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Brand or Colangelo, who do fans dislike more?

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Who do you dislike more?

Colangelo
38
81%
Brand
9
19%
 
Total votes: 47

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Re: Brand or Colangelo, who do fans dislike more? 

Post#41 » by Kobblehead » Sat Sep 4, 2021 5:53 pm

Hell no. Trash organizations stockpile assets all the time. And almost never convert that into a half decade of 60%+ win percentage basketball. Hinkie did more harm than good. He provided the worst quality of basketball in franchise history and all-time low entertainment value, as well. And he whiffed on lotto picks left and right and drafted nearly exclusively at the bigman position even though every GM with a brain saw the league trending small.
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Re: Brand or Colangelo, who do fans dislike more? 

Post#42 » by sixers hoops » Sat Sep 4, 2021 9:29 pm

Kobblehead wrote:Hell no. Trash organizations stockpile assets all the time. And almost never convert that into a half decade of 60%+ win percentage basketball. Hinkie did more harm than good. He provided the worst quality of basketball in franchise history and all-time low entertainment value, as well. And he whiffed on lotto picks left and right and drafted nearly exclusively at the bigman position even though every GM with a brain saw the league trending small.


Yeah. I wanted them to take Okafor so the Knicks didn’t get him; however, I don’t watch college basketball and am not paid to be a pro GM. In retrospect, the Okafor pick was just dumb. I pictured him being a prime Demarcus Cousins offensive force, but he sucked.
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Re: Brand or Colangelo, who do fans dislike more? 

Post#43 » by TTP » Sun Sep 5, 2021 12:14 am

Kobblehead wrote:Hell no. Trash organizations stockpile assets all the time. And almost never convert that into a half decade of 60%+ win percentage basketball. Hinkie did more harm than good. He provided the worst quality of basketball in franchise history and all-time low entertainment value, as well. And he whiffed on lotto picks left and right and drafted nearly exclusively at the bigman position even though every GM with a brain saw the league trending small.


The bolded is so disingenuous and ignorant because it completely ignores the magnitude of the stockpiling. It's absolutely not "all the time" that a team creates an asset pile like we had.

Has any team in recent memory stockpiled to the extent that we did? There's pretty much no comparison, so you can't just lump it together with other teams that have accrued assets to a much lesser degree and had substantially less success (which is extremely relevant given the positive correlation between number of future assets and future success).

The main teams in recent years that come close are the Ainge Celtics, which had a greater starting point than we did, and actually have managed to convert it into a half decade of 60% win percentage basketball, and current OKC, which will be interesting to see the results of down the line.

Not to mention that the single most positively impactful decision made with those assets occurred with Hinkie in charge, not Colangelo or Brand. There's no series of moves that Colangelo/Brand made that were more responsible for that 60% win percentage than the drafting of Embiid. I look forward to seeing which mental gymnastics you employ to argue otherwise.
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Re: Brand or Colangelo, who do fans dislike more? 

Post#44 » by TTP » Sun Sep 5, 2021 12:15 am

The drafting of bigs argument has always been a bad one too. These are the guys that would have passed on Embiid because Nerlens was on the roster.

The Okafor pick wasn't bad because he was a big. It was a bad pick because he wasn't a good player. If there was another Embiid level talent available in 2015, you'd be foolish to pass up on him just because you drafted Embiid the previous year (who was hurt and expected to miss a second season). If KAT gets injured pre-draft and falls to 3, are these guys passing on him too?
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Re: Brand or Colangelo, who do fans dislike more? 

Post#45 » by mjkvol » Sun Sep 5, 2021 1:25 am

Kobblehead wrote:Hell no. Trash organizations stockpile assets all the time. And almost never convert that into a half decade of 60%+ win percentage basketball. Hinkie did more harm than good. He provided the worst quality of basketball in franchise history and all-time low entertainment value, as well. And he whiffed on lotto picks left and right and drafted nearly exclusively at the bigman position even though every GM with a brain saw the league trending small.


His one dreadful move was the Okafor pick. I was literally watching that draft saying "he can't possibly take that guy, he has bust written all over him". Just an awful pick. Otherwise I don't get your rationale at all, he had this organization set up, and we'll never know what he might have done if allowed to. Oh, and who drafted Embiid, who had more to do with any success this franchise has had in the last few years than every other move combined?
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Re: Brand or Colangelo, who do fans dislike more? 

Post#46 » by DWhiteMamba » Sun Sep 5, 2021 3:37 am

I've made alot of mistakes in draft banter before, but Okafor was not one of them. I hated him before he was drafted and thought he had no place in the modern NBA. Hinkie was dumb to take him, for all that I think Hinkie's overall strategy was good. He did whiff some moves badly. Obviously he looks like Einstein compared to these 2 jokers.
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Re: Brand or Colangelo, who do fans dislike more? 

Post#47 » by Kobblehead » Sun Sep 5, 2021 11:31 am

Yeah, Hinkie was ultimately a failure. Like I said, he provided zero on-court success and zero on-court entertainment for fans. And his internal process was a failure because of his inability to see where the league was trending in terms of going small. Wasting all of the lotto picks he did on bigman is pretty baffling for someone who is supposed to be on the forefront. Truth is, Hinkie was in over his skis and just didn't appear to understand modern basketball. All his picks were bigman and athletic defenders that can't shoot. The literal opposite of what modern basketball has become.

I do think we need to acknowledge and respect the multiyear stretch of great product/entertainment that Colangelo/Brand built.

Again, there are several organizations at a given time that are stuck in the lotto for several years in a row and stockpile tons of premier assets. And VERY FEW of those teams ever convert those assets into a half-decade of 60%+ win basketball. Say what you want about Colangelo/Brand, but they did accomplish that rare feat.
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Re: Brand or Colangelo, who do fans dislike more? 

Post#48 » by TTP » Sun Sep 5, 2021 6:21 pm

Kobblehead wrote:Yeah, Hinkie was ultimately a failure. Like I said, he provided zero on-court success and zero on-court entertainment for fans. And his internal process was a failure because of his inability to see where the league was trending in terms of going small. Wasting all of the lotto picks he did on bigman is pretty baffling for someone who is supposed to be on the forefront. Truth is, Hinkie was in over his skis and just didn't appear to understand modern basketball. All his picks were bigman and athletic defenders that can't shoot. The literal opposite of what modern basketball has become.

I do think we need to acknowledge and respect the multiyear stretch of great product/entertainment that Colangelo/Brand built.

Again, there are several organizations at a given time that are stuck in the lotto for several years in a row and stockpile tons of premier assets. And VERY FEW of those teams ever convert those assets into a half-decade of 60%+ win basketball. Say what you want about Colangelo/Brand, but they did accomplish that rare feat.


The MVP this year was a bigman, and the Finals MVP who won the previous two MVPs is both a bigman and an athletic defender that can't shoot. Both #1 seeds this year were lead by bigs as well, one of which can't shoot.
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Re: Brand or Colangelo, who do fans dislike more? 

Post#49 » by 76ciology » Sun Sep 5, 2021 7:30 pm

Personally, i believe it’s a good rule to favor other positions than a center with a top 5-6 pick, but you make exemptions for it if he has upside to be a superstar. I believe Sixerscan and I discussed about you can’t just limit certain basketball positions in certain draft positions.

And for Jokic’s case, I think it’s a very low probability case that you’ll be right 98 time out of 100 when you pass up a jokic type prospect because most times it would just end up like hernangomez or cody zeller.

The most valuable commodity in the draft is upside. And our whole mindset is getting multiple franchise players in the draft. So I dont mind our chances with a top 6 pick for Giannis but i wouldnt use a top 6 pick for Jokic.

While I dont find that Okafor and Noel have any upside to be a superstar that I find them to be bad bets as picks made with a top 3-6 pick.

I also think that Hinkie made a blunder passing up Giannis in 2013. When there were almost a handful of GM looking to draft him (hammond, ujiri, presti and ferry). It could be a honest mistake or he didnt do his homework. Even Morey said he was surprised that Hinkie passed him because Giannis had a high upside.
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Re: Brand or Colangelo, who do fans dislike more? 

Post#50 » by TTP » Sun Sep 5, 2021 8:14 pm

76ciology wrote:
I also think that Hinkie made a blunder passing up Giannis in 2013. When there were almost a handful of GM looking to draft him (hammond, ujiri, presti and ferry). It could be a honest mistake or he didnt do his homework. Even Morey said he was surprised that Hinkie passed him because Giannis had a high upside.


This is typical revisionist nonsense. If Presti was looking to draft Giannis, he would have done so with pick 12. Giannis went 15th - any team in the league could have traded up if they really wanted him.

Going on about how much everyone wanted Giannis, who do you think you are? Danny Ainge?
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Re: Brand or Colangelo, who do fans dislike more? 

Post#51 » by HotelVitale » Sun Sep 5, 2021 10:11 pm

Kobblehead wrote:Hell no. Trash organizations stockpile assets all the time. And almost never convert that into a half decade of 60%+ win percentage basketball. Hinkie did more harm than good. He provided the worst quality of basketball in franchise history and all-time low entertainment value, as well. And he whiffed on lotto picks left and right and drafted nearly exclusively at the bigman position even though every GM with a brain saw the league trending small.

As a fan I legitimately enjoyed the Process years far far more than the couple before that. Without any question. I liked being the team going for the bold experiment, loved following the prospects and the no-names as the developed and cycled through, I liked going to the games for $5, I liked making fun of ourselves on here and arguing about the strategy, loved following all Hinkie's maneuvers to nab assets (maybe you forgot how great a buzz it was to hose the Kings or Suns/Lakers on those deals). And of course it was great to come out of that the way we did.

It's definitely a higher entertainment value to have a contender who could legit win a title (I've expereienced that twice in my life) but I honestly thought the Process years were significantly better for me as a fan than a bunch of other years I've experienced.

Also this is the main thing I always repeat about the Process: Hinkie and his scouts didn't 'whiff' on lotto picks left and right, they did about average and that was the whole point of the Process--if you go into rebuilding pretending that you're going to nail most picks just because you're special and smart, you're likely to flop. Most draft picks don't work out no matter where you're picking, and you can ask any of the Kings, Pistons, Magic, Hawks, Hornets, Knicks, Bulls, etc from 2014-2020 how that works out.
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Re: Brand or Colangelo, who do fans dislike more? 

Post#52 » by yuuby » Sun Sep 5, 2021 10:27 pm

Morey. He is the biggest clown of the 3. He is the one who has eroded Ben Simmons trade value under his watch.
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Re: Brand or Colangelo, who do fans dislike more? 

Post#53 » by Kobblehead » Sun Sep 5, 2021 11:51 pm

Nah, Morey is actually winning games and has given us a good product to watch. Much like Colangelo and Brand.
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Re: Brand or Colangelo, who do fans dislike more? 

Post#54 » by DCasey91 » Mon Sep 6, 2021 12:44 am

Kobblehead wrote:Yeah, Hinkie was ultimately a failure. Like I said, he provided zero on-court success and zero on-court entertainment for fans. And his internal process was a failure because of his inability to see where the league was trending in terms of going small. Wasting all of the lotto picks he did on bigman is pretty baffling for someone who is supposed to be on the forefront. Truth is, Hinkie was in over his skis and just didn't appear to understand modern basketball. All his picks were bigman and athletic defenders that can't shoot. The literal opposite of what modern basketball has become.

I do think we need to acknowledge and respect the multiyear stretch of great product/entertainment that Colangelo/Brand built.

Again, there are several organizations at a given time that are stuck in the lotto for several years in a row and stockpile tons of premier assets. And VERY FEW of those teams ever convert those assets into a half-decade of 60%+ win basketball. Say what you want about Colangelo/Brand, but they did accomplish that rare feat.


Hinkie got our championship cornerstone. Brand and Colangelo and Brown made horrible moves and poor draft selections.

Please Kobble get a tissue.

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Re: Brand or Colangelo, who do fans dislike more? 

Post#55 » by Black Mage » Mon Sep 6, 2021 1:45 pm

I am not even sure how this is a question. The Collar is human scum.

Brand was inexperienced, wasn't his fault ownership was stupid or wanted to be sure to have their say too.
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Re: Brand or Colangelo, who do fans dislike more? 

Post#56 » by sixers hoops » Mon Sep 6, 2021 3:41 pm

TTP wrote:
Kobblehead wrote:Hell no. Trash organizations stockpile assets all the time. And almost never convert that into a half decade of 60%+ win percentage basketball. Hinkie did more harm than good. He provided the worst quality of basketball in franchise history and all-time low entertainment value, as well. And he whiffed on lotto picks left and right and drafted nearly exclusively at the bigman position even though every GM with a brain saw the league trending small.


The bolded is so disingenuous and ignorant because it completely ignores the magnitude of the stockpiling. It's absolutely not "all the time" that a team creates an asset pile like we had.

Has any team in recent memory stockpiled to the extent that we did? There's pretty much no comparison, so you can't just lump it together with other teams that have accrued assets to a much lesser degree and had substantially less success (which is extremely relevant given the positive correlation between number of future assets and future success).

The main teams in recent years that come close are the Ainge Celtics, which had a greater starting point than we did, and actually have managed to convert it into a half decade of 60% win percentage basketball, and current OKC, which will be interesting to see the results of down the line.

Not to mention that the single most positively impactful decision made with those assets occurred with Hinkie in charge, not Colangelo or Brand. There's no series of moves that Colangelo/Brand made that were more responsible for that 60% win percentage than the drafting of Embiid. I look forward to seeing which mental gymnastics you employ to argue otherwise.


I feel like OKC has matched Hinkie’s stockpile with the George, Westbrook, Horford, Kemba, Paul, etc trades.
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Re: Brand or Colangelo, who do fans dislike more? 

Post#57 » by sixers hoops » Mon Sep 6, 2021 3:47 pm

The three moves that really crippled the process:

Hinkie drafting Okafor

BC trading the three pick and a future first to move up for Fultz

Elton trading Shameet, 2 firsts and a second for Tobias, and then re-signing him to the max contract. That is a lot of resources and salary cap space to lock in Tobias Harris for max years.

I think the most crippling move was the Fultz trade. If you assume we take Tatum at three, we may have been to the finals by now.
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Re: Brand or Colangelo, who do fans dislike more? 

Post#58 » by Kobblehead » Mon Sep 6, 2021 3:50 pm

One of the most crippling moves of the process was Hinkie trading Jrue Holiday right at the beginning.

Jrue was a dribble-shoot-pass-defend guy with great intangibles. The literal perfect building block for something that could eventually be special. And people acting like we had to trade Jrue in order to lose games are kidding themselves.
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Re: Brand or Colangelo, who do fans dislike more? 

Post#59 » by 76ciology » Mon Sep 6, 2021 4:18 pm

Kobblehead wrote:One of the most crippling moves of the process was Hinkie trading Jrue Holiday right at the beginning.

Jrue was a dribble-shoot-pass-defend guy with great intangibles. The literal perfect building block for something that could eventually be special. And people acting like we had to trade Jrue in order to lose games are kidding themselves.


Yup. I actually mentioned this but i dont want to argue with people anymore so i took it back and im glad u mentioned it.

I love the trade back then.

Jrue was an allstar guard who’s just 22 years old back then (trey burke and Oladipo were just a year younger back then) on an era where guards are an appreciating asset. While we draft a big who can’t match-up on certain bigs that prevents him from being a starter until now, on a league that has suppressed the value of defense and is going away from the scheme of bigs playing goalie on defense.

If Maxey is in the 2013 draft, i wouldnt select him over Noel even if Noel didnt went down with the ACL.

And Jrue would have been the number one pick of that draft. He’s just a year older than the top perimeter players in that draft.
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Re: Brand or Colangelo, who do fans dislike more? 

Post#60 » by sixers hoops » Mon Sep 6, 2021 5:04 pm

Kobblehead wrote:One of the most crippling moves of the process was Hinkie trading Jrue Holiday right at the beginning.

Jrue was a dribble-shoot-pass-defend guy with great intangibles. The literal perfect building block for something that could eventually be special. And people acting like we had to trade Jrue in order to lose games are kidding themselves.


Good point. I loved the trade at the time. I figured we weren’t going to compete for three or four years anyway, and Noel, another likely lottery pick, and significant cap room cleared would ultimately add more to the program. However, it ended up being Noel, Saric, and we couldnt get free agents so we eventually gave JJ a one year $25 million contract. If Noel turned into a Marcus Camby or Theo Ratliff, I like the move a lot more lol

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