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We’ll see how Miami does the rest of this season, but they’ve already convinced me not only of the advantage of an X’s and O’x guy who can develop a good basic scheme as well as make in-game adjustments, but the willingness of an organization to hunt down young talent and then actually play them. I can’t remember when this franchise had a sharp coach, but recall how much fun it used to be running with all the young scrubs back in the early process days. We’ve had some G-leaguers the past couple of years I surely would have liked to see get some minutes with the parent club during the regular season, at least.

The Heat would hardly be what they are without Jimmy Butler's presence as "the rising tide that lifts all boats." All that young talent and all the Xs and Os in the world wouldn't surmount the best teams in the league in the playoffs without Butler and his influence.

its about getting a chance to fail.

Doc is too trigger happy to pull a guy who makes mistakes...damn near pulled Maxey before Klutch probably got involved.

Doc wanted guys to play a specific way and any deviation from that meant they sat. If Trez and Dedmon wasn't as done as they were, BBall would not have seen the court and probably would have been traded or cut.

That being said...Miami guys aren't young lol. They are career journeymen who simply are ready to step in because otherwise the dream is over lol.

The appraisal by Spoelstra himself:

Vincent said the key for him is to "be as present as possible" and doing anything he can to help the group. It's a team that appears more unified, and as Spoelstra spoke pridefully about what the younger players provide, he did so while praising his two veteran leaders.

"Jimmy and Bam are both fueling that," Spoelstra said. "They are just infusing those guys with confidence. ... But then they also know that they have to impact everybody else on the roster, and you know, we talk about it all the time. You want to breathe life into other guys and ultimately enjoy someone else's success, but that takes great emotional stability. You know, there's a lot of pressure and voices and noise coming at you from a lot of different ways.

"But those guys, those guys get it. And you're seeing some of the role players really grow and be able to expand their games. That only happens if your star players really want that."

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/37705408/deep-determined-heat-take-3-0-lead

Again with the Sixers you have a ball and chain effect of Embiid and Harden on the rest of the roster. You have the opposite effect of the Heat's leaders.

If Jimmy’s main goal is to win MVP over the championship that everyone on his team knows it, while Bam goes to vegas and strip clubs in between games, the rest of the guys should be inspired by this and would carry the team to win the championship.

#sarcastic

This is why we need to at least interview Chris Quinn. I assume we can't until this series is over but maybe if they get a long break before the Finals we could do it then.

I'd like to see if he can bring the Heat organization blueprint for all aspects of the organization.

I'd also want to poach Adam Simon the Heat's Assistant GM. Give him the GM title here to see if he would come, although I doubt it since none of their front office guys ever leave.

It's top to bottom, but the players also have to be on the same page. You just can't be at the top with Embiid and Harden leading the team, no matter the coach or the GM. They have to be below a true alpha. But yeah coaching has always been VERY important, just because 1 or 2 times an average coach won it all doesn't disprove it. Recent superteams like Heat and Warriors also had very good team culture and management, it was never just the talent.
Let's be honest, in the process thing we focused way too much on just getting talent, we forgot about the other important parts, like management, character guys, etc.

Arsenal wrote:I'd also want to poach Adam Simon the Heat's Assistant GM. Give him the GM title here to see if he would come, although I doubt it since none of their front office guys ever leave.

Either him or Bob Myers from GS (who is reportedly available) would be ideal but neither are happening obviously.

Simon in particular will probably just wait for Riley to retire and then take his position.

The fact that they've found these scrap heap guys is impressive, but it's not like they're crushing it with the guys they've paid. Herro is out. Lowry has helped, but is on a terrible contract. Robinson has helped now that guys are out, but also a terrible contract. Oladipo hurt. They're a next man up team right now that is on a magical run. They've been the best playoff shooting team in the league after being 27th in 3p% during the regular season.

I don't really know what lesson you take from their team building strategy other than you can find quality role players if you look hard enough and use them properly. But I also don't think our role players were the issue.

Spo's coaching and Jimmy being basketball's version of Stone Cold Steve Austin feels like the differentiating factor, and also feel like the toughest parts for us to try to replicate.

youngcrev wrote:The fact that they've found these scrap heap guys is impressive, but it's not like they're crushing it with the guys they've paid. Herro is out. Lowry has helped, but is on a terrible contract. Robinson has helped now that guys are out, but also a terrible contract. Oladipo hurt. They're a next man up team right now that is on a magical run. They've been the best playoff shooting team in the league after being 27th in 3p% during the regular season.

I don't really know what lesson you take from their team building strategy other than you can find quality role players if you look hard enough and use them properly. But I also don't think our role players were the issue.

Spo's coaching and Jimmy being basketball's version of Stone Cold Steve Austin feels like the differentiating factor, and also feel like the toughest parts for us to try to replicate.

You're totally disregarding their overall organization where Pat Riley sets the tone. Guys there have to work hard and get in great shape in order to play. I have zero doubt that org squeezes more out of their talent than the rest of the league.

Arsenal wrote:

youngcrev wrote:The fact that they've found these scrap heap guys is impressive, but it's not like they're crushing it with the guys they've paid. Herro is out. Lowry has helped, but is on a terrible contract. Robinson has helped now that guys are out, but also a terrible contract. Oladipo hurt. They're a next man up team right now that is on a magical run. They've been the best playoff shooting team in the league after being 27th in 3p% during the regular season.

I don't really know what lesson you take from their team building strategy other than you can find quality role players if you look hard enough and use them properly. But I also don't think our role players were the issue.

Spo's coaching and Jimmy being basketball's version of Stone Cold Steve Austin feels like the differentiating factor, and also feel like the toughest parts for us to try to replicate.

You're totally disregarding their overall organization where Pat Riley sets the tone. Guys there have to work hard and get in great shape in order to play. I have zero doubt that org squeezes more out of their talent than the rest of the league.

I'd put at least part of that under the coaching umbrella. Give Spo the same exact role players we've got and I'm not so sure the results would look much different. We've got some dogs, our stars are just allergic.

youngcrev wrote:The fact that they've found these scrap heap guys is impressive, but it's not like they're crushing it with the guys they've paid. Herro is out. Lowry has helped, but is on a terrible contract. Robinson has helped now that guys are out, but also a terrible contract. Oladipo hurt. They're a next man up team right now that is on a magical run. They've been the best playoff shooting team in the league after being 27th in 3p% during the regular season.

I don't really know what lesson you take from their team building strategy other than you can find quality role players if you look hard enough and use them properly. But I also don't think our role players were the issue.

Spo's coaching and Jimmy being basketball's version of Stone Cold Steve Austin feels like the differentiating factor, and also feel like the toughest parts for us to try to replicate.

Good points, but to me it's an overall culture thing that runs from the top of the organization down, and throughout the roster from the moment they enter the building. The 'next man up' is prepared for the situation because he isn't banished at the end of the bench or in a 'doghouse', the emphasis is about the team and winning, and if you don't buy in you probably aren't there very long.

Listen, there's no doubt that Jimmy going bonkers and Spo being a superior tactician and bench coach are the biggest factors in this run, but enabling bench players like Vincent, Robinson, and Cody Zeller (!!) to take the lead when they're rolling is a huge factor.

Culture is everything especially in sports. You’d be surprised how much politics/nepotism and cynical nature runs through each organisation.

Pat Riley and Spo are ATG’s in their own right they don’t f around and run the tightest of ships. We are basically the opposite of the Heat from top to bottom lol

It will never happen and it’s purely a fantasy thing but if the Sixers where run by the majority of fans ala Bayern Munich we’ve already had a championship by now. No seriously some of the posters here have crazy takes myself included... still better than what this FO has come up for over half a decade. And over half a decade in sports is literally an eternity in the scheme of things.

Arsenal wrote:

youngcrev wrote:The fact that they've found these scrap heap guys is impressive, but it's not like they're crushing it with the guys they've paid. Herro is out. Lowry has helped, but is on a terrible contract. Robinson has helped now that guys are out, but also a terrible contract. Oladipo hurt. They're a next man up team right now that is on a magical run. They've been the best playoff shooting team in the league after being 27th in 3p% during the regular season.

I don't really know what lesson you take from their team building strategy other than you can find quality role players if you look hard enough and use them properly. But I also don't think our role players were the issue.

Spo's coaching and Jimmy being basketball's version of Stone Cold Steve Austin feels like the differentiating factor, and also feel like the toughest parts for us to try to replicate.

You're totally disregarding their overall organization where Pat Riley sets the tone. Guys there have to work hard and get in great shape in order to play. I have zero doubt that org squeezes more out of their talent than the rest of the league.

I think so too, and that the Spurs-like team-above-all thing makes it a lot easier to catch lightning in a bottle. And giving guys simple roles that they can play over and over again is very important for maxing role player value, and that requires a system that everyone understands but is still flexible.

That said, I also agree that none of that is meaningful if Butler doesn’t become peak MJ in the 1st round, and if the team doesn’t drill tons of tough shots they could’ve easily missed. I watched a lot of those games and I don’t think it was too much more complicated than Butler playing ridiculous and setting up open shots for pretty good shooters.

I think this happens every year. We get all caught up in what the successful teams did and immediately try and copy what they've done. The fact is, Miami was a play in team and nobody had them getting past Milwaukee much less getting to the Finals. There's no way to replicate what they've done. It's pretty much unprecedented. The last 8th seed to make the Finals was the Knicks in 99 and the Spurs made quick work of them.

I think you can look at what Miami has done to have this kind of success and go from there. One thing right away that I see is that they didn't blow their roster up after losing to Boston last year. They have team chemistry and continuity. They have stability and longevity at the coaching position. Spoelstra when he first got there was thought to be basically a babysitter for Lebron and company. To me he looked like a fall guy and a face to represent the team. The same can be said about Popovich when he was first hired in San Antonio. Nobody saw Pop or Spoelstra having the success or longevity they've had as coaches. Those two are hands down, far and away the best head coaches in the game. I think Steve Kerr would come in third behind them.

Basically what I'm saying is that you don't really see teams win rings with a lot of turn over and changes on their roster. It takes the right kind of trust amongst the players and it takes accountability and professionalism. Miami has a great leader in Jimmy Butler, Kyle Lowry is another, the guys are all pros, and they realize the dream they are chasing.

These are things you can't copycat or replicate. You're not going to find your version of Jimmy Butler, and then pair that guy with your version of Max Strus. Every year this happens, all the losing fans of their teams want to copycat what the top teams that are still playing are doing. This has gone on ever since I joined this forum. Back then, people on this forum were trying to turn us into the Sacramento Kings. We were going to have Iverson be Mike Bibby, Kyle Korver was going to be Peja, Iguodala was going to be Doug Christie. Again, I think the mistake people make with trying to copy styles is that you can't copy a state of mind or a spiritual feeling that "we can do this." That Kings team never made the Finals, but they were damn fun to watch and everyone was trying to swagger jack their style. Same with the Suns team that Nash led when he won B2B MVPs. After that, everyone was trying to copy the Lakers, then it was the Warriors. There was also a stretch where it was all about building a team to stop Lebron. "Let's be the Pacers when they had Paul George, but we'll be better because Embiid is better than Roy Hibbert."

I look at basketball teams like I do artists, musicians, rappers...Some of them are just straight trash, some of them are very good but fall short on being in the conversation with the best, some of them are average and their fans think they are better but they're not. Some of them are incredibly unique and original and magnetic, which causes others to emulate them instead of finding their own identity.

I think that's the point I'm trying to make here. Miami has their own unique identity and it's working for them. WE...Need to find our own unique identity and I think it starts with Joel Embiid. There's no player in the game comparable to him. We just need to find that state of mind and go with it. Again, look at the 2001 team with Iverson that went to the Finals. You can try and replicate how that team was built with players that do similar things, but there's only one Allen Iverson and you can't copy that. That's why what Miami is doing is so beautiful and awesome right now. It'll never be done again. There will never be another team like the present version of this Miami Heat. They're operating on a deeper level right now and they're creating magic in doing so.

If we're going to start with a state of mind, then it has to be with a new coach that can get the players to buy in and believe. The combination of Doc, Harden, and Embiid was bad trio when combined. You had all the wrong attitudes mixed together and all the barking, clapping, and flexing from PJ Tucker wasn't going to change that.

My solutions;
1. Harden leaves - He's not built for championships. He's a CGI action movie. All style and no substance with this guy.

2. Joel Embiid matures, and shows a bit more professionalism next season. He made strides this year, that's for sure. Next season the Sad Joel needs to be put away for good. No reason to be out there moping around. You either play till the buzzer or you sit down and let Paul Reed show you what it means to fight for a job.

3. We make the correct hire with the head coach. I think a retread like D'Antoni is a bad idea, same with Budenholzer. Sad part is this team will probably hire one of those two guys. I personally want Kenny Atkinson but that's just me. I love what Atkinson did with that Brooklyn team prior to them getting Kyrie, KD, and Harden. In fact, they did him wrong when they let him go. He had Brooklyn believing, he had them playing with a purpose and they had hella swag while he was coaching them. That's another thing too. There has to be something likeable and special about a team for them to go anywhere. Everyone hates us right now and it's because we live off foul baiting and flopping. Nobody wants to root for a team that lives by making the game a free throw shooting contest.

4. We circle back to Embiid. He is the only person keeping us from a rebuild currently. Embiid is going to have to buy in to "change", to a mentality change. Let's have fun playing basketball again. Remember how fun this team was to watch the first year he played? Do you all remember how he had us all believing in how amazingly bright the future was going to be with him? There was a moment where I thought Embiid and 4 scrubs could beat anyone in the game, and you know why? Because we weren't afraid of failing. It wasn't a business back then, no flopping, no crying for calls, no moping or pouting, there were no expectations. There were also no expectations for the Miami Heat this year.

DCasey91 wrote:Culture is everything especially in sports. You’d be surprised how much politics/nepotism and cynical nature runs through each organisation.

Pat Riley and Spo are ATG’s in their own right they don’t f around and run the tightest of ships. We are basically the opposite of the Heat from top to bottom lol

It will never happen and it’s purely a fantasy thing but if the Sixers where run by the majority of fans ala Bayern Munich we’ve already had a championship by now. No seriously some of the posters here have crazy takes myself included... still better than what this FO has come up for over half a decade. And over half a decade in sports is literally an eternity in the scheme of things.

There was more or less just one full calendar year of catastrophic moves the FO made, BC and B-B share the blame. Fultz trade, Butler trade then walking, Tobias trade then max, Horford signing, Zhaire Smith trade. Blew pretty much all of our considerable assets and left us capped out without a second star, and ready to be f’d when Simmons fell apart. We walked out of that series of moves minus 5 1st rd picks (and a cheap Covington who was worth at least one more) and with Tobias on a giant contract. And Seth curry and Danny Green for a minute too I guess (yay!).

I’m not a huge Morey guy but I think he’s competent and that he and most GMs probably wouldn’t have done any of those moves, let alone all of them. So I don’t think it makes sense to sideswipe the ‘FO’ as a whole. Process was well set up, Morey’s made the roster make more sense. But that year was just a brutal stretch and we’re walking through the wreckage now. Gotta be both lucky and good to field a champ team and we were both pretty unlucky and pretty crap after the Process set the table.

HotelVitale wrote:

DCasey91 wrote:Culture is everything especially in sports. You’d be surprised how much politics/nepotism and cynical nature runs through each organisation.

Pat Riley and Spo are ATG’s in their own right they don’t f around and run the tightest of ships. We are basically the opposite of the Heat from top to bottom lol

It will never happen and it’s purely a fantasy thing but if the Sixers where run by the majority of fans ala Bayern Munich we’ve already had a championship by now. No seriously some of the posters here have crazy takes myself included... still better than what this FO has come up for over half a decade. And over half a decade in sports is literally an eternity in the scheme of things.

There was more or less just one year of catastrophic moves the FO made, part BC and part B-B. Fultz trade, Butler trade then walking, Tobias trade then max, Horford signing, Zhaire Smith trade. Blew pretty much all of our considerable, considerable assets and left us capped out without a second star, and ready to be f’d when Simmons fell apart. We walked out of that series of moves minus 5 1st rd picks (and a cheap Covington who was worth at least one more) and with Tobias on a giant contract. And Seth curry and Danny Green for a minute too I guess (yay!).

I’m not a huge Morey guy but I think he’s competent and that he and most GMs probably wouldn’t have done any of those moves, let alone all of them. It was just a brutal stretch and we’re walking through the wreckage now. Gotta be both lucky and good to field a champ team and we were both pretty unlucky and pretty crap after the Process set the table.

Culture, luck good or bad, making the wrong moves. All good stuff and all good reasons why this team is so down and depressed right now.
You touched briefly on Morey...So far I like what he's done. I think he's a fine GM, I think he makes decent moves. The PJ Tucker signing was the only one I really didn't openly like. My fear with Morey is that he gets too attached to Harden and brings him back in a desperate move. I also cringe at the thought of him trading Maxey for Zach Lavine or Brad Beal. I hope that doesn't happen. I realize we're capped and pretty much stuck at the moment, but his decisions and how he handles this offseason are going to determine a lot for this team and it's future.

ExplosionsInDaSky wrote:

HotelVitale wrote:

DCasey91 wrote:Culture is everything especially in sports. You’d be surprised how much politics/nepotism and cynical nature runs through each organisation.

Pat Riley and Spo are ATG’s in their own right they don’t f around and run the tightest of ships. We are basically the opposite of the Heat from top to bottom lol

It will never happen and it’s purely a fantasy thing but if the Sixers where run by the majority of fans ala Bayern Munich we’ve already had a championship by now. No seriously some of the posters here have crazy takes myself included... still better than what this FO has come up for over half a decade. And over half a decade in sports is literally an eternity in the scheme of things.

There was more or less just one year of catastrophic moves the FO made, part BC and part B-B. Fultz trade, Butler trade then walking, Tobias trade then max, Horford signing, Zhaire Smith trade. Blew pretty much all of our considerable, considerable assets and left us capped out without a second star, and ready to be f’d when Simmons fell apart. We walked out of that series of moves minus 5 1st rd picks (and a cheap Covington who was worth at least one more) and with Tobias on a giant contract. And Seth curry and Danny Green for a minute too I guess (yay!).

I’m not a huge Morey guy but I think he’s competent and that he and most GMs probably wouldn’t have done any of those moves, let alone all of them. It was just a brutal stretch and we’re walking through the wreckage now. Gotta be both lucky and good to field a champ team and we were both pretty unlucky and pretty crap after the Process set the table.

Culture, luck good or bad, making the wrong moves. All good stuff and all good reasons why this team is so down and depressed right now.
You touched briefly on Morey...So far I like what he's done. I think he's a fine GM, I think he makes decent moves. The PJ Tucker signing was the only one I really didn't openly like. My fear with Morey is that he gets too attached to Harden and brings him back in a desperate move. I also cringe at the thought of him trading Maxey for Zach Lavine or Brad Beal. I hope that doesn't happen. I realize we're capped and pretty much stuck at the moment, but his decisions and how he handles this offseason are going to determine a lot for this team and it's future.

Yeah I’m agnostic about this off-season for the first time I can remember. I absolutely don’t trust Harden next year let alone in 3 years, but I don’t see a path without him given our cap and asset situation. We were a lucky shot or two away from winning game 6 against Boston too, but we also f’ing sucked so much in that series that it’s hard to make that about us.

Don’t feel good about any move, and I don’t have any ‘okay what we need to do is…’ energy. All options seem like they won’t end well, but I also can’t even hate any of them as a result.

HotelVitale wrote:

ExplosionsInDaSky wrote:

HotelVitale wrote:
There was more or less just one year of catastrophic moves the FO made, part BC and part B-B. Fultz trade, Butler trade then walking, Tobias trade then max, Horford signing, Zhaire Smith trade. Blew pretty much all of our considerable, considerable assets and left us capped out without a second star, and ready to be f’d when Simmons fell apart. We walked out of that series of moves minus 5 1st rd picks (and a cheap Covington who was worth at least one more) and with Tobias on a giant contract. And Seth curry and Danny Green for a minute too I guess (yay!).

I’m not a huge Morey guy but I think he’s competent and that he and most GMs probably wouldn’t have done any of those moves, let alone all of them. It was just a brutal stretch and we’re walking through the wreckage now. Gotta be both lucky and good to field a champ team and we were both pretty unlucky and pretty crap after the Process set the table.

Culture, luck good or bad, making the wrong moves. All good stuff and all good reasons why this team is so down and depressed right now.
You touched briefly on Morey...So far I like what he's done. I think he's a fine GM, I think he makes decent moves. The PJ Tucker signing was the only one I really didn't openly like. My fear with Morey is that he gets too attached to Harden and brings him back in a desperate move. I also cringe at the thought of him trading Maxey for Zach Lavine or Brad Beal. I hope that doesn't happen. I realize we're capped and pretty much stuck at the moment, but his decisions and how he handles this offseason are going to determine a lot for this team and it's future.

Yeah I’m agnostic about this off-season for the first time I can remember. I absolutely don’t trust Harden next year let alone in 3 years, but I don’t see a path without him given our cap and asset situation. We were a lucky shot or two away from winning game 6 against Boston too, but we also f’ing sucked so much in that series that it’s hard to make that about us.

Don’t feel good about any move, and I don’t have any ‘okay what we need to do is…’ energy. All options seem like they won’t end well, but I also can’t even hate any of them as a result.

When I watched game six I watched a complete mental breakdown at the 5 minute mark of the 4th quarter. We went from a storybook feeling with Niang hitting threes and the team taking a five point lead to just a complete Sixer collapse.

We had a similar game like that against Atlanta in game five of the playoffs in 21. Just a complete mental breakdown and a total collapse of any momentum. Where does that fall? That's my question.

That's got to fall on Rivers right? Rivers had that track record of his teams doing EXACTLY THAT! Many times in the playoffs over the last twenty years. I remember Boston blowing an 11 point lead in the fourth quarter of game seven against the Lakers. Doc has had this happen under his watch with some of the most mentally tough minded players the game has ever seen on his rosters. KG, Pierce, Rondo, Chris Paul. I don't know, I've just been asking myself who is actually behind the game six collapse? It happened! We knew it was a possibility and it happened at worst moment. But is Joel really that much of a mental midget? We've seen tougher fail.
IDK! I'm just still deflated over that game. Watching Tatum suddenly hit those threes was like being a car accident...Slow motion and yet THIS IS really happening! I'm still recovering from it. Losing game six to Boston like that felt eerily similar to the way I felt after the Atlanta series two years ago. Like your spirit had been stomped on and conquered by something you should have beaten.

Two years ago it was John Collins flushing it on Embiid repeatedly, Trae Young hitting 30 foot three pointers, Kevin Fkin Huerter. Last year it was Jimmy Butler reminding the entire city of Philly what it was missing out on. This year Marcus Smart flopped his way into us hating him while Jaysom Tatum ripped our hearts out. Jaylen Brown just steadily gave us the business while Al Horford rubbed it in our faces.

Again, all that energy has been BAD energy and it's taken it's toll. I truly hope next season is a transitional one. Fun being the operative word.