Post Harden Lineup Thread

[mjkvol]

If the Sixers’ bench is almost always getting outplayed as you say and they remain one of the winningest teams in the league nonetheless, that again illustrates the lack of a correlation between bench scoring and win percentage in the NBA.

Anybody who believes bench scoring is essential to winning in the NBA, go ahead and take the 10 teams with the best win percentages in the league right now and compare them to the 10 teams with the worst win percentages in the league, in terms of bench scoring.

Against my better judgment, I'll try one last time. The point is that if the bench just holds serve, plays them even and doesn't give up double digit leads, the game is an easy win. It isn't any more complicated than that. If you can't see that basic fact, and I'm pretty sure you won't, there really is no point in having this discussion.

This.

I mean we saw it this game. Niang (not meaning to pick on him) was 1-5 and -12. He played 19 minutes. Harden played 42 and was +18. Which means Niang poor play basically wiped out what Harden was able to do when he was on the court.

Anyways no point discussing things with someone who doesn't understand premise. I feel we both probably wasted our time on this poster

Yeah, it seems to be a recurring theme.

[Ferry Avenue]

Against my better judgment, I'll try one last time. The point is that if the bench just holds serve, plays them even and doesn't give up double digit leads, the game is an easy win. It isn't any more complicated than that. If you can't see that basic fact, and I'm pretty sure you won't, there really is no point in having this discussion.

This.

I mean we saw it this game. Niang (not meaning to pick on him) was 1-5 and -12. He played 19 minutes. Harden played 42 and was +18. Which means Niang poor play basically wiped out what Harden was able to do when he was on the court.

Anyways no point discussing things with someone who doesn't understand premise. I feel we both probably wasted our time on this poster

Yeah, it seems to be a recurring theme.

Apparently neither of you can understand the premise that something is important in the game to the degree that it correlates with winning, which is the goal of the game. You’re both standing on the mantle that something that isn’t correlated with winning is important.

I can explain it to you, but I can’t understand it for you.

[HardenGoat]

If you have more talent you can spread it to your bench and help you hold serve. That equates to winning more games. Not hard to figure out.

[Ferry Avenue]

If you have more talent you can spread it to your bench and help you hold serve. That equates to winning more games. Not hard to figure out.

Nobody has ever argued that teams with more talent aren’t better. However, there is a salary cap, and so talent is not unlimited.

[76ciology]

Cavs game 03/16/22
Start 5: Thybulle + top 4
End 1st half: Green + top 4
Start 5: Thybulle + top 4
End game: Niang + top 4

[76ciology]

Starting 5: stick with Thybulle
- best 5 man unit now, whether you like it or not (i dont). Thybulle is best starting where you have less risk with his gamble given the game is starting from 0,0

Harden
Maxey
Thybulle
Tobias
Embiid

End games
- we’ve been ending games and playing more minutes at the 4th with Niang, in the place of Thybulle. I think its because defense allows more physicality so Niang could be a better defender down the stretch than prior while Niang provides the spacing we need for our top 4 guys.
- Niang also is more stable than highly volatile plays of Thybulle, where you dont need to take that much risk given how talented your top 4 guys are.

Harden
Maxey
Tobias
Niang
Embiid

Bench:
- Shake as default backcourt pair for either Maxey or Harden, which one of them is staggered.
-Joe-Harden duo is struggling
- the tobi/niang duo is proven to work, given how this duo is used more times in ending games
- the thybulle/green duo is proven to work, given its high NetRtg relative to minutes (+13NetRtg at 193 mins), we were also working on this duo a lot last season

Harden bench unit:
Harden
Shake
Tobias
Niang
DeAndre

Embiid bench unit:
Maxey
Shake
Danny Green
Thybulle
Embiid

[Ferry Avenue]

Starting 5: stick with Thybulle
- best 5 man unit now, whether you like it or not (i dont). Thybulle is best starting where you have less risk with his gamble given the game is starting from 0,0

Harden
Maxey
Thybulle
Tobias
Embiid

End games
- we’ve been ending games and playing more minutes at the 4th with Niang, in the place of Thybulle. I think its because defense allows more physicality so Niang could be a better defender down the stretch than prior while Niang provides the spacing we need for our top 4 guys.
- Niang also is more stable than highly volatile plays of Thybulle, where you dont need to take that much risk given how talented your top 4 guys are.

Harden
Maxey
Tobias
Niang
Embiid

Bench:
- Shake as default backcourt pair for either Maxey or Harden, which one of them is staggered.
-Joe-Harden duo is struggling
- the tobi/niang duo is proven to work, given how this duo is used more times in ending games
- the thybulle/green duo is proven to work, given its high NetRtg relative to minutes (+13NetRtg at 193 mins), we were also working on this duo a lot last season

Harden bench unit:
Harden
Shake
Tobias
Niang
DeAndre

Embiid bench unit:
Maxey
Shake
Danny Green
Thybulle
Embiid

I think you have to get Korkmaz re-involved. On any night a significant bench contribution should be possible by way of Niang, Milton, and/or Korkmaz. Right now, limited to Niang and a diminished role for Milton, I don't think there are enough possibilities afoot.

[76ciology]

Starting 5: stick with Thybulle
- best 5 man unit now, whether you like it or not (i dont). Thybulle is best starting where you have less risk with his gamble given the game is starting from 0,0

Harden
Maxey
Thybulle
Tobias
Embiid

End games
- we’ve been ending games and playing more minutes at the 4th with Niang, in the place of Thybulle. I think its because defense allows more physicality so Niang could be a better defender down the stretch than prior while Niang provides the spacing we need for our top 4 guys.
- Niang also is more stable than highly volatile plays of Thybulle, where you dont need to take that much risk given how talented your top 4 guys are.

Harden
Maxey
Tobias
Niang
Embiid

Bench:
- Shake as default backcourt pair for either Maxey or Harden, which one of them is staggered.
-Joe-Harden duo is struggling
- the tobi/niang duo is proven to work, given how this duo is used more times in ending games
- the thybulle/green duo is proven to work, given its high NetRtg relative to minutes (+13NetRtg at 193 mins), we were also working on this duo a lot last season

Harden bench unit:
Harden
Shake
Tobias
Niang
DeAndre

Embiid bench unit:
Maxey
Shake
Danny Green
Thybulle
Embiid

I think you have to get Korkmaz re-involved. On any night a significant bench contribution should be possible by way of Niang, Milton, and/or Korkmaz. Right now, limited to Niang and a diminished role for Milton, I don't think there are enough possibilities afoot.

I can see that. I just think Shake is a more natural backcourt partner for either Maxey and Harden. While if it’s in a vacuum, I’d prefer Kork over Shake because Kork seems more capable playing a bigger role and providing a higher ceiling.

If only it’s realistic to know which of Kork or Milton will have a hot hand during shoot around then just playing that guy more minutes, i’ll do it.

Such a weird situation to have Milton, Korkmaz and Joe on a shooting slump on the same time. Is it because of inconsistent playing time? Maybe they’ll get their rhythm back once Harden sits out games and we’d be forced to play them more minutes.

[blargh]

Starting 5: stick with Thybulle
- best 5 man unit now, whether you like it or not (i dont). Thybulle is best starting where you have less risk with his gamble given the game is starting from 0,0

Harden
Maxey
Thybulle
Tobias
Embiid

End games
- we’ve been ending games and playing more minutes at the 4th with Niang, in the place of Thybulle. I think its because defense allows more physicality so Niang could be a better defender down the stretch than prior while Niang provides the spacing we need for our top 4 guys.
- Niang also is more stable than highly volatile plays of Thybulle, where you dont need to take that much risk given how talented your top 4 guys are.

Harden
Maxey
Tobias
Niang
Embiid

Bench:
- Shake as default backcourt pair for either Maxey or Harden, which one of them is staggered.
-Joe-Harden duo is struggling
- the tobi/niang duo is proven to work, given how this duo is used more times in ending games
- the thybulle/green duo is proven to work, given its high NetRtg relative to minutes (+13NetRtg at 193 mins), we were also working on this duo a lot last season

Harden bench unit:
Harden
Shake
Tobias
Niang
DeAndre

Embiid bench unit:
Maxey
Shake
Danny Green
Thybulle
Embiid

I think that Harden bench lineup gets destroyed on defense. I’d swap Shake for Green.

[mjkvol]

Such a weird situation to have Milton, Korkmaz and Joe on a shooting slump on the same time. Is it because of inconsistent playing time? Maybe they’ll get their rhythm back once Harden sits out games and we’d be forced to play them more minutes.

I think a lot of it has to do with how inconsistently Rivers uses them, but in the case of Korkmaz he essentially played himself out of a solid rotation spot.

Rivers won't use Joe, and something is clearly wrong with Shake, as he is virtually invisible on the court most of the time, but it's Korkmaz that might be the guy to provide some help as we approach the playoffs if he can get it together. To be able to count on any two of Green, Niang, and Korkmaz to provide shooting on a night to night basis would be huge.

[76ciology]

After 11 games:
Harden & Embiid: +16.2 NetRtg
Tobias & Thybulle: +19NetRtg
Thybulle & Niang: -21 NetRtg
Green & Niang: -3 NetRtg (most runned duo with DAJ&Harden duo)

Top 4 + Thybulle = + 20NetRtg
Top 4 + Niang = + 10 NetRtg
Top 4 + Green = +.5 NetRtg

Start 5:
Maxey
Harden
Thybulle
Tobias
Embiid
- best starting 5 in terms of NetRtg

Harden + Bench:
Harden
Shake
Green
Niang
DAJ
- Same unit that killed the Mavs in the fourth (+34 NetRtg that game)

Embiid + Bench
Maxey
Shake
Thybulle
Tobias
Embiid
- Tobi & Tobias proving me wrong and they’re quite potent

End games with either top 4 with Niang or Thybulle or Green, in that order.

[76ciology]

After the last 3 games and since we added Harden..

Our starting unit with Thybulle, starting unit with Niang or starting unit with Green are all OK to great. It’s no doubt we should end one of these three units depending on the match-ups.

The problem has been the Harden and Bench&Embiid and bench units.

Maybe it’s time to explore a Harden without Maxey and Tobi + shooters and DAJ unit like the Mavs game. Then Embiid play with Maxey and Tobi?

Bench 1: Harden+shooters+lob center
Bench 2: Embiid, Maxey, Tobi trio

Another scheme is.. pair Harden and Embiid with the bench unit then have a bench unit lead by Maxey, Shake, Kork, Tobi and DeAndre like the unit that lead us win the heat game.

Bench 1: Harden + Embiid
Bench 2: maxey, shake, kork, tobi and deandre

[Foshan]

After the last 3 games and since we added Harden..

Our starting unit with Thybulle, starting unit with Niang or starting unit with Green are all OK to great. It’s no doubt we should end one of these three units depending on the match-ups.

The problem has been the Harden and Bench&Embiid and bench units.

Maybe it’s time to explore a Harden without Maxey and Tobi + shooters and DAJ unit like the Mavs game.

Then Embiid play with Maxey and Tobi?

Another scheme is.. pair Harden and Embiid with the bench unit then have a bench unit lead by Maxey, Shake, Kork, Tobi and DeAndre like the unit that lead us win the heat game.

I would lean toward going this way… but I may just be high after one game lol

[76ciology]

After the last 3 games and since we added Harden..

Our starting unit with Thybulle, starting unit with Niang or starting unit with Green are all OK to great. It’s no doubt we should end one of these three units depending on the match-ups.

The problem has been the Harden and Bench&Embiid and bench units.

Maybe it’s time to explore a Harden without Maxey and Tobi + shooters and DAJ unit like the Mavs game.

Then Embiid play with Maxey and Tobi?

Another scheme is.. pair Harden and Embiid with the bench unit then have a bench unit lead by Maxey, Shake, Kork, Tobi and DeAndre like the unit that lead us win the heat game.

I would lean toward going this way… but I may just be high after one game lol

Yeah then we just choose 3 of the ff. depending on who’s hot and on their match-up to end games:
Maxey
Shake
Green
Korkmaz
Thybulle
Tobi
Niang

Just seem right now, we’re trying to find the right combinations with our rotations. That’s also why we’re less open in playing new guys like Reed and Bassey because we haven’t figured the foundation yet

[mjkvol]

That’s also why we’re less open in playing new guys like Reed and Bassey because we haven’t figured the foundation yet

I think you're giving Glenn way too much credit.

There's no reason whatsoever not to be experimenting with Reed and Bassey in different combinations to see if they might provide value in the post season in different situations. Just like there's no reason to be running Harden upwards to 40 minutes a game. This is what he has always done and will always do.

[mjkvol]

Bench 1: Harden+shooters+lob center
Bench 2: Embiid, Maxey, Tobi trio

I like #1 and hate #2. Problem once again is Tobias - regardless where you put him he's a drag. If #2 was Embiid, Maxey, Kork, Thybulle, and Niang you have the perfect compliment of go-to scorers, defense, and shooting. Adding Tobias only gluts it with a pseudo-scorer that needs the ball.

It's become crystal clear to everyone but Glenn that Tobias is a drain on what this group can be. He doesn't offer anything on either end of the floor that makes him a must-play guy. Maxey being allowed to be that dynamic third guy will not only serve the interests of this group, but make shaping the team for the next few years that much easier.

[76ciology]

Looks like the non-Harden&Embiid unit is working. So far.
Maxey-Shake-Kork-Tobi-DAJ

For the Lakers game:
+18 NetRtg for the game in 7 mins (3rd most minutes)
+42 NetRtg for the 4th quarter (2nd most minutes)