No MLE for the Sixers

[The Guilty Party]

There was a discussion a couple of days ago about whether or not the Sixers had the MLE or not. I can't locate the thread it was in so I'll just post the newest info here.

I said that I believed the Sixers did NOT have the MLE but someone else posted a comment by Stefanski in which he talked about using the MLE to possibly sign a shooter. I checked Larry Coon's FAQ and there was nothing about teams under the cap NOT having the MLE as well.

Well, Phil Jasner put this in his columntoday....

But, in any case, a perimeter shooter and/or an additional point guard might have to come at the veterans' minimum. And don't think about the possibility of the Sixers using the mid-level exception: They don't have one. By rule, a team can have money under the cap or the exception, but not both.

It's bad news but we're back to where I thought we were a couple of days ago. Oh well.

[bedjaw]

I believe and can't find clarification that they have to spend all of their cap room before their MLE kicks in. I think the rule is they can't use their MLE until they are over the cap.

[The Sixer Fixer]

Well this is what I see...

So it is not true that being under the cap necessarily means a team has room to sign free agents. For example, assume the cap is $49.5 million, and a team has $43 million committed to salaries. They also have a Mid-Level exception for $5 million and a Traded Player exception for $5.5 million. Even though their salaries put them $6.5 million under the cap, their exceptions are added to their salaries, putting them at $53.5 million, or $4 million over the cap. So they actually have no cap room to sign free agents, and must instead use their exceptions.

Teams have the option of renouncing their exceptions in order to claim the cap room. So in the example above, if the team renounced their Traded Player and Mid-Level exceptions, then the $10.5 million is taken off their team salary, which then totals $43 million, leaving them with $6.5 million of cap room which can then be used to sign free agent(s).

I take that to mean that we do have the exception, but it would first be added to our current team salary and thus actually reduce our actual cap room. So it may take our cap room dwon from 12 to 6 million if we elect to use it. If we want, we can renounce the exception and "free up" that money to retain our cap room of 12 million.

So in effect, I would think if we are going to hit a HR in FA we would have to renounce the exception.

This part makes it very clear...

There is logic behind this. The whole idea behind an "exception" is that it is an exception to the rule which says a team has to be below the salary cap. In other words, an exception is a mechanism which allows a team to function above the cap. If a team isn't over the cap, then the concept of an exception is moot. Therefore, if a team's team salary ever drops this far, its exceptions go away. The effect is that a team may have either exceptions or cap room, but they can't have both.

[dbodner]

I'm fairly certain you don't gain your MLE if you go over the cap after previously not having it. I don't have time to look it up in the CBA specifically, but I'm pretty sure that's the case.

[The Sixer Fixer]

I'm fairly certain you don't gain your MLE if you go over the cap after previously not having it. I don't have time to look it up in the CBA specifically, but I'm pretty sure that's the case.

No need to look it up, the above info clearly identifies that you would never get the exception AFTER you go over the cap. You would have had to already renounce the exception in order to use the 11-12 mil in cap room (in the Sixers example). Once you renounce it, you can't get it back.

[bedjaw]

I'm fairly certain you don't gain your MLE if you go over the cap after previously not having it. I don't have time to look it up in the CBA specifically, but I'm pretty sure that's the case.

I am 100% postive you do....here is a cut and paste directly from the CBA on the NBAPA webpage.

(1) A Team shall be entitled to use the Disabled Player, Bi-annual, Mid-Level Salary, and Assigned Player Exceptions set forth in Section 6(c), (d), (e) and (h) above, respectively, except as set forth in Section 6(h)(2) and (3) above, only if, at the time any such Exception would arise and at all times until it is used, the Team’s Team Salary, excluding the amount(s) of such Exception and any other Exception that would be included in Team Salary pursuant to Section 6(k)(2) below, is (i) at or above the Salary Cap, or (ii) below the Salary Cap by less than the amount(s) of the Team’s Exception(s).

This ends the discussion. Once they go over the Cap their MLE can be kicked in.

[The Guilty Party]

I always love the line "this ends the discussion" on a discussion board.

Also... I'm not seeing the language that states that a team GAINS an exception if it under the cap at the start of a new fiscal calendar and then goes over the cap during that same calendar year.

[sixers hoops]

I'm fairly certain you don't gain your MLE if you go over the cap after previously not having it. I don't have time to look it up in the CBA specifically, but I'm pretty sure that's the case.

I am 100% postive you do....here is a cut and paste directly from the CBA on the NBAPA webpage.

(1) A Team shall be entitled to use the Disabled Player, Bi-annual, Mid-Level Salary, and Assigned Player Exceptions set forth in Section 6(c), (d), (e) and (h) above, respectively, except as set forth in Section 6(h)(2) and (3) above, only if, at the time any such Exception would arise and at all times until it is used, the Team’s Team Salary, excluding the amount(s) of such Exception and any other Exception that would be included in Team Salary pursuant to Section 6(k)(2) below, is (i) at or above the Salary Cap, or (ii) below the Salary Cap by less than the amount(s) of the Team’s Exception(s).

This ends the discussion. Once they go over the Cap their MLE can be kicked in.

Now look at the next section:

(2) In the event that when a Disabled Player Exception, Bi-annual Exception, Mid-Level Salary Exception and/or Assigned Player Exception arises, the Team’s Team Salary is below the Salary Cap (or in the event that, prior to the expiration of any such Exceptions, the Team’s Team Salary falls below the Salary Cap) by less than the amount of such Exceptions, then (i) the Team’s Team Salary shall include, until the Exceptions are actually used or until the Team no longer is entitled to use the Exceptions, the amount of the Exceptions (or any unused portion of the Exceptions), and (ii) the amount by which the Team’s Team Salary is less than the Salary Cap shall thereby be extinguished. When the Disabled Player Exception is used to sign or acquire a player, the Replacement Player’s Salary for the first Season of his Contract, instead of the amount of the Exception, shall be included in Team Salary. When a Bi-annual Exception or Mid-Level Salary Exception is used to sign a player, or when an Assigned Player Exception is used to acquire a player, the Salary for the first Season of the signed or acquired Contract plus any then-unused portion of the Exception, instead of the full amount of the Exception, shall be included in Team Salary. A Team may at any time renounce its rights to use an Exception, in which case the Exception (or any unused portion of the Exception) will no longer be included in Team Salary.

[Gsraider]

There was a discussion a couple of days ago about whether or not the Sixers had the MLE or not. I can't locate the thread it was in so I'll just post the newest info here.

I said that I believed the Sixers did NOT have the MLE but someone else posted a comment by Stefanski in which he talked about using the MLE to possibly sign a shooter

I was the one who cut and pasted Stefanski's quote about also having the MLE to use. I cannot say I knew one way or the other, but in seeing Stefanski's quote, I figured he would be in the know as to what this team could spend or not spend. If the newest report is true, unless he simply mis-spoke, it's kind of disappointing that Stefanski doesn't know what he has or doesn't have to spend.

[bedjaw]

I'm fairly certain you don't gain your MLE if you go over the cap after previously not having it. I don't have time to look it up in the CBA specifically, but I'm pretty sure that's the case.

I am 100% postive you do....here is a cut and paste directly from the CBA on the NBAPA webpage.

(1) A Team shall be entitled to use the Disabled Player, Bi-annual, Mid-Level Salary, and Assigned Player Exceptions set forth in Section 6(c), (d), (e) and (h) above, respectively, except as set forth in Section 6(h)(2) and (3) above, only if, at the time any such Exception would arise and at all times until it is used, the Team’s Team Salary, excluding the amount(s) of such Exception and any other Exception that would be included in Team Salary pursuant to Section 6(k)(2) below, is (i) at or above the Salary Cap, or (ii) below the Salary Cap by less than the amount(s) of the Team’s Exception(s).

This ends the discussion. Once they go over the Cap their MLE can be kicked in.

Now look at the next section:

(2) In the event that when a Disabled Player Exception, Bi-annual Exception, Mid-Level Salary Exception and/or Assigned Player Exception arises, the Team’s Team Salary is below the Salary Cap (or in the event that, prior to the expiration of any such Exceptions, the Team’s Team Salary falls below the Salary Cap) by less than the amount of such Exceptions, then (i) the Team’s Team Salary shall include, until the Exceptions are actually used or until the Team no longer is entitled to use the Exceptions, the amount of the Exceptions (or any unused portion of the Exceptions), and (ii) the amount by which the Team’s Team Salary is less than the Salary Cap shall thereby be extinguished. When the Disabled Player Exception is used to sign or acquire a player, the Replacement Player’s Salary for the first Season of his Contract, instead of the amount of the Exception, shall be included in Team Salary. When a Bi-annual Exception or Mid-Level Salary Exception is used to sign a player, or when an Assigned Player Exception is used to acquire a player, the Salary for the first Season of the signed or acquired Contract plus any then-unused portion of the Exception, instead of the full amount of the Exception, shall be included in Team Salary. A Team may at any time renounce its rights to use an Exception, in which case the Exception (or any unused portion of the Exception) will no longer be included in Team Salary.

Seriously...there is no discussion. The next section pertains to only when a team exceeds the cap by amount less than the exception. Trust me and Ed Stefanski. They get to use their MLE if they go over the cap. I don't how this could get any clearer. Do you need a certified letter from Billy Hunter! They get to use their MLE!

[sixers hoops]

There is a discussion. That's what this is and that is what this forum is for. We are discussing Phil Jasner's report in the paper today that the sixers will not have a mid-level exception, which warrants a discussion. It is your option to participate or not.

[sixers hoops]

Do you need a certified letter from Billy Hunter! They get to use their MLE!

I would like to know where Jasner got his information from. Different people in each organization know the specifics of the CBA better than others. Billy King once agreed to deals with Korver and Willie Green that were longer than what was allowed in the CBA. He once traded a player who wasn't eligible to be traded. GM's do not know everything about the CBA, so it depends who interpreted the information. Ed could have been misunderstood or made a mistake, so I do not consider it fact at this point.

Maybe Phil was wrong, maybe his source was wrong, or maybe he source was correct. There not enough information to make that determination at this point.

[sixers hoops]

http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#20

This is from Larry Coon's FAQ, which he interprets the CBA.

From item #20:
The Disabled Player, Bi-Annual, Mid-Level and Traded Player exceptions may be lost entirely, or the team may never receive them to begin with. This happens when their team salary is so low that when the exceptions are added to the team salary, the sum is still below the salary cap. If the team salary is below this level when the exception arises, then the team doesn't get the exception. If the team salary ever drops below this level during the year, then any exceptions they had are lost.

For example, with a $49.5 million salary cap, assume it's the offseason, and a team has $41 million committed to salaries, along with a Mid-Level exception for $5 million, a Traded Player exception for $2.5 million, and an unrenounced free agent whose free agent amount is $2 million. Their salaries and exceptions total $50.5 million, or $1 million over the cap. What if their free agent signs with another team? The $2 million free agent amount comes off their cap, so their team salary drops to $48.5 million. This total is below the cap so the team loses its Mid-Level and Traded Player exceptions.

There is logic behind this. The whole idea behind an "exception" is that it is an exception to the rule which says a team has to be below the salary cap. In other words, an exception is a mechanism which allows a team to function above the cap. If a team isn't over the cap, then the concept of an exception is moot. Therefore, if a team's team salary ever drops this far, its exceptions go away. The effect is that a team may have either exceptions or cap room, but they can't have both.

Maybe I am reading it wrong or maybe Larry Coon interprets it wrong, but this seems to say that you can't have both. Just another view.

[The Sixer Fixer]

How can anyone actually interpret that offical CBA language. There's like 50 sub reference back to other places in CBA for every tiny piece of info they give. If this, than this, but only if this and when this happens in these 5 scenarios except when this and this happen, then this...

That's enough to make your head spin.

Since they referecne (and link to) the Larry Coon translation right on the NBAPA site, I tend to trust that. In that, he clearly states that you can not have both. If you want the exceptions, they will eat into your cap space. If you want your full cap space, then you have to renounce one or more exception in order to get it. In that case, you DO NOT get the luxury of getting them back once you exceed the cap. Seriously, think about that, why would you have to renounce them if you can get them back later? Makes no sense. Why not say you always have them and you can use them whenever. There has to be a penalty for renouncing them and choosing to get your full cap space.

The funny thing about how the rule works is that there is almost no benefit to being like 9 million under the cap (by 9 mil) vs. being over the cap. The only benefit (and I guess it's big) is you can't combine exceptions so team that are over the cap can only make a run at players who want no more than the MLE, while teams that are under the cap by 9 mil can make a run at players who want more than the MLE. At the end of the day though, both teams have the same total amount of "cap room" to offer to FA's.

[sixers hoops]

How can anyone actually interpret that offical CBA language. There's like 50 sub reference back to other places in CBA for every tiny piece of info they give. If this, than this, but only if this and when this happens in these 5 scenarios except when this and this happen, then this...

That's enough to make your head spin.

It is very confusing, which is why GM's have lawyers interpret the information. Again, I don't know that Eddie or Jasner broke down the offical CBA themselves, so it really depends where they got their information. In addition, I haven't seen or heard Ed's comment, which could have been misinterpreted or misunderstood by posters here.

[bebopdeluxe]

Why can't the Sixers - in this order - 1) use their cap room to sign Josh Smith; 2) resign Iggy and LWill and 3) sign someone with the midlevel?

Huh?

[The Sixer Fixer]

Why can't the Sixers - in this order - 1) use their cap room to sign Josh Smith; 2) resign Iggy and LWill and 3) sign someone with the midlevel?

Huh?

If the Larry Coon FAQ is right, they can do 1 and 2, but #3 would not be an option because in order to accomplish 1 and 2, then would have had to forfeit the rights to 3.

[sixers hoops]

Why can't the Sixers - in this order - 1) use their cap room to sign Josh Smith; 2) resign Iggy and LWill and 3) sign someone with the midlevel?

Huh?

Well, they are going to use there 11 million prior to signing Lou Will or Iggy. Because if they signed either Lou Will or Iggy for more than the current caphold number that is used to count them against the cap, then the sixers would have less to spend on a free agent. Therefore, that 11 or 12 million number is based on spending that money before signing Lou Will or Iggy.

The third part of the plan is what this thread is about. If you have 30 million in caproom, do you really have 35 million? You spend your 30 million then the league still gives you the mid-level. According to Jasner's article today, teams under the cap more than their exceptions do not get the mid-level, so that part of your plan wouldn't work.

There appears to be conflicting information, but the point of the mid-level is to allow capped out teams to still sign players. Until I get convincing confirmation otherwise, I am going to assume that we do not have the mid-level.

[jbodle]

i just sent an email to phil jasner and he reiterated that they do not have the MLE and that you either have cap space or the mle but not both. He also asked me where the stefanski quote was on using the mle was and i can't find it so if someone could post a link to the quote or the podcast where he made the quote that would be great although i suspect maybe he referred to the vet minimum as opposed to the mle? Phil jasner was pretty adamant that no mle this year.

[The Guilty Party]

Seriously...there is no discussion. The next section pertains to only when a team exceeds the cap by amount less than the exception. Trust me and Ed Stefanski. They get to use their MLE if they go over the cap. I don't how this could get any clearer. Do you need a certified letter from Billy Hunter! They get to use their MLE!

Why so hostile?

Does anyone (GsRaider) have a link to the Stefanski quote about the Sixers using the MLE? I think GsRaider had it before and I forget what thread we talked about this in. I mean, everything seems to be pointing to the Sixers having to renounce the MLE in order to have the $11MIL in cap space with exception to a quote from Stefanski that we need to read and also bedjaw's proclamation that he is the all and powerful Oz who knows the CBA like no other including Larry Coon.