The benefits of a good coach and young players

[Iverson Armband]

Draymond punched a teammate in the face which has cause a calculable impact to Poole’s career. Jimmy spent his entire career alienating teammates and even recently threatened to fight his coach.

I’m sorry, but I’m uninterested in everyone’s opinion of the “right” way to lead on this board.

Fine. Then just take him not coming up big and going out sad every year in the playoffs as proof of him not being a leader, that should do it.

[Negrodamus]

Draymond punched a teammate in the face which has cause a calculable impact to Poole’s career. Jimmy spent his entire career alienating teammates and even recently threatened to fight his coach.

I’m sorry, but I’m uninterested in everyone’s opinion of the “right” way to lead on this board.

Fine. Then just take him not coming up big and going out sad every year in the playoffs as proof of him not being a leader, that should do it.

The argument isn’t whether Embiid is a good leader or not. My argument is it’s impossible for us to even make the distinction when we’re so unbelievably removed from the situation. We see small snippets of an entire story. I’m sure Jimmy is a good leader. Same with Draymond. If you ask current Sixers if they think Joel is a good leader, I’d bet, more often than not, players will say he is.

Meanwhile, we have a bunch of people within this fan base that have zero clue stating definitively that he’s not a leader based on their own contradictory definition of “leadership” and a handful of soundbytes. It’s just a throwaway conversation.

[mjkvol]

You don't need me or anyone else for that, you do a fine job on your own .

I would suggest you place me on ignore and/or report the issue to a moderator and let him or her handle it. The forum is for the discussion of the Philadelphia 76ers, not your trolling.

Well, I think it's pretty clear from the reaction to our posts by other forum members, using deductive reasoning, who the troll is, but then I'm not an expert on human nature like you.

The last word is yours, then I really must leave you and return to the sane world.

[Iverson Armband]

Draymond punched a teammate in the face which has cause a calculable impact to Poole’s career. Jimmy spent his entire career alienating teammates and even recently threatened to fight his coach.

I’m sorry, but I’m uninterested in everyone’s opinion of the “right” way to lead on this board.

Fine. Then just take him not coming up big and going out sad every year in the playoffs as proof of him not being a leader, that should do it.

The argument isn’t whether Embiid is a good leader or not. My argument is it’s impossible for us to even make the distinction when we’re so unbelievably removed from the situation. We see small snippets of an entire story. I’m sure Jimmy is a good leader. Same with Draymond. If you ask current Sixers if they think Joel is a good leader, I’d bet, more often than not, players will say he is.

Meanwhile, we have a bunch of people within this fan base that have zero clue stating definitively that he’s not a leader based on their own contradictory definition of “leadership” and a handful of soundbytes. It’s just a throwaway conversation.

It’s a message board, that’s what people do. They speculate. None of us really knows anything lol.

What we do know is he consistency comes up small. So take from that what you want.

[Mik317]

Is it possible Biid comes up small because of some mental make up? Sure. No one is denying that possibility. People are however saying its probably not the only reason and it is possible to overcome that via outside methods.

I remember when Giannis was considered a fraud ass loser prior to his chip. LeBron has been called a choke artist multiple times for coming up small. Tatum the guy who beat us literally just had 3 straight games of scoring 0 in the final quarter. Sometimes you just get strapped lol.

again is it possible Biid just doesn't have it upstairs to be the closer alpha man? Fo sho. I do think when Horford was clamping his **** up, he began to get into his head a bit. BUT I also think a better ran and built roster could scheme ways around that. Jokic is nto great in space so he is surrounded at forward spot with 2 tall long athletes to cover up that with often his 2 guard (Brown or KCP) also being plus defenders. On offense, they have movement and cutter AND shooting...which makes it hard and honestly stupid as **** to double him...so he often sees single coverage. Biid, and perhaps to his own fault, has a stagnant offense that relies on him being automatic from mid range AND a elite passer (which he is not) AND also fight to get open AND also create for himself...meanwhile also putting out fires on the other end. So even if he is a sawft ass lahooser...that seems like a set up destined to fail no? There is more to it than just wanting it more than the other guy. Lebron damn sure wanted to win another chip just as much as Jokic...his team wasn't set up to do so. And there is context and reasons why beyond just "he is a bad leader yo".

AGAIN there is very much a mental aspect to it; no doubt. Its just that I think its easier to be a super tough guy when the other aspects aren't **** lol. This mythology of guys just carrying despite the odds is not real IMO. Each championship team is set up near perfectly for that run even w/ flukey things like injuries or shooting variance applied. I think talking about those things is more interesting and fun than "this guy I don't know is a pussy ass bitch". Leave that **** for the local radio./

[Ferry Avenue]

Is it possible Biid comes up small because of some mental make up? Sure. No one is denying that possibility. People are however saying its probably not the only reason and it is possible to overcome that via outside methods.

I remember when Giannis was considered a fraud ass loser prior to his chip. LeBron has been called a choke artist multiple times for coming up small. Tatum the guy who beat us literally just had 3 straight games of scoring 0 in the final quarter. Sometimes you just get strapped lol.

again is it possible Biid just doesn't have it upstairs to be the closer alpha man? Fo sho. I do think when Horford was clamping his **** up, he began to get into his head a bit. BUT I also think a better ran and built roster could scheme ways around that. Jokic is nto great in space so he is surrounded at forward spot with 2 tall long athletes to cover up that with often his 2 guard (Brown or KCP) also being plus defenders. On offense, they have movement and cutter AND shooting...which makes it hard and honestly stupid as **** to double him...so he often sees single coverage. Biid, and perhaps to his own fault, has a stagnant offense that relies on him being automatic from mid range AND a elite passer (which he is not) AND also fight to get open AND also create for himself...meanwhile also putting out fires on the other end. So even if he is a sawft ass lahooser...that seems like a set up destined to fail no? There is more to it than just wanting it more than the other guy. Lebron damn sure wanted to win another chip just as much as Jokic...his team wasn't set up to do so. And there is context and reasons why beyond just "he is a bad leader yo".

AGAIN there is very much a mental aspect to it; no doubt. Its just that I think its easier to be a super tough guy when the other aspects aren't **** lol. This mythology of guys just carrying despite the odds is not real IMO. Each championship team is set up near perfectly for that run even w/ flukey things like injuries or shooting variance applied. I think talking about those things is more interesting and fun than "this guy I don't know is a pussy ass bitch". Leave that **** for the local radio./

Again make the critical distinction between drive/effort and production. Embiid (and Harden) all too often comes up short with regard to drive and effort. If he appeared highly driven and giving maximum effort he would function as an effective leader that inspired his team, regardless of his production. PJ Tucker for example is a routinely driven, highly effortful player that inspires his teammates and functions as a leader regardless of his production.

The problem with the Sixers again however is that the tip of their spear -- Embiid and Harden -- don't function that way often enough. If everybody on the team knows Harden and Embiid have to play well to give the team any chance of beating the best teams in the league and Harden and Embiid appear less than maximally driven and effortful, obviously that'll be deflating and uninspiring for the team. They're essentially a ball and chain.

Again take a look at how Spoelstra recently described the opposite dynamic for the Heat in the playoffs:

While credit must go to those four for rising to the occasion, head coach Erik Spoelstra believes that the presences of Jimmy Butler and Bam Adebayo have had a part to play in bringing out the best out of those four. By virtue of being at their best, Spoelstra believes that the Heat’s two stars are causing a trickle-down effect in terms of confidence.

“Jimmy and Bam are both fueling that,” Spoelstra said in his postgame presser, per ESPN. “They are just infusing those guys with confidence. But then they also know that they have to impact everybody else on the roster. You want to breathe life into other guys and ultimately enjoy someone else’s success, but that takes great emotional stability. You know, there’s a lot of pressure and voices and noise coming at you from a lot of different ways.”

“Those guys, those guys get it. And you’re seeing some of the role players really grow and be able to expand their games. That only happens if your star players really want that,” Spoelstra added.

https://clutchpoints.com/heat-news-how-jimmy-butler-bam-adebayo-are-infusing-confidence-in-rest-of-roster

[Mik317]

I don't agree with that. Or rather don't think its the end all be all.

Yes the team does tend to crash when Biid crashes...but that feels like its more the fact that he is the entire offense and the entire defense. This is literally the same **** Bron got clipped for all those years. I also think having most of your offense be based off of taking tough contested jumpers is also a fool errand because when your shot is not going in...it snowballs. You saw it with Harden...if the 3 isn't going in, his other option is attempt to drive to the rim..which the defense knows and swallowed up. I don't think any of it was a lack of effort or heart.

i am not saying the mental part is not apart of it. I just think you place too much on it. I feel like the other aspects all play a role in things and those things are fixable (maybe not by us because of a lack of resources and now time but still fixable). Again Jokic got swept and punched Cam Payne two years ago...and nearly got swept last year. Was it him not being mentally tough enough to overcome the odds? Or was it the fact that he lacked his second guy and IIRC third guy?

[Ferry Avenue]

I don't agree with that. Or rather don't think its the end all be all.

Yes the team does tend to crash when Biid crashes...but that feels like its more the fact that he is the entire offense and the entire defense. This is literally the same **** Bron got clipped for all those years. I also think having most of your offense be based off of taking tough contested jumpers is also a fool errand because when your shot is not going in...it snowballs. You saw it with Harden...if the 3 isn't going in, his other option is attempt to drive to the rim..which the defense knows and swallowed up. I don't think any of it was a lack of effort or heart.

i am not saying the mental part is not apart of it. I just think you place too much on it. I feel like the other aspects all play a role in things and those things are fixable (maybe not by us because of a lack of resources and now time but still fixable). Again Jokic got swept and punched Cam Payne two years ago...and nearly got swept last year. Was it him not being mentally tough enough to overcome the odds? Or was it the fact that he lacked his second guy and IIRC third guy?

Consider the term "necessary but not sufficient." The mental/emotional factors I'm talking about here are necessary but not sufficient for NBA title contention. If you have them they won't get you there in and of themselves -- like you noted you must have other things as well. But if you don't have them, you aren't getting there no matter what else you have. A team that does have them will very likely knock you off.

[mjkvol]

I don't agree with that. Or rather don't think its the end all be all.

Yes the team does tend to crash when Biid crashes...but that feels like its more the fact that he is the entire offense and the entire defense. This is literally the same **** Bron got clipped for all those years. I also think having most of your offense be based off of taking tough contested jumpers is also a fool errand because when your shot is not going in...it snowballs. You saw it with Harden...if the 3 isn't going in, his other option is attempt to drive to the rim..which the defense knows and swallowed up. I don't think any of it was a lack of effort or heart.

i am not saying the mental part is not apart of it. I just think you place too much on it. I feel like the other aspects all play a role in things and those things are fixable (maybe not by us because of a lack of resources and now time but still fixable). Again Jokic got swept and punched Cam Payne two years ago...and nearly got swept last year. Was it him not being mentally tough enough to overcome the odds? Or was it the fact that he lacked his second guy and IIRC third guy?

And the other aspect that the "gotta be a dog to win" mentality leaves out is the type of organization, from the owner down to the GM to the coach and developmental system. The teams that have been most successful from year to year (GS, MIA, now DEN and maybe even SAC) have solid systems and cultures in place, and are obviously good at identifying the type of players who fit their systems.

I'm sure Butler was a 'dog' in Chicago and Minnesota, but what did it get him besides a bad rep and pretty much run out of both places? Dylan Brooks is certainly a 'dog', and now he's looking for a job. Being a vocal leader on a properly set up and well coached team will always look better to talk radio type fans, because it is a hell of a lot easier, taking nothing away from Draymond or Jimmy, who has been awesome in these playoffs.

One more thing - leaders aren't all in your face and bluster like Butler and Tucker. Guys like Tim Duncan and Julius Erving were incredible leaders that led by example, not threatening to punch the coach and woofing and dressing down teammates during games. And again, if the Sixers hold on and win game 6, none of this is even being discussed right now.

[HotelVitale]

100% agree well said. The only caveat I’d add is we ourselves made the luck as worse as possible. The biggest head scratcher to me wasn’t the Fultz/Simmons debacle it was the Bridges scenario. We needed a wing and a PG and it was the worst possible time to double down on a project. The timeline made no sense then as it does now. Yeah Ben made Shai look redundant in the sense that the FO was sticking to the wrong gun which was proven to be wrong but that’s happened before but Bridges? Didn’t understand it then still don’t now. Ready made and ready to go with a pro game, homegrown the whole works.

Tin foil but whatever I seriously think there’s some sour things going on away from the public eye. There’s still sour grapes in the org imho.

At the very least we’d be 2/5 on the starting positions long term instead of 1/5.

Well my counter to that would be that I was actually working at Villanova at the time and watched a lot of Bridges, and I loved him as a college player but didn’t think he was a guaranteed solid starter in the NBA—let alone what he was on PHX (probably the best 3D guy ever), let alone what he’s become this year. I think it’s just a hindsight take to think that everyone could’ve penciled him in as a major cog in the machine at draft time; to my eyes he was a really good but flawed 3D prospect, and those guys fail or disappoint a lot.

I also think we got a terrific return—the issue is just that we drafted a rough prospect with one pick and then traded the other in the Tobias deal. Zhaire Smith and 30% of the right to max Tobias Harris is an awful return for a prospect like Bridges, even if two picks in the teens for a #10 isn’t bad.

It’s funny because I followed that draft very closely as a byproduct of Luka. Luka was a clear number one and it wasn’t Euroleague play that didn’t surprise me it was actually Eurocup when Slovenia won with an in form Dragic. Zingis was the player of the tourney but Luka was clearly the most talented one there even back then lol. Thought he’d be a bigger Hayward but cleared that easy

Fwiw I had Carter Jr over Bagley as he always seemed to have a more transferable game when they played together it’s the same thing with Bridges and it’s my number one thing I look when envisioning prospects on their role at the next level. The polish, the feel, the transferability. Bridge’s shooting that season was legit and consistent the whole time.

Did I think he could average 15+? No but scoring is inflated to the max in the NBA. But I really thought he was plug in and play and was an easy fit on any team.

The thing that soured me the most was how it was handled on draft day. Even Mikal was shocked.

In reality pick 16 is pretty spot on for the range on Zhaire but it wasn’t what we needed at the time.

I thought bridges shooting was probably good but he was also pretty much just a spot up shooter and not a movement guy at all. And no one could tell he would be s legit 40%+ guy and not just a solid 35% one, that’s rarely predictable. He was also terrible at anything involving dribbling a basketball. Extremely stiff and one of the most straight line driving prospects I’ve ever seen—it was almost like he was on train tracks given how little he could go side to side off the bounce. I also thought his defense was good not great for a wing prospect, didn’t necessarily see him as a lockdown swallower but more of a Roco type. I was clearly wrong but I don’t think it was possible to tab him as an all NBA defender at draft time for real for real.

Also I disagree on Zhaire, didn’t understand him as a prospect at all. I wrote a bunch of posts here that kept saying ‘he’s athletic but not in a very useful basketball way, just looks out of control and random. kinda like he’s on flubber or like Luigi from Super Mario 2.’ I guess I didn’t hate him at #16 but he was the most overrated prospect of that class. (I desperately wanted Lonnie Walker though so not like I would’ve nailed anything.)

[DCasey91]

Well my counter to that would be that I was actually working at Villanova at the time and watched a lot of Bridges, and I loved him as a college player but didn’t think he was a guaranteed solid starter in the NBA—let alone what he was on PHX (probably the best 3D guy ever), let alone what he’s become this year. I think it’s just a hindsight take to think that everyone could’ve penciled him in as a major cog in the machine at draft time; to my eyes he was a really good but flawed 3D prospect, and those guys fail or disappoint a lot.

I also think we got a terrific return—the issue is just that we drafted a rough prospect with one pick and then traded the other in the Tobias deal. Zhaire Smith and 30% of the right to max Tobias Harris is an awful return for a prospect like Bridges, even if two picks in the teens for a #10 isn’t bad.

It’s funny because I followed that draft very closely as a byproduct of Luka. Luka was a clear number one and it wasn’t Euroleague play that didn’t surprise me it was actually Eurocup when Slovenia won with an in form Dragic. Zingis was the player of the tourney but Luka was clearly the most talented one there even back then lol. Thought he’d be a bigger Hayward but cleared that easy

Fwiw I had Carter Jr over Bagley as he always seemed to have a more transferable game when they played together it’s the same thing with Bridges and it’s my number one thing I look when envisioning prospects on their role at the next level. The polish, the feel, the transferability. Bridge’s shooting that season was legit and consistent the whole time.

Did I think he could average 15+? No but scoring is inflated to the max in the NBA. But I really thought he was plug in and play and was an easy fit on any team.

The thing that soured me the most was how it was handled on draft day. Even Mikal was shocked.

In reality pick 16 is pretty spot on for the range on Zhaire but it wasn’t what we needed at the time.

I thought bridges shooting was probably good but he was also pretty much just a spot up shooter and not a movement guy at all. And no one could tell he would be s legit 40%+ guy and not just a solid 35% one, that’s rarely predictable. He was also terrible at anything involving dribbling a basketball. Extremely stiff and one of the most straight line driving prospects I’ve ever seen—it was almost like he was on train tracks given how little he could go side to side off the bounce. I also thought his defense was good not great for a wing prospect, didn’t necessarily see him as a lockdown swallower but more of a Roco type. I was clearly wrong but I don’t think it was possible to tab him as an all NBA defender at draft time for real for real.

Also I disagree on Zhaire, didn’t understand him as a prospect at all. I wrote a bunch of posts here that kept saying ‘he’s athletic but not in a very useful basketball way, just looks out of control and random. kinda like he’s on flubber or like Luigi from Super Mario 2.’ I guess I didn’t hate him at #16 but he was the most overrated prospect of that class. (I desperately wanted Lonnie Walker though so not like I would’ve nailed anything.)

I wouldn’t say overrated at all as 16 is where you get to the territory of bust/ non contributing picks (even before that). Yes some FO’s do better than others on later picks but the draft is far away from an exact science and it’ll always be that way.

I too saw Bridges as a Roco type but his production, maturity, was too hard to ignore, great length, good size.

But scouts may have underrated his scoring potential as he’s basically up the same stats in his final college year as this season in the NBA 17ppg on 40+% 3 on high volume 85+FT% the markers were there and he had a run in the tourney which always sticks out to people’s minds when closing in on the draft. He was the best performing wing that whole draft in College so that also weighs heavily as wings are like gold for NBA teams they value them super highly.

Zhaire was a great kid, explosive athlete, hard worker, the game wasn’t there but the recipe certainly was.

Maxey is actually similar in a way as he didn’t have the polish/skill set to warrant a top ten pick but for all the things above he passed with flying colours.

Who knows what NBA scouts examine pre draft and what key indicators they look out for, but having a good head on your shoulders goes a long way imo.

[ExplosionsInDaSky]

Leadership is determined primarily by high effort and drive that's exhibited selflessly toward the goal of winning as a team. PJ Tucker is a leader. Jimmy Butler is a leader. Embiid and Harden are short on effort and high on lackadaisical lethargy all too often to be considered effective leaders in my opinion. They appear to lack effort and drive all too often. That wouldn't be so bad if they were peripheral players, but when they're the tip of your spear it's an issue. They then become a ball and chain on the team as opposed to the uplifting inspirational players they would be if they were effective leaders.

I don't disagree with this, but I do not agree on Embiid. We've never gotten a healthy Embiid for an entire postseason. I've said this for the last few years now. The minute we get a fully healthy Embiid for an entire postseason is the year we go to the Finals.

He's...Gotten...Hurt each and every time and I think each time, the injuries have caused him some mental roadblocks. Last year, the minute the thumb got injured, it was over. This year, the minute he hurt his knee...It was over. Oh and we all knew in our heart of hearts that it was over in 21 when he hurt his knee against The Wizards in round one. That same mental disposition carried right over into the Atlanta series. The hope was that Ben would be able to take over and carry us, but he went midget on us too.

Embiid has had some tough breaks in the playoffs and it's extremely hard to play hurt and still be dominant against opposing players that are dialed in and turned up for the postseason. I don't blame lack of leadership on Embiid, I think it's mental, and it's mental because the injurie have screwed with him each and every time.

Now, we took Boston to seven games this year in the playoffs. Everyone here and of the basketball world KNEW that Boston was a bad matchup for us. The postseason is all about matchups and they were our worst possible one in my opinion. They were going to be our biggest hurdle in the postseason and it was unfortunately going to happen in the 2nd round. Now...Did Jo play bad against them? Yeah, he was up and down. He wasn't regular season Embiid, but I'm going with the knee injury as the reason why. Despite that, we still had them on the ropes in game 6 and were on our way to closing that out until Doc Effed things up for us.

Basically, I think you're being a little harsh towards Embiid. You want to call what Harden did at times lackadaisical, that's fine by me. I can't argue with that. We all knew who James Harden was before he got here. He's cool, he's mellow, and he truly DNGAF about anyone on the planet but himself. You can't win with that, and I think his energy rubbed off on Embiid at times.

This team needs a fresh start without Harden to evaluate and then we'll go from there.

[76ciology]

The reason why we never had a healthy embiid is because he’s chasing for MVP.

Giannis stopped chasing for MVP, champion.
Jokic stopped chasing for MVP, finals or likely champion.

He should stop targeting his 65 games played to qualify him for MVP.

Maybe this narrative of not chasing MVP to be a winner does not apply to others. But this is very applicable to a player with less durability than Yao Ming.

[Mik317]

he's gotten hurt in the playoffs every year often on defensive plays or elbows to the face.

i am not sure what playing less games will help with that lol

[Kobblehead]

Load management doesn't work. See the Clippers. Injury-prone players are just going to get dinged because it's their nature.

[mjkvol]

Load management doesn't work. See the Clippers. Injury-prone players are just going to get dinged because it's their nature.

Maybe so, but routinely playing veterans 38-40+ minutes in regular season games is also a recipe for disaster. I believe there's a balance, like playing certain guys around 60 games and averaging 32-34 minutes a night. The season is too damn long, but the players blew their shot at getting it shortened with this new CBA.

[Kobblehead]

That's kind of round-about where the Sixers were this year.

Embiid: 66 games played, 34.6 mpg
Harden: 58 games played, 36.8 mpg

For comparison sake:

Butler: 64 games played, 33.4 mpg
James: 55 games played, 35.5 mpg
Davis: 54 games played, 34 mpg
Jokic: 69 games played, 33.7 mpg
Murray: 65 games played, 32.8 mpg
Tatum: 74 games played, 36.9 mpg
Brown: 67 games played, 35.9 mpg

It seems like the Sixers vet stars were operating on the same workload of other vet stars on other contenders.

[Jailblazers7]

Load management doesn't work. See the Clippers. Injury-prone players are just going to get dinged because it's their nature.

I agree with the injury-prone bit but I think load management does work for some players. Duncan, Lebron, Giannis, etc. Manage minutes for durable & reliable players like that to keep them relatively fresh come playoff time is an effective strategy.

But letting Kawhi, Embiid, Zion, AD, etc sit will do nothing to avoid injury.

[VDT]

I don't agree with that. Or rather don't think its the end all be all.

Yes the team does tend to crash when Biid crashes...but that feels like its more the fact that he is the entire offense and the entire defense. This is literally the same **** Bron got clipped for all those years. I also think having most of your offense be based off of taking tough contested jumpers is also a fool errand because when your shot is not going in...it snowballs. You saw it with Harden...if the 3 isn't going in, his other option is attempt to drive to the rim..which the defense knows and swallowed up. I don't think any of it was a lack of effort or heart.

i am not saying the mental part is not apart of it. I just think you place too much on it. I feel like the other aspects all play a role in things and those things are fixable (maybe not by us because of a lack of resources and now time but still fixable). Again Jokic got swept and punched Cam Payne two years ago...and nearly got swept last year. Was it him not being mentally tough enough to overcome the odds? Or was it the fact that he lacked his second guy and IIRC third guy?

The mental aspect is tied to self confidence and how good you actually are. Embiid is saying things but i actually doubt he is really confident in his ability to lead the team. Has anyone forgot yow dreadful he was against Gasol and how bad his body language was? Same with Horford to a lesser degree. Its hard to imagine guys that actually led their team to a title acting like him. The truth is that, despite what he might say, he lacks confidence. Not because he is not a dog or whatever but because he actually knows his limitations. Yes, he hasnt been lucky with the injuries but he and the team havent proved they have any killer instinct at all. Losing to that Hawks team is inexcusable, losing 4-0 against the Celtics without Simmons was pretty bad also. To this day he hasnt really had a dominant playoff run and at 29 i doubt he will have one. Its not even that he is losing to one team, the Sixers and Embiid are losing to everyone in the second round. Celtics, Hawks, Raptors, Heat with Embiid being bad against everyone but the Hawks. It is what it is at this point.