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I'm surprised nobody started a thread about Jimmy. Is there any possible way we bring Jimmy back without giving up Embiid and Maxey? Who is to blame the most for letting him go?

People will say Elton Brand. But the 76ers were GMing by committee. Ownership takes the blame on that one.

Dnt hate wrote:I'm surprised nobody started a thread about Jimmy. Is there any possible way we bring Jimmy back without giving up Embiid and Maxey? Who is to blame the most for letting him go?

To answer your first question, it's highly doubtful considering that Miami would likely only trade Butler to rebuild which would likely include Maxey and/or other young pieces/draft picks.

As far as the second question goes, it's mainly Brett Brown for telling Brand to only bring back Butler if he kept him under control.

Embiid P wrote:

Dnt hate wrote:I'm surprised nobody started a thread about Jimmy. Is there any possible way we bring Jimmy back without giving up Embiid and Maxey? Who is to blame the most for letting him go?

To answer your first question, it's highly doubtful considering that Miami would likely only trade Butler to rebuild which would likely include Maxey and/or other young pieces/draft picks.

As far as the second question goes, it's mainly Brett Brown for telling Brand to only bring back Butler if he kept him under control.

There's plenty of reports of Jimmy and Brett bumping heads, but you've got that particular one flipped. According to Jimmy, the team asked Brett if he could keep him under control, and that was the last straw for him.

Jimmy has made the finals and may make another since we let him go 3 years ago... just **** my life man. Biggest mistake by far. And it was so obvious.

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Dnt hate wrote:I'm surprised nobody started a thread about Jimmy. Is there any possible way we bring Jimmy back without giving up Embiid and Maxey? Who is to blame the most for letting him go?

#1 is Brett Brown. #2 is Ben Simmons. #3 is Elton Brand, who was the face of that “management by committee” nonsense.

Dnt hate wrote:Who is to blame the most for letting him go?

Brett pushed hard to get rid of him after Josh Harris extended his Brett’s contract. Suspicions abound about Ben Simmons tender sensitivities, though I’ve never read anything stronger than speculation. Jimmy made it a point to back Simmons in public.

Getting rid him was the right idea at the time considering he couldn't play with Ben the mistake was not getting rid of Ben

He was also not scoring 45 points in an elimination game in the playoffs. He had a few games where he was good, but he's playing out of his mind right now.

The problem was committing to Ben for as long as we did, especially with the light simmer going on in the background between him and Embiid.

spikeslovechild wrote:Getting rid him was the right idea at the time considering he couldn't play with Ben the mistake was not getting rid of Ben

Not trying to play Captain Hindsight but it was 2018 for me where the red flags appeared regarding Ben against Boston in the semi-finals. The 2019 Playoffs confirmed my concerns.

Choosing Ben over Jimmy Butler, at least in my opinion, after the '19 Playoffs was absolutely not the right idea at the time, except for the fact the front office and many fans were still hanging on to the delusion that Ben Simmons was an legitimate cornerstone of the franchise and a future superstar.

In hindsight it's easy but I won't lie and say I didn't view Simmons as a cornerstone at that point in time. Someone smarter than me should have built around Embiid and Butler, getting a ransom for Ben.

From what I've read and heard Jimmy say, he didn't have an issue with Ben and didn't need to be the primary ballhandler - in fact, he took issue with Brown declaring that he was the PG in the middle of the playoffs, not wanting to step on Ben's toes. I read somewhere that Jimmy and Ben had actually discussed running it back.

The problem was Brown, and the fact that he had Brand's ear and support. Regarding Tobias, that damn trade should never have been made. He was a superfluous piece on that team, and it was always going to be a stretch to keep both. It's just staggering how badly Brand f***ked up that situation.

I always thought it was Butler and Simmons that would not be able to co-exist. Thing is, after Miami beat us in these playoffs, Butler was going off about how the team chose Tobias Harris over him. So while Brett had his part in this, and the question of fit with Simmons was definitely lingering, I think this falls on Elton Brand. Superstar players don't just grow on trees. We acquired one in Butler and were sitting pretty for the time being. We struck gold with a superstar player and then let him walk right out the door. A franchise move that will haunt this team for many years to come.
With all that said, it really doesn't matter at this point. We have to work with what is right in front of us and looking back at the Butler mishap wont get this team anywhere. The Al Horford signing should have been grounds for termination for Elton Brand right off the bat. A lot of dumb moves were made by him and Morey has had the tedious task of cleaning it all up. All good though. The team is still a contender and will be for the foreseeable future.

Butler made that clutch layup to tie the game before Leonard shot. A lot of people forget that event. Just a clutch play. While he did struggle in parts of that series like everyone else. It doesn’t matter when he can make those plays.

I don’t know what is going on with harden hamstring or anything. But harden if he was truly injured is still better at age 32 than butler. But if harden is truly washed and hamstring never 100%. Than yes of course butler would be way better for sixers.

kuclas wrote:Butler made that clutch layup to tie the game before Leonard shot. A lot of people forget that event. Just a clutch play. While he did struggle in parts of that series like everyone else. It doesn’t matter when he can make those plays.

I don’t know what is going on with harden hamstring or anything. But harden if he was truly injured is still better at age 32 than butler. But if harden is truly washed and hamstring never 100%. Than yes of course butler would be way better for sixers.

Is this really true though? Harden is a better player in a vacuum, but I don't think that even prime Harden could have delivered a performace like Butler did just now in the crucial game of the conference finals and in the end this may be the only thing that matters...

TBF that game 6 we just saw from Jimmy Butler might be a top 10 playoff classic ever.

I don't love BBRef's gamescore counter, but it does an okay job of encapsulating total impact in terms of overall statsheet completeness. Anything over 40 and you've pretty much delivered an all timer.

Butler has 5 times in his playoff career hit or exceeded the 40.0 gamescore threshold (all with the Heat). Lebron James has done it 6x. Michael Jordan has 7x.

And to put in context how rare it is to hit this mark (counting playoffs only):

Shaq has done it 3 individual times in 200+ playoff outings . Dirk has done it 3x as well. And so has Hakeem.

Kobe has 2x. Iverson has 2x.

Paul has 1x. Duncan has 1x. Durant has 1x. Jokic has 1x. Giannis has 1x.

Kawhi has never. Steph has never. KG has never. Wade has never. Russ has never. Magic has never. Bird has never. Paul George has never. Irving has never. Luka has never. Embiid has never.

Harden has twice, including a 45/9/7/2/2 against the Championship Warriors in the Western Conference Finals.



I think it's fair to acknowledge that Playoff Jimmy Butler at his very best is literally a generational player full stop. But also that Harden at his very playoff best has absolutely shown to be a superstar championship elite level talent (((this springs open a pandora's box worth of questions about current Harden and his basketball mileage left that I will choose to ignore))).

The main idea of pairing him and Embiid was so that hopefully while both being game changers, neither of them would have to hit the absolute demonic levels of a Lebron/Butler/Jordan level carry jobs and still be able to hoist the Larry O - like Steph or Garnett.

mjkvol wrote:From what I've read and heard Jimmy say, he didn't have an issue with Ben and didn't need to be the primary ballhandler - in fact, he took issue with Brown declaring that he was the PG in the middle of the playoffs, not wanting to step on Ben's toes. I read somewhere that Jimmy and Ben had actually discussed running it back.

The problem was Brown, and the fact that he had Brand's ear and support. Regarding Tobias, that damn trade should never have been made. He was a superfluous piece on that team, and it was always going to be a stretch to keep both. It's just staggering how badly Brand f***ked up that situation.

They won't admit it, but I believe they traded for Tobias precisely because they were leaning towards not bringing Jimmy back. Josh Harris, Brett Brown and the rest of the clown show soured on him that quickly.

76thBearCub wrote:In hindsight it's easy but I won't lie and say I didn't view Simmons as a cornerstone at that point in time. Someone smarter than me should have built around Embiid and Butler, getting a ransom for Ben.

If we kept Butler and traded Simmons that year it would have been THE GENIUS move. What were the possibilities at the time I wonder. Even someone like Roco I feel like we would have 1 ring by now.

Dnt hate wrote:

76thBearCub wrote:In hindsight it's easy but I won't lie and say I didn't view Simmons as a cornerstone at that point in time. Someone smarter than me should have built around Embiid and Butler, getting a ransom for Ben.

If we kept Butler and traded Simmons that year it would have been THE GENIUS move. What were the possibilities at the time I wonder. Even someone like Roco I feel like we would have 1 ring by now.

Yes, and if you remember it was reported that Brand actually thought about trading Simmons during that season, but the ownership quickly shut him down as they said Embiid and Simmons will be the franchise cornerstones. I think the most blame is on the ownership for not getting someone like Morey before and for meddling in the basketball decisions they obviously know little about. Unfortunately, nobody can fire the owners...

The mistake was in failing to gauge Ben Simmons's lack of passion for the game and what that has done to his developmental trajectory, making his ceiling as a player far, far lower than the team projected.

If you project Simmons's developmental trajectory as ultimately resulting in "LeBron 2.0," you're fully comfortable allowing Butler to walk and building the team around Simmons. If on the other hand you project Simmons's developmental trajectory to result in the ceiling at which he's currently playing (or not playing...) -- which is where it should've been projected as a function of his lack of passion for the game, and which someone with any NBA playing experience could've easily gauged -- then you trade Simmons for a king's ransom and build around Butler and Embiid.

Imagine what this team would be right now with 1) Embiid, 2) Butler, and 3) what could've been acquired in trade for Simmons at that time.