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The Official Fire Doc Rivers Thread

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Re: The Official Fire Doc Rivers Thread 

Post#61 » by 76ciology » Tue Nov 2, 2021 4:19 am

Murray_17 wrote:
76ciology wrote:
My point is.. seth doesnt need Embiid nor Ben to be good (play JJ’s role).


JJ's usage and scoring was the best of his career by playing off Embiid, by the same token Seth shots worse from 3 without Embiid out there and it's notoriously worse.

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/seth-curry-with-and-without-embiid-in-76ers

Seth is amazing, but he has and slow as **** release so he needs to play off screens or be open to take 3's. Today he penetrated at will and took open midrange shots because the Blazers defense sucks.


Yeah i agree with everything you said.

Seth is amazing. Biid makes Seth better. But I do think Doc also plays a role in Seth’s improved play.

Doc’s entire career is mostly about elevating players’ performance that is what you need the most in today’s era where players can’t be controlled.

If Udoka is our headcoach, while Doc is the Celts headcoach, i think Celts would be one of the top teams in the league while we may not be this good.
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Re: The Official Fire Doc Rivers Thread 

Post#62 » by Murray_17 » Tue Nov 2, 2021 4:24 am

76ciology wrote:
Seth is amazing. Biid makes Seth better. But I do think Doc also plays a role in Seth’s improved play.



How?
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Re: The Official Fire Doc Rivers Thread 

Post#63 » by 76ciology » Tue Nov 2, 2021 4:33 am

Murray_17 wrote:
76ciology wrote:
Seth is amazing. Biid makes Seth better. But I do think Doc also plays a role in Seth’s improved play.



How?


Like in today’s game when Embiid was not playing and how most of our guys and most of the players Doc coach had career years with him.

It’s not even just Seth, you can say the same thing about Tobi, Shake, Kork, Niang, Embiid and Thybulle. He also has revived both Green and Drummond’s career. He turned our team to be one of the top PnR team lead by two average guards in Maxey and Korkmaz.

You dont just have to look on our team to see that this isnt a fluke this goes back 20 years of sample size in Doc’s career from that heart and hustle squad with the Magic that won him coach of the year, championship with the Celts, lob city with multiple guys having their best career with doc, Galo-Tobi lead clips squad to our team right now.

Im not denying the game 7 blunders, where I think he has some fault but variance also plays its part. But I also dont think its undeniable that he can bring out the best in players.
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Re: The Official Fire Doc Rivers Thread 

Post#64 » by Murray_17 » Tue Nov 2, 2021 4:41 am

76ciology wrote:Like in today’s game when Embiid was not playing and how most of our guys and most of the players Doc coach had career years with him.

It’s not even just Seth, you can say the same thing about Tobi, Shake, Kork, Niang, Embiid and Thybulle. He also has revived both Green and Drummond’s career.


Not trying to be an ass, but the first part of that comment is like saying nothing.

Shake is also playing the worst basketball of his life under doc and Niang is posting similar numbers than in the Jazz by minute production, i just don't understand how Morey got him on that contract. Thybulle is the same player that he was in his rookie season.

Saying Doc revived Danny Green is revisionist too, guy was a productive starter in the NBA championship team before coming to Philly. Drummond is playing limited minutes by force because he's basically playing to stay in the league and he has played only 7 games this season, so saying stuff like "revived career" is super premature.
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Re: The Official Fire Doc Rivers Thread 

Post#65 » by 76ciology » Tue Nov 2, 2021 4:47 am

Murray_17 wrote:
76ciology wrote:Like in today’s game when Embiid was not playing and how most of our guys and most of the players Doc coach had career years with him.

It’s not even just Seth, you can say the same thing about Tobi, Shake, Kork, Niang, Embiid and Thybulle. He also has revived both Green and Drummond’s career.


Not trying to be an ass, but the first part of that comment is like saying nothing.

Shake is also playing the worst basketball of his life under doc and Niang is posting similar numbers than in the Jazz by minute production, i just don't understand how Morey got him on that contract. Thybulle is the same player that he was in his rookie season.

Saying Doc revived Danny Green is revisionist too, guy was a productive starter in the NBA championship team before coming to Philly. Drummond is playing limited minutes by force because he's basically playing to stay in the league and he has played only 7 games this season, so saying stuff like "revived career" is super premature.


Shake’s best scoring seasons were with doc (+-12ppg)
Niang averaged more pts per 36 on our team than the Jazz (15ppg vs 18ppg).
Drummond has insane per 36 numbers (20rpg and 2.3bpg)
Lets just agree to disagree.
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Re: The Official Fire Doc Rivers Thread 

Post#66 » by Murray_17 » Tue Nov 2, 2021 5:05 am

76ciology wrote:
Shake’s best scoring seasons were with doc (+-12ppg)


He's scoring 3 more points than the season before Doc came here on:

- considerable more volume (4 more FGA)
- more minutes
- less eficiency
- His 3 point shot dropped from 43% to 35% on equal volume.

76ciology wrote:Niang averaged more pts per 36 on our team than the Jazz (15ppg vs 18ppg).


Sample size...

He's also actually playing 3 more minutes than in the Jazz. His efficiency numbers, 3P% are almost equal. He's more featured on our offense because we don't have that many elite shooters, as a result he's taking more shots.

76ciology wrote:Drummond has insane per 36 numbers (20rpg and 2.3bpg)


Drummond is one of the best rebounders ever and he's not only posting simular rebound numbers as the rest of his career he's also rebounding against bench centers.

And again....sample size.
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Re: The Official Fire Doc Rivers Thread 

Post#67 » by 76ciology » Tue Nov 2, 2021 5:09 am

Murray_17 wrote:
76ciology wrote:
Shake’s best scoring seasons were with doc (+-12ppg)


He's scoring 3 more points than the season before Doc came here on:

- considerable more volume (4 more FGA)
- more minutes
- less eficiency
- His 3 point shot dropped from 43% to 35% on equal volume.

76ciology wrote:Niang averaged more pts per 36 on our team than the Jazz (15ppg vs 18ppg).


Sample size...

He's also actually playing 3 more minutes than in the Jazz. His efficiency numbers, 3P% are almost equal. He's more featured on our offense because we don't have that many elite shooters

76ciology wrote:Drummond has insane per 36 numbers (20rpg and 2.3bpg)


Drummond is one of the best rebounders ever and he's not only posting simular rebound numbers as the rest of his career he's also rebounding against bench centers.

And again....sample size.


Funny that u were the one who first mentioned per minute production and when i try to compare their per 36, u now try to counter it with sample size.

Shake is also playing the worst basketball of his life under doc and Niang is posting similar numbers than in the Jazz by minute production


If u want sample size. Then maybe we stop looking at just game 7s of Doc and rather look at his entire 20 year career. Then after that, try to compare it to each coach and let me know who are better than him.
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Re: The Official Fire Doc Rivers Thread 

Post#68 » by Murray_17 » Tue Nov 2, 2021 5:21 am

76ciology wrote:If u want sample size.

Then look at Doc Rivers 20 year career compare it to each coach and let me know who are better than him.


You went to a totally different argument than the one we were having.

I also don't understand what is the criteria you mean by "compare each coach" who made their players better? who had the best system? who won more titles?

Because stuff like that is relative and subjective to context and just saying "compare" sounds super generic and vague.


76ciology wrote:
Funny that u were the one who first mentioned per minute production and when i try to compare their per 36, u now try to counter it with sample size.


Per 36 is not by minute production, is literally per 36 minutes production.....

76ciology wrote:
If u want sample size. Then maybe we stop looking at just game 7s of Doc and rather look at his entire 20 year career. Then after that, try to compare it to each coach and let me know who are better than him.


???????

Dude you were the one who used Niang, Drummond and Danny Green as examples of Doc mastery, not me, like wtf :lol:
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Re: The Official Fire Doc Rivers Thread 

Post#69 » by TTP » Tue Nov 2, 2021 5:27 am

Murray_17 wrote:
76ciology wrote:
My point is.. seth doesnt need Embiid nor Ben to be good (play JJ’s role).


JJ's usage and scoring was the best of his career by playing off Embiid, by the same token Seth shots worse from 3 without Embiid out there and it's notoriously worse.

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/seth-curry-with-and-without-embiid-in-76ers

Seth is amazing, but he has an slow as **** release so he needs to play off screens or be open to take 3's. Today he penetrated at will and took open midrange shots because the Blazers defense sucks.

Saying He is good by himself is just delusional, i love Curry but there is a reason he's on a bargain contract.


No doubt that Seth takes fewer shots than he should because of his slow release. Any shot he currently takes is basically a good shot and you'd think we could find ways to generate some more.

However, I don't fully agree with the bolded. The same GMs that undervalued him for years and didn't give him opportunity are likely to be the same GMs that continued to undervalue his market value when he signed that contract two years ago in the 2019 offseason. I think it's pretty clear that he is worth more now and I'm pretty certain a GM is giving him quite a bit more than the 8 mil he's making this year.

It's worth mentioning though that multi-year RAPM loves Seth. #63 in the NBA in 5 year LA-RAPM, and #71 in 3 year, in large sample sizes across several teams, so there's a ton of evidence that he's generating significant value for teams with or without Embiid. I'm not surprised at all that Morey pursued him.

Last year he ranked #47 in the NBA for us. He completely went off and was easily the second best player on the team for us in the playoffs last year too, so we've seen some high ceilings from him as well, squashing the notion that he might not translate well to the playoffs at his size and with his slow shot.

The Mavericks had the most efficient offense in NBA history in 2019-20 and were only 9th in the NBA in 2020-21 - I imagine they were missing what he brought to their offense as well.
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Re: The Official Fire Doc Rivers Thread 

Post#70 » by Murray_17 » Tue Nov 2, 2021 5:33 am

TTP wrote:
It's worth mentioning though that multi-year RAPM loves Seth. #63 in the NBA in 5 year LA-RAPM, and #71 in 3 year, in large sample sizes across several teams, so there's a ton of evidence that he's generating significant value for teams with or without Embiid. Last year he ranked #47 in the NBA for us. He completely went off and was easily the second best player on the team for us in the playoffs last year too, so we've seen some high ceilings from him as well, squashing the notion that he might not translate well to the playoffs at his size and with his slow shot.

The Mavericks had the most efficient offense in NBA history in 2019-20 and were only 9th in the NBA 2020-21 - I imagine they were missing what he brought to their offense as well.



Ohh totally, my comment was more in tone to the notion that he can be good by himself. If that was the case he will not be on an 8 million contract and would be making a lot more.

He's an amazing floor spacer if he has someone he can play off like has been the case not only with Luka and Embiid but also with Lillard himself.
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Re: The Official Fire Doc Rivers Thread 

Post#71 » by 76ciology » Tue Nov 2, 2021 5:56 am

Lets just wait by the end of the season and see if the team continues to overachieve like how they are right now.
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Re: The Official Fire Doc Rivers Thread 

Post#72 » by DCasey91 » Tue Nov 2, 2021 8:23 am

He’s an above average regular season coach but in the playoffs better game mangers seemed to do more in the end. He’s so stubborn and slow and stuck in his ways that’s probably why he’s lost unthinkable leads and underperformed relative to the teams talent.

Any good/upper tier coach would have 6 game beat the Hawks. Young torched game one then like nothing happened he put Green back on him, that was the first of many blunders it’s all there.

Game 7 he didn’t have a clue about game dynamics, we had a run on and looked the best in that stretch, up two with 7 to go calls a stop and brings Seth back on, a ranga then torched us with no countermove and that was the beginning of the end.

Coaches are ultra important they make the moves when push comes to shove.

Even bud has his flaws and it took repeat losses and even in the finals to adjust properly.
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Re: The Official Fire Doc Rivers Thread 

Post#73 » by DCasey91 » Tue Nov 2, 2021 9:26 am

(Games notes)

4th quarter down 5 71-76

Us to start the last: Milton, Thybulle, Harris, Ben, Embiid

For the Hawks: Williams, Bogi, Huerter, Capela, Gallo

- First play, Embiid gets fouled on, inbound, entry pass to Embiid hits face up middie

- Goes to the other end Good D by Ben but horrible inbound pass turnover after not letting it go out of bounds after a layup miss from the Hawks. Threw the basketball into high middle territory. Basketball fundamental 101 no no. Not a % play.

- Couple of plays back and forth all misses from both sides, Ben gets into the ft line dribbling kickout pass to Embiid, hits the stand and deliver three game tied 76-76

Nate calls a TO (Momentum on our side)

In: Young out: Williams

- Huerter drive of Young pass, Milton fouls him. 2 at the line. Makes 1/2 down 1

- Goes up other end simple, Embiid face up middie again hits it. On fire but and I say this it’s predictable, but he hasn’t looked like missing on all three shots straight netters. Up 1

- Good pressure by Ben and Harris to force a turnover of a bad young pass, Shake fouled on the fast break. Inbound, goes back to Embiid, tough dribble dribble into baseline fadeaway jumper miss

- Up the other end in transition Trae does a little iso 1v1 beats Thybulle but Thybulle comes from behind and does his patented block.

- Goes up the other end on a fast break and what happens? Harris didn’t go up for a layup or a jam and did one of his pussyfooted mini floaters. Miss (worst one for us so far imo)

Commentator mentions that Trae is 2/17!

- Huerter goes ISO on a pull up Thybulle great contest, brick city, but loose ball foul from Milton. Ben and Collins kiss with their noses, chest and chest together say a few hello how are you’s lol.

Up 1 with 8:57 to go

- Inbound, Huerter 3 contested brick
- Back on the other end goes to Embiid, offensive foul called for a charge. Offense is getting predictable
- Ring a ring a rosey by trae warps the D abit under the rim to wing pass late contest on Gallo, brick. Last seven misses from them. Thybulle has Trae on clamps.
- Back up the other end transition Harris layup miss. Looking at it closely geez he’s a softie when finishing isnt he?

Embiid 3/5 one turnover, Harris 0/2 (layups), Milton 0/1

Both coaches are letting this one go it’s a stalemate atm.

- Trae calls for a switch, Trae 3 brick, up the other end in transition break play pass to Harris 1v1 on the wing with Huerter no one back to cover the rim, passes it back to Milton? (Why?), Milton drives floats, misses but Harris is there for the layup and one at the line. Huerter looks to have slight cramps in the foreground. Harris hits the free throw

Up 4 with 7:46 to go. +9

This lineup is working!

Unbiased and fair is fair

Embiid 2 mistakes, Harris 2, Milton 2, Simmons one, Thybulle none.

Now I’ll save you the rest from here you can watch it yourself. (Forewarned it’s not pretty).

- Trae does his head back drive gets a foul but no on the shot attempt

Now as the Hawks are setting up for the inbound (remember Nate only made the obvious Williams/Young switch)

... Doc puts Seth back in for Milton with all the momentum and the dynamic squarely in our favor. Is it Nepotism? Is it Doc not knowing? Surely that can’t be true even blind Freddy could tell you whatever we are doing you do not touch it.

Watch the energy change in the next set of mins, watch the energy change on the Harris blown dunk and finally on the Ben non attempt to Matisse.

This is why Doc isn’t a great in game coach he fails to see the obvious from game 1 when Trae torched Green and after a TO Green went back on him like nothing happened all the way to game 7 with by far our best looking unit for the night. Don’t care who wins the game for us but I do care about making correct adjustments/plays.

Nate did the old classic method of never interrupt if the enemy is making a mistake.
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Re: The Official Fire Doc Rivers Thread 

Post#74 » by mjkvol » Tue Nov 2, 2021 10:31 am

76ciology wrote:Doc is known for game 7 blunders.

..but also for these “heart and hustle” magic and Tobias led Clippers squad where he’d have underdogs plays bigger than what they are.

Seth is having his career year. Sure.. he’s just playing JJ’s role. But look at this game against the Blazers where he’s playing like Steph Curry-lite. Doc knows and is known to bring the best out of players and he has made a career out of it.

There’s a lot of things you need from a coach. And bringing out the best in players has to be on top of the hierarchy.


What you're essentially saying is that Doc is a great coach for a team with a bit less talent trying to scrap their way into the playoffs, a team in the second stage of a rebuild, so to speak.

He's an awful coach for a team with championship aspirations because he's such a hideous game day coach in big spots, when you need that quality from your coach the most.

So what exactly are these 76ers? My impression is that it is ring-or-bust as long as Embiid is here.
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Re: The Official Fire Doc Rivers Thread 

Post#75 » by DCasey91 » Tue Nov 2, 2021 11:17 am

It should have Embiid or bust right from his rookie season when they were winning games with one of the worst rosters in the NBA. (check 2016 it was god awful). lol.

13-18 with him (41.9%)
15-51 without him (25.4%)
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Re: The Official Fire Doc Rivers Thread 

Post#76 » by 76ciology » Tue Nov 2, 2021 11:36 am

mjkvol wrote:
76ciology wrote:Doc is known for game 7 blunders.

..but also for these “heart and hustle” magic and Tobias led Clippers squad where he’d have underdogs plays bigger than what they are.

Seth is having his career year. Sure.. he’s just playing JJ’s role. But look at this game against the Blazers where he’s playing like Steph Curry-lite. Doc knows and is known to bring the best out of players and he has made a career out of it.

There’s a lot of things you need from a coach. And bringing out the best in players has to be on top of the hierarchy.


What you're essentially saying is that Doc is a great coach for a team with a bit less talent trying to scrap their way into the playoffs, a team in the second stage of a rebuild, so to speak.

He's an awful coach for a team with championship aspirations because he's such a hideous game day coach in big spots, when you need that quality from your coach the most.

So what exactly are these 76ers? My impression is that it is ring-or-bust as long as Embiid is here.


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Re: The Official Fire Doc Rivers Thread 

Post#77 » by zaz102 » Tue Nov 2, 2021 11:37 am

mjkvol wrote:
76ciology wrote:Doc is known for game 7 blunders.

..but also for these “heart and hustle” magic and Tobias led Clippers squad where he’d have underdogs plays bigger than what they are.

Seth is having his career year. Sure.. he’s just playing JJ’s role. But look at this game against the Blazers where he’s playing like Steph Curry-lite. Doc knows and is known to bring the best out of players and he has made a career out of it.

There’s a lot of things you need from a coach. And bringing out the best in players has to be on top of the hierarchy.


What you're essentially saying is that Doc is a great coach for a team with a bit less talent trying to scrap their way into the playoffs, a team in the second stage of a rebuild, so to speak.

He's an awful coach for a team with championship aspirations because he's such a hideous game day coach in big spots, when you need that quality from your coach the most.

So what exactly are these 76ers? My impression is that it is ring-or-bust as long as Embiid is here.
Uh, they've been ring or bust for awhile. They've essentially had 3 max players on their roster and one of the highest payrolls since 2018.
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Re: The Official Fire Doc Rivers Thread 

Post#78 » by Sixerscan » Tue Nov 2, 2021 1:32 pm

“Great regular season coach, bad playoff coach” pretty much describes Mike Budenholzer. Then he got the right players and matchups and it didn’t matter. The year before Frank Vogel won.

Don’t worry too much about the coach. Would like someone else to handle the mid game adjustments though.
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Re: The Official Fire Doc Rivers Thread 

Post#79 » by zaz102 » Tue Nov 2, 2021 1:52 pm

Sixerscan wrote:“Great regular season coach, bad playoff coach” pretty much describes Mike Budenholzer. Then he got the right players and matchups and it didn’t matter. The year before Frank Vogel won.

Don’t worry too much about the coach. Would like someone else to handle the mid game adjustments though.
Seriously, based on that analysis, the only coach that has been available that fits that mold (even though Doc did win a championship) would have been Lue. And not sure if you can argue Lue did any better than Doc with the Clips last year. And I am far from a Doc fan as I couldn't care less if they replaced him.

This team will go as far as the talent takes them which unfortunately I don't see it as a championship team as constructed unless Maxey makes some kind of unexpected giant leap or Simmons (or even less likely Tobias) is traded for a difference maker.
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Re: The Official Fire Doc Rivers Thread 

Post#80 » by sixers4real » Tue Nov 2, 2021 10:10 pm

I give Doc a ton of credit for the way we play in RS. Both this season and previous one. We were #1 seed last season and improved a lot in RS compared to 2019-20.

We start greatly this year, we are 5-2, players are focused, players give it all on the floor.

There is no mess, no drama. All are being professionals and playing great basketball. Doc deserves a lot of credit for that.

But playoffs is what bother me about Doc.
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