason...he's not stupid.


Just because you win a championship does not make you a master deal maker on every deal going forward. Masi did a good job on getting Leonard and the injuries that GSW had helped the Raptors championship run. But sometimes you are hampered by past success. And this might have been the case here.
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Re: Trade Deadline Thread 

Post#1574 » by BullyKing » Fri Mar 26, 2021 5:28 pm

PhillyPhilly wrote:
spikeslovechild wrote:
PhillyPhilly wrote:A lot people can question Masai...but the fact of the matter is out of many of the "big name" front office figures like Morey, Presti etc....he's the one who's won a championship..not them. So I'm not gonna mock the guy for standing pat on Lowry as the guy clearly had a reason...he's not stupid.


I am not going to go personal on any GM other then to say I think Masai is overrated. He made a great trade to get Kawhi for one year but other then that has been pretty mediocre as a GM.

But regardless of feelings about his overall body of work when you look at this deadline he basically had a bunch of desirable assets and ways in which to approach the deadline. He had Boucher who had he made him available would have been valuable. He had Powell. He had Lowry.

I get moving Powell if you are in the midst of a rebuild. He probably has the most value. I don't get getting a RFA rather then picks back when Powell according to reports was willing to resign for 20M. I especially don't get moving Powell and keeping Lowry (with as Raptors fans believe then resigning him) if you want to retool rather then rebuild.

I don't understand what Masai did at all. I understand what Presti is doing he has a clear vision and direction he is taking his club. Toronto is stuck on a treadmill and Masai was given an opportunity to change that but didn't.


If Masai is overrated well what does that make Morey and Presti?


Infinitely better than Elton Brand? But joking aside, I actually agree with you. Masai is a great GM. It's not about the fact he won a title or only won a single title. He has consistently crushed late picks and low cost adds (Siakim, Powell, FVV, Boucher, etc.) which is about the most important trait a GM on a contending team with no cap space and late picks can possess in my opinion.
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Re: Trade Deadline Thread 

Post#1575 » by Eyeamok » Fri Mar 26, 2021 5:31 pm

It's funny Morey may not have pulled of any big trades but sometimes the trades you don't make are the best trades. It seems out of spite Houston did not want to trade Harden here. So the Nets got him and Houston got?
It seems like the Raptors wanted a lot for Kyle Lowry. And Morey said if you value your free agent so much you get to keep your free agent. And moved on. Other GM's might have felt they had to make a move to save face Morey seems to has a long term view. Which I am good with.
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Re: Trade Deadline Thread 

Post#1576 » by zaz102 » Fri Mar 26, 2021 5:39 pm

I think the best GMs are the ones that got LeBron. /s

IMO, it's a players league. The things that make a good GM are giving chances to become/stay a contender when you don't have a top player. Or making the best of having a top player and winning a championship. Masai has done both.

Morey's done almost the same except winning thr championship. However he did have to go against the Super Warriors teams.

All GMs have good and bad trades and picks. A few big markets have an added advantage to be a FA destination. If you want to nitpick that stuff, you can make a case for any GM being good or bad.
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Re: Trade Deadline Thread 

Post#1577 » by PhillyPhilly » Fri Mar 26, 2021 5:40 pm

BullyKing wrote:
PhillyPhilly wrote:
spikeslovechild wrote:
I am not going to go personal on any GM other then to say I think Masai is overrated. He made a great trade to get Kawhi for one year but other then that has been pretty mediocre as a GM.

But regardless of feelings about his overall body of work when you look at this deadline he basically had a bunch of desirable assets and ways in which to approach the deadline. He had Boucher who had he made him available would have been valuable. He had Powell. He had Lowry.

I get moving Powell if you are in the midst of a rebuild. He probably has the most value. I don't get getting a RFA rather then picks back when Powell according to reports was willing to resign for 20M. I especially don't get moving Powell and keeping Lowry (with as Raptors fans believe then resigning him) if you want to retool rather then rebuild.

I don't understand what Masai did at all. I understand what Presti is doing he has a clear vision and direction he is taking his club. Toronto is stuck on a treadmill and Masai was given an opportunity to change that but didn't.


If Masai is overrated well what does that make Morey and Presti?


Infinitely better than Elton Brand? But joking aside, I actually agree with you. Masai is a great GM. It's not about the fact he won a title or only won a single title. He has consistently crushed late picks and low cost adds (Siakim, Powell, FVV, Boucher, etc.) which is about the most important trait a GM on a contending team with no cap space and late picks can possess in my opinion.


Lol EB is smiling right now I think...Matisse a key piece, Tobi tearing it up and his draft pick (which turned into Maxey) is another good asset in the bank..but I digress :D .

What you said there is spot on. I admire the gm's who are capable of finding talent later in the draft and having their coaching staff develop them. Masai, being a former top rated scout, has mastered this area of the game and I think our front office has seen that and are starting to do well with this too. Matisse, Maxey, Joe, Reed etc it's very exciting to see what they could become down the road.
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Re: Trade Deadline Thread 

Post#1578 » by 76ciology » Fri Mar 26, 2021 5:40 pm

Masai is good because he didnt need lottery picks or cap space to get a boat load of talent.

It’s like having a general manager of a crappy fast food chain being to generate income of mcdonalds.

Talent > Paper Assets

Not only that, you can see that he knows what he is building with a talent that fits.

Good GMs brings out the best talent out of their paper asset.
Good coaches brings out the best out of their talent.

It’s all about maximizing the card dealt to you.

Look at both Morey and Doc’s career. Well for Morey, just try to not look at his last few seasons with the rockets. Teams usually just have a hard time finding it’s balance on the last days of it’s program.
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Re: Trade Deadline Thread 

Post#1579 » by hookshot199 » Fri Mar 26, 2021 6:04 pm

kriss73 wrote:Sam Amick, theAthletic

a source with knowledge of the talks said the Raptors indeed believed they were very close on that front late in the process and that the draft compensation was the final unresolved hurdle. The plan, the source said, was for Toronto to re-route Sixers guard Danny Green to a third team.


I remember Stein tweeting that there was talks about D.Green to GSW and the Raps to clear a spot in the roster at the very last minute.

I wonder if the offer was:

Lowry->PHI
D.Green, PHI 1st ->GSW
Oubre, [maxey or thybulle], 2nd->TOR

The point of failure was draft compensations, so I suppose a future 1st and not a 2nd to TOR.

What do you guys think about this?


And we're a worse team without Green. Maybe if we had lost nine out of ten games before the deadline, the trade would have made more sense. But from my perspective it made no sense if we had to give up Green and Thybulle. Look at the mess the Celtics find themselves in by committing to Kemba Walker, who is four years younger than Lowry. While I like Lowry - have always liked his grit and intensity - he's a midget guard. Our strength right now is our length and our defense. We had one huge hole. We need to take the ball out of Ben's hands in the final five minutes...or whenever he loses focus...and especially during playoffs. We solved that problem with Hill. If we could have made the trade without giving up Green and Thybulle, perhaps just our junk plus two future firsts or one future first and Maxey, I would have done it. We would have added value, not subtracted. But Ujiri was clearly looking to jumpstart his rebuild.
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Re: Trade Deadline Thread 

Post#1580 » by Sixerscan » Fri Mar 26, 2021 6:11 pm

76ciology wrote:Masai is good because he didnt need lottery picks or cap space to get a boat load of talent.

It’s like having a general manager of a crappy fast food chain being to generate income of mcdonalds.

Talent > Paper Assets

Not only that, you can see that he knows what he is building with a talent that fits.

Good GMs brings out the best talent out of their paper asset.
Good coaches brings out the best out of their talent.

It’s all about maximizing the card dealt to you.

Look at both Morey and Doc’s career. Well for Morey, just try to not look at his last few seasons with the rockets. Teams usually just have a hard time finding it’s balance on the last days of it’s program.


Well if you want to be deliberatively obtuse, look at the under .500 team Masai put together this year.

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