Mo's Rotation
Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 6:07 am
by Fire BK
First and foremost
Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 6:16 am
by dbodner
Thad's playing time Friday night was partly the result of foul trouble he picked up early when he got into the game.
Overall though, I agree with you that I don't like the current rotation. This juggling the lineup based on starters has to end at some point. Unfortunately, I think Mo made his choice. I don't see him taking Green out of the starting lineup this late in the season after he's started all year, and it seems Mo's more comfortable with Evans at PF going forward. I disagree with both decisions, but I don't expect it to change at this point in the season.
Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 10:56 am
by Dedicated_76ers_fan
Wait a minute did I hear you say Mo's done a fantastic job this year? Is it because we're 1 game above .500? Is it because of the development of the young kids?
For starters, there were some sixers fans(I myself one of them) thought that the addition of Evans and Smith gave us depth on the frontlines and that our rookies could contribute. Said depth told me that with the play of Andre Miller, we would make the playoffs.
Maurice cheeks did not play said players, and if it weren't for Ed Stefanski, Mo would not be playing said players to this date. Even now, as you note he's starting inferior players like Willie Green and Reggie Evans over Thaddeus Young, Lou Williams.(Lou, who I believe can guard a slower 2 guard then he can a fast one). Honestly, the lineup of Miller-Lou-Iggy-Thad-Dalembert is outstanding and the lineup of Miller-Iggy-Thad-Evans-Dalembert is fine too as long as Evans doesn't get the ball in the post.
Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 12:48 pm
by corwin
Dedicated_76ers_fan wrote:
Maurice cheeks did not play said players, and if it weren't for Ed Stefanski, Mo would not be playing said players to this date. Even now, as you note he's starting inferior players like Willie Green and Reggie Evans over Thaddeus Young, Lou Williams.(Lou, who I believe can guard a slower 2 guard then he can a fast one). Honestly, the lineup of Miller-Lou-Iggy-Thad-Dalembert is outstanding and the lineup of Miller-Iggy-Thad-Evans-Dalembert is fine too as long as Evans doesn't get the ball in the post.
He's motivated the team & gotten everyone to play hard most of the year& that's a huge positive. However, this criticism is right on. Mo is way too rigid with his substitution patterns & would prefer to play the vets. IMO Stefanski made the difference. I'm not sure that they're on the same page even now. But since they're winning & since Mo got his extension, expect him to play the guys he wants to play.
Re: Mo's Rotation
Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 2:45 pm
by dond
Fire BK wrote:First and foremost
Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 4:19 pm
by ChuckS
If I were Thad Young, I would believe that I did not like "me". So let me preface this by saying "I love you man and think you are good and going to be really good".
It has been my unfailing belief, however, that we are beating teams with personnel perceived as better than ours (almost every squad) because of our oppressive defense. Think Ivy and the no names.
Thad did not play because he could not stop anyone in the few minutes he did play, and got two quick fouls. Do not be deluded by garbage time plus/minus numbers. Anyone who thinks that he is a good match up for Amare or Shaq should be called the names we call Mo. Someone I respect said he did a good job against Stoudemire in a previous win. I'm sorry but I must have missed it. I, personally, believe that Young, even armed with an axe and battery operated chainsaw, could not do a good job on Amare. But that's not the kid's fault. Mo WOULD HAVE BEEN stupid if he stuck with such a matchup.
On the other hand Evans is a great part of our defensive prowess. If you were a power forward who, on our team, would you least want to play against? He is one of the most annoying defenders, and unrelenting rebounders, that I've seen since Dennis Rodman. Certainly Thad is more skilled offensively. But look at the numbers, and the points disparity is so negligible that it cannot overcome the on man defensive difference. Evans is a shooting "spastic", but I can live with his 45%...until we get a more well rounded four.
Thad is not without redeeming basketball value, however. He does a good job in our frenetic trapping schemes and so I do not think it unwise to bring him in with our second unit of Carney, Ollie, and Williams, etc, which invariably changes the pace of the game. I would prefer Evans on this unit for some toughness and rebounding, but only when Mo feels Young can do a better defensive job on league starters. I know I am alone, but I just do not believe he is ready yet, except against "finesse" or perimeter oriented fours. I have no problem mixing and matching if it doesn't screw up the players, but otherwise I start Evans.
Willie Green has shot as poorly as I've seen for five games. but he still has a better average than Lou because the latter shot as poorly as I've seen for at least ten games before. Again, I stick with Wille for defensive purposes. If the shooting woes continue, Carney is about the only one on the team who could replace him with no defensive consequence.
Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 4:53 pm
by dbodner
Do not be deluded by garbage time plus/minus numbers
Actually, Young's +/- through 3 quarters (we made our run in the second and third quarters) was a +2.
But yes, on this specific game, Young at the 4 was a bad matchup. Overall though? I think your assessment of his defense is very off.
Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 5:25 pm
by tk76
If I was a PF, I would not want to try cover Thad- knowing I would have to try get back and keep up with him- knowing if I leave him I will get burned on a backdoor cut or OBoard.
Covering Evan's would be a luxury. You can basically ignore him defensively and focus on help defense.
Obviously Evans is the better defender, but that ignores the rest of the game.
Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 5:27 pm
by underpressure
Thad would have been a great match-up against Diaw since he burned us in the defense when we were starting to cut the lead significantly. I think it was part of Mo's misjudgement that he did not really utilize Thad.
Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 5:32 pm
by tk76
Here is a link to player pairs +/- per 48 min this year:
http://82games.com/0708/0708PHIP.HTM
Notable:
Evans/Green +0
Thad/Green +1
Williams/Thad +4
Iguodala/Young +9 ......BINGO
Of course, Williams and Young are the teams to +/- guys, so they tend to be positive with most combos.
Notable is that Iguodala is most positive with Smith and Thad.
Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 12:28 am
by Fire BK
tk76 wrote: Iguodala/Young +9 ......BINGO.
This team is clearly at its best with those two playing significant minutes together.
dond, since I can't plead directly to Mo, i consider you the next closest voice for the coach. so whatsup? Why can't Mo see this?
Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 2:43 am
by cavsfan_osiris
I'm not really sure why Willie Green starts. If I could ask Mo one question about this team it would be about WG starting.
Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 7:16 am
by Cookin Baskets
cavsfan_osiris wrote:I'm not really sure why Willie Green starts. If I could ask Mo one question about this team it would be about WG starting.
Actually,Green should start so Iggy can play his natural small forward position. Despite Green's shooting slump, looking at his overall year he has been a solid starter for us.
Reggie Evans has been big on the board for us, but he shouldn't be starting he seems to bring energy off,hustle off the bench and seems like he would be a better role player if he came off the bench. They should start Rookie sensation Thaddeous Young at Power Forward, he has been shooting well and he defintley deserves to start over Evans and is already a way better offensive threat and he can also rebound well for a rookie.
Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 3:07 pm
by ankle420breaker
That starting lineup in the 3rd quarter allowed Cleveland to steal the lead and the momentum going down the stretch... I believe that ultimately ended up being a major determinant in the game's outcome.
Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 3:15 pm
by tk76
ankle420breaker wrote:That starting lineup in the 3rd quarter allowed Cleveland to steal the lead and the momentum going down the stretch... I believe that ultimately ended up being a major determinant in the game's outcome.
+1
I'm fine with Mo going with this line-up, but with their bad track record in 3rd quarters, he should have gone to the reserves after the first TO. No reason to go with the starters for 8 minutes.
Posted: Tue Apr 1, 2008 11:45 am
by dond
Fire BK wrote:This team is clearly at its best with those two playing significant minutes together.
dond, since I can't plead directly to Mo, i consider you the next closest voice for the coach. so whatsup? Why can't Mo see this?
Well, let's assume it is true (Iggy+Young) and Mo does see it !
He may be doing exactly what he is doing for other reasons. Maybe he is being careful not to over-expose Young to difficult matchups in order to keep his confidence up. Remember, this Young is a rookie and the Sixers are not battling for a championship. As many have said ... this year is basically for nothing. The Sixers have already made the playoffs and does it really matter who they play in the playoffs ? Maybe there is more to this you know ? I come back to my basic premise ... and that is ... I/you/we may not know all the factors that determine who plays at what position and when ... I like to give a professional basketball player/coach with many years experience the benefit of the doubt when it comes to those decisions.
Posted: Tue Apr 1, 2008 1:16 pm
by STChaser
Does seem to me that Cheeks is giving Green preferential treatment. Article on Philly.com this morning about Green being allowed to shoot through his scoring slump. I don't recall Carney getting the same benefit earlier this season. And did I miss a game where Jason Smith really screwed up? Why the sudden DNP Coach's decision for last game? It seemed to me like Smith was doing quite well.
STChaser
Posted: Tue Apr 1, 2008 2:18 pm
by dbodner
Well, Willie is only playing 21 mpg during March. He shouldn't be starting, but at least Mo has given him a (relatively) short hook when he's not connecting.
Posted: Tue Apr 1, 2008 2:29 pm
by dond
STChaser wrote:Does seem to me that Cheeks is giving Green preferential treatment. Article on Philly.com this morning about Green being allowed to shoot through his scoring slump. I don't recall Carney getting the same benefit earlier this season. And did I miss a game where Jason Smith really screwed up? Why the sudden DNP Coach's decision for last game? It seemed to me like Smith was doing quite well.
STChaser
Well, as much heat as Willie Green gets (sometimes deservedly so) on this forum, Carney is not in the same Category as Willie Green. Willie is a known talent, regardless of the opinions here. It may not be of starting quality but it is at a level that one can expect will recover in time. Carney has not shown that yet.
As far as Jason Smith, I also am a little puzzled by his lack of playing time ... and I always feel like he does pretty well.
However, in keeping with my standard philosophy, I assume there is a reason for that ... just not one that I am privy to. When that reason has worked itself out, we will see him more often.
Posted: Tue Apr 1, 2008 3:45 pm
by ankle420breaker
dond wrote:-= original quote snipped =-
Well, as much heat as Willie Green gets (sometimes deservedly so) on this forum, Carney is not in the same Category as Willie Green. Willie is a known talent, regardless of the opinions here. It may not be of starting quality but it is at a level that one can expect will recover in time. Carney has not shown that yet.
A known talent?
One can also expect that once recovered, it won't be too long before he finds himself slumping again. Despite his current shooting woes, he's having his career season... and his play this season still doesn't warrant security in playing time nor does it prioritize his role over his teammates... Carney included who is enjoying an emergence in this style of play.