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Trade Deadline Thread

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Re: Trade Deadline Thread 

Post#1601 » by PhillyPhilly » Sat Mar 27, 2021 12:51 am

spikeslovechild wrote:
PhillyPhilly wrote:
spikeslovechild wrote:
I am not going to go personal on any GM other then to say I think Masai is overrated. He made a great trade to get Kawhi for one year but other then that has been pretty mediocre as a GM.

But regardless of feelings about his overall body of work when you look at this deadline he basically had a bunch of desirable assets and ways in which to approach the deadline. He had Boucher who had he made him available would have been valuable. He had Powell. He had Lowry.

I get moving Powell if you are in the midst of a rebuild. He probably has the most value. I don't get getting a RFA rather then picks back when Powell according to reports was willing to resign for 20M. I especially don't get moving Powell and keeping Lowry (with as Raptors fans believe then resigning him) if you want to retool rather then rebuild.

I don't understand what Masai did at all. I understand what Presti is doing he has a clear vision and direction he is taking his club. Toronto is stuck on a treadmill and Masai was given an opportunity to change that but didn't.


If Masai is overrated well what does that make Morey and Presti? One year of Kawhi and Toronto won a chip.. Morey had Prime Harden for years and a few years of prime Chris Paul and won nothing. Presti had Kd, Harden, Westbrook, Ibaka, Oladipo etc and alao won nothing..so with that in mind what do you think about those guys?


Presti is operating in a small market. Had he been GM of the lakers he'd have five championships.

In any case I don't measure GM's by championships I look at their processes and decision making because not every GM has the same opportunities (often through no fault of their own). So instead of going on about these other GM's defend Masai decision making this deadline hell forget defending just explain it.

How does it make sense to keep Lowry and move Powell? What is the direction for the Raptors currently?


So if you want to make an excuse about the small market how come the spurs had so much success??? Also why can't gm's be judged on championships? Aren't they the ones who scout and draft talent?
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Re: Trade Deadline Thread 

Post#1602 » by PhillyPhilly » Sat Mar 27, 2021 12:55 am

Negrodamus wrote:Masai, Morey, Presti, Buford are all great at their jobs. I don't think it's necessarily fair to only judge them based on championships. I honestly feel like Presti has been the best GM and hasn't won one because of personalities clashing. What the Thunder have done the past two seasons in their rebuild is actually impressive.


Yeah choosing Westbrook over Harden was a GREAT move from Presti...brilliant.
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Re: Trade Deadline Thread 

Post#1603 » by Zumramania » Sat Mar 27, 2021 1:12 am

Exactly...I get that it was stupid that he was forced to choose in the first place. But he did make a really wrong choice. And it's not like it could not be predicted at that point. I remember watching OKC back then and I thought Harden was a much smarter player than Russ and a much better long term fit for the Thunder. Both Presti and Harden made big mistakes because I think OKC would have won a chip with him.
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Re: Trade Deadline Thread 

Post#1604 » by Murray_17 » Sat Mar 27, 2021 1:16 am

PhillyPhilly wrote:
Negrodamus wrote:Masai, Morey, Presti, Buford are all great at their jobs. I don't think it's necessarily fair to only judge them based on championships. I honestly feel like Presti has been the best GM and hasn't won one because of personalities clashing. What the Thunder have done the past two seasons in their rebuild is actually impressive.


Yeah choosing Westbrook over Harden was a GREAT move from Presti...brilliant.


This is not real.

In fact Presti signed Westbrook for a standard Max when he was eligible for the "Rose rule" max, Presti forced Westbrook to leave 15 millions on the table (3 per year) just so he was able to re-sign Ibaka and Harden. Harden rejected a 55 million sheet because he wanted the max and the OKC ownership wanted to avoid the tax.

Morey offered Harden the max after the houston trade but tbf, at the time, much of the basketball world though this was an overpaid and Houston will end being a perenial 8th seed. No one, at the time, was able to see Harden career was going to be being a perenial MVP candidate for 10 years, even on the best case.

The real mistake Presti did was keeping Perk and his 8 Million contract.
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Re: Trade Deadline Thread 

Post#1605 » by PhillyPhilly » Sat Mar 27, 2021 1:18 am

nitocobola wrote:
VDT wrote:Masai has been good because of the players he can find and turn into assets. He also doesnt make dumb trades and has built a winning culture in Toronto. The Kawhi trade was more luck than anything else but he had the team ready to take advantage of such opportunity.

Had he not lucked into the Kawhi trade he would probably soon overstay his welcome in Toronto due to the perpetual treadmilling but that's the GM life. You need luck especially if your team is not a free agent destination.

I mean not only the kawhi trade.... kd and thompson got injured.

Of course that masai is a great gm, but let's not act like he is better than daryl morey because he won a ring.


Morey hasn't even gotten to a FINAL!!..let alone win a ring.
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Re: Trade Deadline Thread 

Post#1606 » by PhillyPhilly » Sat Mar 27, 2021 1:22 am

Murray_17 wrote:
PhillyPhilly wrote:
Negrodamus wrote:Masai, Morey, Presti, Buford are all great at their jobs. I don't think it's necessarily fair to only judge them based on championships. I honestly feel like Presti has been the best GM and hasn't won one because of personalities clashing. What the Thunder have done the past two seasons in their rebuild is actually impressive.


Yeah choosing Westbrook over Harden was a GREAT move from Presti...brilliant.


This is not real.

In fact Presti signed Westbrook for a standard Max when he was eligible for the "Rose rule" max, Presti forced Westbrook to leave 15 millions on the table (3 per year) just so he was able to re-sign Ibaka and Harden. Harden rejected a 55 million sheet because he wanted the max and the OKC ownership wanted to avoid the tax.

Morey offered Harden the max after the houston trade but tbf, at the time, much of the basketball world though this was an overpaid and Houston will end being a perenial 8th seed. No one, at the time, was able to see Harden career was going to be being a perenial MVP candidate for 10 years, even on the best case.

The real mistake Presti did was keeping Perk and his 8 Million contract.


YES HE DID choose Westbrook otherwise he could have traded westbrook instead and gave Harden what he wanted. It's just that simple.
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Re: Trade Deadline Thread 

Post#1607 » by spikeslovechild » Sat Mar 27, 2021 1:52 am

PhillyPhilly wrote:
Negrodamus wrote:Masai, Morey, Presti, Buford are all great at their jobs. I don't think it's necessarily fair to only judge them based on championships. I honestly feel like Presti has been the best GM and hasn't won one because of personalities clashing. What the Thunder have done the past two seasons in their rebuild is actually impressive.


Yeah choosing Westbrook over Harden was a GREAT move from Presti...brilliant.


Every GM is going to make mistakes and he never choose Harden over Westbrook his owner prevented him from keeping all three of them together the same owner that prevented him from bringing in FA to bring more talent around him which is the main reason why the Westbrook Durant duo never went anywhere.

Like I said stick him on the Lakers and he keeps all three together and it's a dynasty. In any case this isn't about Presti it's about Masai and I haven't seen one of you explain his decision making this deadline let alone attempt to defend it.
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Re: Trade Deadline Thread 

Post#1608 » by the_process » Sat Mar 27, 2021 2:05 am

Kobblehead wrote:
TTP wrote:No way is Masai overrated.


Masai is very overrated.

All he did was sleep in the house Bryan Colangelo built.

And he had nothing to do with Kawhi Leonard. Pop was pissed at Kawhi and shipped him to Canada because he thought it was the opposite of California.

And he lucked into Siakam. If he knew he was going to be good, why didnt he take him at #9 instead of drafting a bust in Yakub Purtle?


:lol:
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Re: Trade Deadline Thread 

Post#1609 » by Negrodamus » Sat Mar 27, 2021 2:08 am

I know better than to argue with someone who is being intentionally dense and only trying to dunk on everyone.
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Re: Trade Deadline Thread 

Post#1610 » by PhillyPhilly » Sat Mar 27, 2021 2:12 am

spikeslovechild wrote:
PhillyPhilly wrote:
Negrodamus wrote:Masai, Morey, Presti, Buford are all great at their jobs. I don't think it's necessarily fair to only judge them based on championships. I honestly feel like Presti has been the best GM and hasn't won one because of personalities clashing. What the Thunder have done the past two seasons in their rebuild is actually impressive.


Yeah choosing Westbrook over Harden was a GREAT move from Presti...brilliant.


Every GM is going to make mistakes and he never choose Harden over Westbrook his owner prevented him from keeping all three of them together the same owner that prevented him from bringing in FA to bring more talent around him which is the main reason why the Westbrook Durant duo never went anywhere.

Like I said stick him on the Lakers and he keeps all three together and it's a dynasty. In any case this isn't about Presti it's about Masai and I haven't seen one of you explain his decision making this deadline let alone attempt to defend it.


Again..if it's about small markets WHAT ABOUT THE SPURS??? You can't pluck the lakers out of the air and then dodge the Spurs because it undermines your argument. Also gm's make mistakes? REALLY?? How? Because folks were talking like gm's aren't allowed to make mistakes when it came to Elton Brand so that's interesting.
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Re: Trade Deadline Thread 

Post#1611 » by HardenToSixers » Sat Mar 27, 2021 2:41 am

Negrodamus wrote:

He was such an exaggeratedly great prospect (by my metrics) stats wise at Arkansas. He clearly has some eye test issues with his lack of athleticism, but the guy is a brilliant basketball player. Great team defense, smart passer, great shooting numbers. I didn't know Houston waived him.

Luka who?
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Re: Trade Deadline Thread 

Post#1612 » by HardenToSixers » Sat Mar 27, 2021 2:45 am

LloydFree wrote:
Kobblehead wrote:
TTP wrote:No way is Masai overrated.


Masai is very overrated.

All he did was sleep in the house Bryan Colangelo built.

And he had nothing to do with Kawhi Leonard. Pop was pissed at Kawhi and shipped him to Canada because he thought it was the opposite of California.

And he lucked into Siakam. If he knew he was going to be good, why didnt he take him at #9 instead of drafting a bust in Yakub Purtle?

LOL. Your boy Colangelo, passed on Siakam twice, in the same draft, for Timothe Luwawu and Furkan Korkmaz.

*** Note: Colangelo didn't have a thing to do with drafting Norman Powell in the 2nd round Or signing Fred Van Fleet as an Undrafted fee agent Or a trade deadline deal for the one Center that could slow Embiid. But let's not let details get in the way of a good fairy tale.

He did have something to do with setting us back 3 years though so in that sense he helped the Raptors
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Re: Trade Deadline Thread 

Post#1613 » by TTP » Sat Mar 27, 2021 3:10 am

LloydFree wrote:
Kobblehead wrote:
TTP wrote:No way is Masai overrated.


Masai is very overrated.

All he did was sleep in the house Bryan Colangelo built.

And he had nothing to do with Kawhi Leonard. Pop was pissed at Kawhi and shipped him to Canada because he thought it was the opposite of California.

And he lucked into Siakam. If he knew he was going to be good, why didnt he take him at #9 instead of drafting a bust in Yakub Purtle?

LOL. Your boy Colangelo, passed on Siakam twice, in the same draft, for Timothe Luwawu and Furkan Korkmaz.

*** Note: Colangelo didn't have a thing to do with drafting Norman Powell in the 2nd round Or signing Fred Van Fleet as an Undrafted fee agent Or a trade deadline deal for the one Center that could slow Embiid. But let's not let details get in the way of a good fairy tale.


Yeah the trade for Marc Gasol was another great underrated move. At the time, he defended Embiid as well as anyone, and they probably don't win that series (and championship) without him.
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Re: Trade Deadline Thread 

Post#1614 » by TTP » Sat Mar 27, 2021 3:16 am

Kobblehead wrote:
TTP wrote:No way is Masai overrated.


Masai is very overrated.

All he did was sleep in the house Bryan Colangelo built.

And he had nothing to do with Kawhi Leonard. Pop was pissed at Kawhi and shipped him to Canada because he thought it was the opposite of California.

And he lucked into Siakam. If he knew he was going to be good, why didnt he take him at #9 instead of drafting a bust in Yakub Purtle?


You make probabilistic assessments on players. You're not going to get everything right, not even close. If you're going to play the "why didn't he draft X over Y" game, you can use that to criticize every GM in the NBA for their lack of perfection (but you'd look pretty foolish in doing so).

Poeltl is pretty good too though. That pick was a hit as well - Poeltl is looking to have an above average career for a 9th pick.

Masai's long-term draft track record is pretty great. I've seen some articles examining pick return relative to long-term averages for a pick slot, and the Raptors crush, usually #1 or close to it. Here's one example: https://towardsdatascience.com/which-nba-teams-are-best-at-drafting-4131eb843dc1
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Re: Trade Deadline Thread 

Post#1615 » by LloydFree » Sat Mar 27, 2021 3:23 am

TTP wrote:
LloydFree wrote:
Kobblehead wrote:
Masai is very overrated.

All he did was sleep in the house Bryan Colangelo built.

And he had nothing to do with Kawhi Leonard. Pop was pissed at Kawhi and shipped him to Canada because he thought it was the opposite of California.

And he lucked into Siakam. If he knew he was going to be good, why didnt he take him at #9 instead of drafting a bust in Yakub Purtle?

LOL. Your boy Colangelo, passed on Siakam twice, in the same draft, for Timothe Luwawu and Furkan Korkmaz.

*** Note: Colangelo didn't have a thing to do with drafting Norman Powell in the 2nd round Or signing Fred Van Fleet as an Undrafted fee agent Or a trade deadline deal for the one Center that could slow Embiid. But let's not let details get in the way of a good fairy tale.


Yeah the trade for Marc Gasol was another great underrated move. At the time, he defended Embiid as well as anyone, and they probably don't win that series (and championship) without him.

They definitely don't win that series, if they don't get Gasol at the deadline. That was the checkmate move of the trade deadline that season.
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Re: Trade Deadline Thread 

Post#1616 » by SixthStreet » Sat Mar 27, 2021 4:54 am

Ujiri also had the intestinal fortitude to fire a successful coach he thought had reached his ceiling short of his expectations and hire a green coach with little track record which paid wild dividends (he took a LOT of heat on the firing by the talking heads on TV). You can look at Nurse's schemes after Kawhi left and know he made the right decision. He deserves a lot of credit for that in addition to consistently unearthing late first and second round contributors. Finding value for DeRozan and his contract was remarkable even if it wouldn't have been for Leonard. He was also successful in his short tenure in Denver as the lead decision maker. He's indisputable a good/great GM.
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Re: Trade Deadline Thread 

Post#1617 » by 76ciology » Sat Mar 27, 2021 7:50 am

76ciology wrote:
If LMA ends up with the Heat, a guy to watch as our back-up big is Dieng.

Dieng shoots 50% from 10-16 ft. Looks like a decent defensive C who can space the floor for Ben.

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Re: Trade Deadline Thread 

Post#1618 » by 76ciology » Sat Mar 27, 2021 8:09 am

Kobblehead wrote:
TTP wrote:No way is Masai overrated.


Masai is very overrated.

All he did was sleep in the house Bryan Colangelo built.

And he had nothing to do with Kawhi Leonard. Pop was pissed at Kawhi and shipped him to Canada because he thought it was the opposite of California.

And he lucked into Siakam. If he knew he was going to be good, why didnt he take him at #9 instead of drafting a bust in Yakub Purtle?


Partly true.

Prior to the Siakam, FVV and Kawhi era, he did sleep in the house BC built.

He eventually turned it around.

Probably just waiting for the right move to strike? Who would have thought that Demar could get you a superstar in Kawhi.

He’s good but i wouldnt say he’s on the tier as GMs like Presti.
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Re: Trade Deadline Thread 

Post#1619 » by 76ciology » Sat Mar 27, 2021 8:11 am

Why Masai didnt trade Lowry?

“A commander doesnt care about outside perception. Perception only shapes future actions.”

He doesnt want to be viewed as a pushover.

Another thing is he has first hand experience of the Kawhi trade. And being able to cement his legacy on WINNING that trade may have lead him to some bias.
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Re: Trade Deadline Thread 

Post#1620 » by Kobblehead » Sat Mar 27, 2021 2:26 pm

76ciology wrote:
Kobblehead wrote:
TTP wrote:No way is Masai overrated.


Masai is very overrated.

All he did was sleep in the house Bryan Colangelo built.

And he had nothing to do with Kawhi Leonard. Pop was pissed at Kawhi and shipped him to Canada because he thought it was the opposite of California.

And he lucked into Siakam. If he knew he was going to be good, why didnt he take him at #9 instead of drafting a bust in Yakub Purtle?


Partly true.

Prior to the Siakam, FVV and Kawhi era, he did sleep in the house BC built.

He eventually turned it around.

Probably just waiting for the right move to strike? Who would have thought that Demar could get you a superstar in Kawhi.

He’s good but i wouldnt say he’s on the tier as GMs like Presti.

I think people are overanalyzing the Kawhi trade. I literally think it boiled down to Pop sending Kawhi to Canada out of spite. I don't think it had anything to do with Massai's negotiating abilities or his shrewdness as a GM.

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