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Brand or Colangelo, who do fans dislike more?

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Who do you dislike more?

Colangelo
38
81%
Brand
9
19%
 
Total votes: 47

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Re: Brand or Colangelo, who do fans dislike more? 

Post#61 » by TTP » Mon Sep 6, 2021 5:10 pm

sixers hoops wrote:The three moves that really crippled the process:

Hinkie drafting Okafor

BC trading the three pick and a future first to move up for Fultz

Elton trading Shameet, 2 firsts and a second for Tobias, and then re-signing him to the max contract. That is a lot of resources and salary cap space to lock in Tobias Harris for max years.

I think the most crippling move was the Fultz trade. If you assume we take Tatum at three, we may have been to the finals by now.


The most crippling move was not committing to Jimmy Butler. We let a fringe top 10 player walk in favor of a guy who's top 50ish. You don't get chances at top 10 players often and the only other chance we had at one was a Harden trade, which seemed unlikely and might have ended with Harden walking for Brooklyn like Kawhi did with Toronto.

Butler was basically the one that got away.

On a lesser note, I wanted us to go for Khris Middleton after he got injured. His production pre-injury far exceeded his mainstream recognition. There was a window before he signed his extension where we had the assets to go for a buy low. He'd have been an elite fit as the half court creator we always needed.

Instead we went with Butler and Harris and ultimately ended up with Harris. Harris is a good player, a top 50ish player, but he's not a great fit with Embiid and he's not the third star you envision getting when you have a boatload of tradeable assets and two blossoming stars.
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Re: Brand or Colangelo, who do fans dislike more? 

Post#62 » by TTP » Mon Sep 6, 2021 5:12 pm

sixers hoops wrote:
Kobblehead wrote:One of the most crippling moves of the process was Hinkie trading Jrue Holiday right at the beginning.

Jrue was a dribble-shoot-pass-defend guy with great intangibles. The literal perfect building block for something that could eventually be special. And people acting like we had to trade Jrue in order to lose games are kidding themselves.


Good point. I loved the trade at the time. I figured we weren’t going to compete for three or four years anyway, and Noel, another likely lottery pick, and significant cap room cleared would ultimately add more to the program. However, it ended up being Noel, Saric, and we couldnt get free agents so we eventually gave JJ a one year $25 million contract. If Noel turned into a Marcus Camby or Theo Ratliff, I like the move a lot more lol


It's still a good trade. We had a 4 game lead on the Magic. Jrue was probably worth ~8 wins that year. Keeping him potentially costs us Embiid, and that trade turned into a series of trades. We squeezed a lot of value that all stemmed from Jrue, both in the expected value of our own draft and all of the subsequent picks we landed.

Trading back for Jrue once Embiid stepped on the court would have been viable though. He would have been an elite fit.
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Re: Brand or Colangelo, who do fans dislike more? 

Post#63 » by sixers hoops » Mon Sep 6, 2021 5:15 pm

TTP wrote:
sixers hoops wrote:The three moves that really crippled the process:

Hinkie drafting Okafor

BC trading the three pick and a future first to move up for Fultz

Elton trading Shameet, 2 firsts and a second for Tobias, and then re-signing him to the max contract. That is a lot of resources and salary cap space to lock in Tobias Harris for max years.

I think the most crippling move was the Fultz trade. If you assume we take Tatum at three, we may have been to the finals by now.


The most crippling move was not committing to Jimmy Butler. We let a fringe top 10 player walk in favor of a guy who's top 50ish. You don't get chances at top 10 players often and the only other chance we had at one was a Harden trade, which seemed unlikely and might have ended with Harden walking for Brooklyn like Kawhi did with Toronto.

Butler was basically the one that got away.

On a lesser note, I wanted us to go for Khris Middleton after he got injured. His production pre-injury far exceeded his mainstream recognition. There was a window before he signed his extension where we had the assets to go for a buy low. He'd have been an elite fit as the half court creator we always needed.

Instead we went with Butler and Harris and ultimately ended up with Harris. Harris is a good player, a top 50ish player, but he's not a great fit with Embiid and he's not the third star you envision getting when you have a boatload of tradeable assets and two blossoming stars.


In retrospect, I was done with Jimmy as well at the time. I thought he was a horrible fit with Ben, and I knew Ben wasn’t going anywhere.

Elton had a historically rough week letting Butler walk, and committing to Harris and Horford.
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Re: Brand or Colangelo, who do fans dislike more? 

Post#64 » by Kobblehead » Mon Sep 6, 2021 7:51 pm

Did we really want to supermax a dinosaur in Jimmy Butler, though?
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Re: Brand or Colangelo, who do fans dislike more? 

Post#65 » by Bankai » Mon Sep 6, 2021 9:04 pm

Colangelo's only misstep as GM was trading up for Fultz, but even back then, people were fine with that. The whole email thing has nothing to do with his ability as GM. Brand signed players to massive deals that clearly they didnt deserve. You guys should hate Brand more.
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Re: Brand or Colangelo, who do fans dislike more? 

Post#66 » by mjkvol » Tue Sep 7, 2021 1:23 am

sixers hoops wrote:I think the most crippling move was the Fultz trade. If you assume we take Tatum at three, we may have been to the finals by now.


What made it even more painful was the word that Tatum was the only player Ainge was taking, regardless where he picked. Getting fleeced like that was bad enough, but having it be Ainge and the Celtics was the icing.
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Re: Brand or Colangelo, who do fans dislike more? 

Post#67 » by Stanford » Tue Sep 7, 2021 2:46 am

Bankai wrote:Colangelo's only misstep as GM was trading up for Fultz.


Leaving Fultz out of it, Colangelo didn't advance the program during his tenure. He took no swings on creators, instead using capspace for multiple years on guys like Redick (good acquisition, albeit an overpay), Jerryd Bayless, Gerald Henderson and Sergio Rodriguez.This left abomination-GM and later Brand at a place in the timeline where there was pressure to compete for a title with a flawed team. The roster and asset-pool should have been greater than it was and Brand was put in a tough situation to acquire some (a situation he was not equipped to handle). Colangelo may not have handed out any bad contracts or made any atrocious deals but he had a pressure-free (in terms of winning now) situation in which to set up the team for future success and he completely failed.
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Re: Brand or Colangelo, who do fans dislike more? 

Post#68 » by Sixerscan » Tue Sep 7, 2021 4:36 pm

Kobblehead wrote:Did we really want to supermax a dinosaur in Jimmy Butler, though?

1. It wouldn't have been a super-max.
2. He's already been extended off of the contract he got.
3. If you don't want to sign a 30 year old Jimmy Butler don't trade assets for a 30 year old Jimmy Butler, like the other 28 GMs decided not to do.

The whole point is that Colangelo and Brand/the collaborative burnt through almost all of Hinkie's assets for short term gain and the end result was overpaying Tobias Harris and Al Horford.

All of this is just rehashing obvious points that we're been through a thousand times and you're just being obtuse, of course.
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Re: Brand or Colangelo, who do fans dislike more? 

Post#69 » by Wilfried » Tue Sep 7, 2021 4:49 pm

I dislike Colangelo the most, but I really like Barbara Bottini and what she did for our organisation
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Re: Brand or Colangelo, who do fans dislike more? 

Post#70 » by FlyingArrow » Tue Sep 7, 2021 5:53 pm

Sixerscan wrote:
Kobblehead wrote:Did we really want to supermax a dinosaur in Jimmy Butler, though?

1. It wouldn't have been a super-max.
2. He's already been extended off of the contract he got.
3. If you don't want to sign a 30 year old Jimmy Butler don't trade assets for a 30 year old Jimmy Butler, like the other 28 GMs decided not to do.

The whole point is that Colangelo and Brand/the collaborative burnt through almost all of Hinkie's assets for short term gain and the end result was overpaying Tobias Harris and Al Horford.

All of this is just rehashing obvious points that we're been through a thousand times and you're just being obtuse, of course.


I'm still not sure we had the option to keep Jimmy. But point #3 is great - we traded for Jimmy so we should have signed him. If he was never an option, then we did okay in the sign-and-trade... better than getting nothing. But running it back (Butler, Harris, and JJ) was the move to make.
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Re: Brand or Colangelo, who do fans dislike more? 

Post#71 » by 76ciology » Tue Sep 7, 2021 7:24 pm

My guess is if we retain Jimmy, we would have to trade Ben.

And if we trade Ben, we’re likely to be involved in the DLo-wiggins deal where we get either DLo or Wiggins and 7th pick for Ben.
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Re: Brand or Colangelo, who do fans dislike more? 

Post#72 » by Kobblehead » Tue Sep 7, 2021 9:34 pm

Sixerscan wrote:
Kobblehead wrote:Did we really want to supermax a dinosaur in Jimmy Butler, though?

1. It wouldn't have been a super-max.
2. He's already been extended off of the contract he got.
3. If you don't want to sign a 30 year old Jimmy Butler don't trade assets for a 30 year old Jimmy Butler, like the other 28 GMs decided not to do.

The whole point is that Colangelo and Brand/the collaborative burnt through almost all of Hinkie's assets for short term gain and the end result was overpaying Tobias Harris and Al Horford.

All of this is just rehashing obvious points that we're been through a thousand times and you're just being obtuse, of course.


....we paid a rental price for Jimmy Butler.....so what's the big deal about treating him like a rental? You act like we gave up 3 first rounder for him. We gave them two role players for him.

LOL at short term gain. We've been a 60% win percentage team for nearly a half decade at this point. Colangelo/Brand built the best period of success modern Sixers history. You should thank them for their service instead of disparaging them for a couple mistakes they made along the way. You're just being ungrateful and petty.
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Re: Brand or Colangelo, who do fans dislike more? 

Post#73 » by Stanford » Tue Sep 7, 2021 9:39 pm

lol
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Re: Brand or Colangelo, who do fans dislike more? 

Post#74 » by Kobblehead » Tue Sep 7, 2021 10:04 pm

Real talk, Ben Simmons' playoff stats this year don't look that bad when you compare them to Jimmy Butler's.
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Re: Brand or Colangelo, who do fans dislike more? 

Post#75 » by Sixerscan » Tue Sep 7, 2021 10:38 pm

Kobblehead wrote:
Sixerscan wrote:
Kobblehead wrote:Did we really want to supermax a dinosaur in Jimmy Butler, though?

1. It wouldn't have been a super-max.
2. He's already been extended off of the contract he got.
3. If you don't want to sign a 30 year old Jimmy Butler don't trade assets for a 30 year old Jimmy Butler, like the other 28 GMs decided not to do.

The whole point is that Colangelo and Brand/the collaborative burnt through almost all of Hinkie's assets for short term gain and the end result was overpaying Tobias Harris and Al Horford.

All of this is just rehashing obvious points that we're been through a thousand times and you're just being obtuse, of course.


....we paid a rental price for Jimmy Butler.....so what's the big deal about treating him like a rental? You act like we gave up 3 first rounder for him. We gave them two role players for him.

LOL at short term gain. We've been a 60% win percentage team for nearly a half decade at this point. Colangelo/Brand built the best period of success modern Sixers history. You should thank them for their service instead of disparaging them for a couple mistakes they made along the way. You're just being ungrateful and petty.


Sigh... within 18 months of that trade Covington was traded for 2 firsts and Saric was traded to move up from 11 to 6. So yeah outside of as usual you not knowing what you are talking about as to the value of basketball players there's some pretty clear evidence that we basically traded three firsts for him. That's actually an oddly specific encapsulation of the player value we traded for him, kudos I guess.

Obviously that 60% win percentage is largely because of Embiid. And the Harris and Butler trades were Brand/ownership using assets collected by Hinkie to outbid everyone (which some would call overpaying) for them. Ditto the Fultz trade for that matter. Again this is all pretty straightforward and you are being difficult because you are bored or whatever. I see right through it.
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Re: Brand or Colangelo, who do fans dislike more? 

Post#76 » by Kobblehead » Tue Sep 7, 2021 10:51 pm

Sixerscan wrote:Sigh... within 18 months of that trade Covington was traded for 2 firsts and Saric was traded to move up from 11 to 6. So yeah outside of as usual you not knowing what you are talking about as to the value of basketball players there's some pretty clear evidence that we basically traded three firsts for him. That's actually an oddly specific encapsulation of the player value we traded for him, kudos I guess.

Obviously that 60% win percentage is largely because of Embiid. And the Harris and Butler trades were Brand/ownership using assets collected by Hinkie to outbid everyone (which some would call overpaying) for them. Again this is all pretty straightforward and you are being difficult because you are bored or whatever. I see right through it.

Go look at every star player trade of the last 5 years. Please find one example of one where a team gave up less than we did for Jimmy Butler. You're being ridiculous right now.

Seems like you had more fun watching the team when we had Hinkie, a GM that couldn't evaluate personnel and provided the worst entertainment and success rate in NBA history. I'm not chronically dissatisfied, though. I actually enjoy the success that Colangelo/Brand built and what Morey is carrying over. Maybe you should learn to have more fun and enjoy this fantastic ride while we're still getting this great product.

Go look at the year by year of this franchise history. We don't get runs like this often. Have fun and enjoy is instead of being sad and ungrateful.
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Re: Brand or Colangelo, who do fans dislike more? 

Post#77 » by Kobblehead » Tue Sep 7, 2021 11:25 pm

Remember when Hinkie let Ish Smith walk instead of just giving him the same 1 year, $1.1m offer he got on the open market? And then he would up later trading two second round picks to re-acquire him for a total of 50 games before letting him walk again?

Why did Sam burn through some of his own assets for short term gain?
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Re: Brand or Colangelo, who do fans dislike more? 

Post#78 » by Lou_23 » Wed Sep 8, 2021 6:12 am

Kobblehead wrote:Remember when Hinkie let Ish Smith walk instead of just giving him the same 1 year, $1.1m offer he got on the open market? And then he would up later trading two second round picks to re-acquire him for a total of 50 games before letting him walk again?

Why did Sam burn through some of his own assets for short term gain?
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Re: Brand or Colangelo, who do fans dislike more? 

Post#79 » by 76ciology » Wed Sep 8, 2021 6:57 am

I also liked the Jimmy and Tobias deal, both were great return of value that way may never see. Jimmy trade may even be one of the best trades in franchise history by getting a top tier star for two role players.

The “win now” mode by trading for both, was necessary. Teams dont pass that kind of opportunities.

I think in the JJ Redick Podcast, he asked Danny Green about our squad. Danny Green said that the Raps team feared our squad more than the Warriors squad back then (i dont know if he’s factoring KD going down but I do think he is).

I feel like the mistake was after that season we should have tanked instead. Brand just didnt know how this thing works. It’s like a highly volatile stock, once it gets overbought it has to crash and take a breather, accumulate then pump again.

Look at the Warriors squad, after they built that godly team with KD. They crashed hard, took a breather then looks like ready to compete again next season.

It’s a cycle. You can’t just keep competing every year for a decade like the Spurs. It’s just not possible with today’s landscape. Players are too empowered while teams are overpaying to win now like the world is about to end soon.
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Re: Brand or Colangelo, who do fans dislike more? 

Post#80 » by mjkvol » Wed Sep 8, 2021 12:23 pm

76ciology wrote:I also liked the Jimmy and Tobias deal, both were great return of value that way may never see. Jimmy trade may even be one of the best trades in franchise history by getting a top tier star for two role players.

The “win now” mode by trading for both, was necessary. Teams dont pass that kind of opportunities.

I think in the JJ Redick Podcast, he asked Danny Green about our squad. Danny Green said that the Raps team feared our squad more than the Warriors squad back then (i dont know if he’s factoring KD going down but I do think he is).

I feel like the mistake was after that season we should have tanked instead. Brand just didnt know how this thing works. It’s like a highly volatile stock, once it gets overbought it has to crash and take a breather, accumulate then pump again.

Look at the Warriors squad, after they built that godly team with KD. They crashed hard, took a breather then looks like ready to compete again next season.

It’s a cycle. You can’t just keep competing every year for a decade like the Spurs. It’s just not possible with today’s landscape. Players are too empowered while teams are overpaying to win now like the world is about to end soon.


But there's one huge and obvious difference between the Warriors after Durant and us - they had won three titles and had a run of success like few teams in modern history and their fan base could accept the tank and breather, especially given the severity of Klay's injury.

The Sixers on the other hand had tanked and asked for fan patience for several years, and were just experiencing the 'fruits' of all those years of sacrifice. Telling your fan base you're going to take yet another breather after a loss as excruciating as the Toronto one was would be tantamount to franchise suicide.

Embiid and Simmons were established NBA stars just entering their prime, which is when we should be in 'win now' mode annually. The problem after Toronto wasn't that we continued to go all in, it was the method used and the decisions made to keep the team at championship level.

Allowing Butler to walk, maxing Harris, and bringing in Horford to go 'bully ball' at a time in the NBA where that strategy was doomed to fail were what was done horribly wrong. Having a competent GM and coach that understood how you win in the NBA in this new era at that juncture might have made all the difference, but alas we were done in by people in power who had no business making those kinds of critical, franchise altering decisions.

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