Sixers sign guard Royal Ivey

[Phillyboy]

How the hell does a thread about signing Royal Ivey spin off into a PG fight?

We really need something to talk about.

To all the Miller bashers- You gentlemen either have short memories or you cherish the individual performance over team accomplishments.

Point 1- Allow me to refresh your memories. Less than two years ago this team, mired in a downward spiral was sinking toward permanent lottery status. We had some little guy hogging the ball and another pechulant PF faking injury so he could pout publically. None of our younger guys were developing anywhere near the rate they should, attendance was a disgrace. Dysfunctional would be an understatement. I've been a Sixers fan since they created the franchise (and a Warriors fan before that) and this particular team was one the most disappointing and frustating teams in my memory.

Then, as if a great revelation finally occured, BK traded some guy, bought out the other and completely changed the face of this team. Let me also remind you that the general consensus was that, after trading some guy, we would now slip into an NBA version of an "ice age". (How could we trade our little bastard superstar for who? Joe Smith, a couple of picks and God forbid Andre Miller?)

But against the allknowing wisdom of some on this board this team actually started to improve almost overnight As if a surgeon had removed a cancerous growth the team would quickly embark on a rapid recovery. All the sudden it became a team game (as it should be), the ball being distributed, young players starting to develop, the team creating a new identity, this young team surprising the league night in and night out.

They won a number of great games against great teams (games they would have lost miserably in the old configuration). They became one of the most talked about teams and established themselves as a team that a star player would actually want to play on. (See the great Elton Brand. Forget cap for a second. Do you really think Brand would have wanted to play here with what's his name?)

The credit for all this goes to TEAM. The credit for team goes to Andre Miller. He's the facilitator who has made this all happen. He's the guy who has changed the face of this team more than anyone. It would be difficult to name another player of his caliber in any sport that had such an immediate and profoundly positive impact on the sinking ship he was traded to.

Point 2- There are indeed more individually talented PGs in this league. So what? Championships are won by TEAMS not INDIVIDUALS. A championship team is a perfect blend of talent, execution, chemistry and a little luck. In our configuration we have a very good assemblence of talent, all seem to be quality individuals worthy of a little luck, that leaves the execution. And for this team at this time there is none better than Miller. He's unselfish, highly experienced, a pinpoint passer and floor general and he's an extension of his coach on the floor. If and when he leaves this team he will leave it much better than he found it.

Oh and he's 10M expiring. Why would any of you want to move him now? If you're going to trade him (and that's only if we're ready to move on) you trade him at the deadline when his return value would be at it's highest.

OK there's my rant. Again, I hope we get something to talk about soon.

[Dedicated_76ers_fan]

How the hell does a thread about signing Royal Ivey spin off into a PG fight?

We really need something to talk about.

To all the Miller bashers- You gentlemen either have short memories or you cherish the individual performance over team accomplishments.

Let me take the time to state, Phillyboy that you are an excellent poster and a wise man that I will always take the time to read his posts. And that I acknowledge, as you do the significance of what Andre Miller brought to the table.

Point 1- Allow me to refresh your memories. Less than two years ago this team, mired in a downward spiral was sinking toward permanent lottery status. We had some little guy hogging the ball and another pechulant PF faking injury so he could pout publically. None of our younger guys were developing anywhere near the rate they should, attendance was a disgrace. Dysfunctional would be an understatement. I've been a Sixers fan since they created the franchise (and a Warriors fan before that) and this particular team was one the most disappointing and frustating teams in my memory.

Then, as if a great revelation finally occured, BK traded some guy, bought out the other and completely changed the face of this team. Let me also remind you that the general consensus was that, after trading some guy, we would now slip into an NBA version of an "ice age". (How could we trade our little bastard superstar for who? Joe Smith, a couple of picks and God forbid Andre Miller?)

We were headed towards the lottery with or without him in the lineup. With a PG in Andre Miller and a solid PF in Joe Smith, we were bound to be better. But yeah. I thought we were a lottery team. I'll confess.

But against the allknowing wisdom of some on this board this team actually started to improve almost overnight As if a surgeon had removed a cancerous growth the team would quickly embark on a rapid recovery. All the sudden it became a team game (as it should be), the ball being distributed, young players starting to develop, the team creating a new identity, this young team surprising the league night in and night out.

They won a number of great games against great teams (games they would have lost miserably in the old configuration). They became one of the most talked about teams and established themselves as a team that a star player would actually want to play on. (See the great Elton Brand. Forget cap for a second. Do you really think Brand would have wanted to play here with what's his name?)

I actually do. Now, we wouldn't have developed as a team with Iverson. But AI is a hell of a player. Gotta give him that.

The credit for all this goes to TEAM. The credit for team goes to Andre Miller. He's the facilitator who has made this all happen. He's the guy who has changed the face of this team more than anyone. It would be difficult to name another player of his caliber in any sport that had such an immediate and profoundly positive impact on the sinking ship he was traded to.

Word. I can't think of a PG other then Jason Kidd who has had the level of impact that he has. CP3?

Point 2- There are indeed more individually talented PGs in this league. So what? Championships are won by TEAMS not INDIVIDUALS. A championship team is a perfect blend of talent, execution, chemistry and a little luck. In our configuration we have a very good assemblence of talent, all seem to be quality individuals worthy of a little luck, that leaves the execution. And for this team at this time there is none better than Miller. He's unselfish, highly experienced, a pinpoint passer and floor general and he's an extension of his coach on the floor. If and when he leaves this team he will leave it much better than he found it.

We'll need at least 2 3pt shooters and Mo Williams is a very good PG who happens to fill the 3pt shooting need.

Oh and he's 10M expiring. Why would any of you want to move him now? If you're going to trade him (and that's only if we're ready to move on) you trade him at the deadline when his return value would be at it's highest.

Not every GM is like Chris Wallace. The Grizzlies had a lucky ass draft day, but that doesn't mean the return value for Gasol was origionally next to crap.

OK there's my rant. Again, I hope we get something to talk about soon.

[Phillyboy]

Thanks for the props Dedicated. I read your posts and respect your point of view as well.

Obviously I'm an old schooler. I really like what I've seen from this team since the trade and I'm in basketball heaven with the Sixers bringing in my favorite player and perfect fit at the PF.

This will be a great year. Go Sixers.

[ChuckS]

Phillyboy;

I am reluctant to post this because I fear hurting your image by agreeing so strongly. I accept that I am a little too "old school" for modern tastes.

But what an awesome post!

I think it evidences a profound understanding of the game...at least as I learned it. I particularly liked the individual talent versus team analysis.

Did I say "awesome"?

[Dedicated_76ers_fan]

This definately will be a great year and I am more then content with the roster as it's currently presented. But I think our chances will be bettered if for example we were able to land a Chanucey Billups.

[Hawks]

Ivey is your emergency backup PG/defensive wannabe stopper. He may surprise you with a 10 point game and add in a Josh Smith type of line as well. Do not expect much from him.

[76erinSJ]

No I dont think Miller would make a 3 if given 10 chances. All of the shot is from his wrist. He gets no lift from his jump or elbow thats why his shot is so flat and will not go in for 3. Now dont get me wrong I love Miller and hope he stays this year and signs a 2-3 year extension. When he made AI miss on that pumpfake that was my favorite play of the season and he was my fav from last year.

I hate Mo Williams. He sucks. He is a bad PG on a horrible team. If Mo is so good why was the Bucks looking for a starting PG this offseason? Sessions is the better PG of the 2. The only reason I like Mo is because he is younger and can make the 3. If Miller was even considered bad 25-30 % from 3 we wouldnt need to look for a 3pt shooter as bad. But with him being 9% we have to look for 3 pt shooters off the bench.

[Dedicated_76ers_fan]

You say that as though Sessions is also a bad PG. Throughout the last several games, he shown quick growth and development. And here in this system, Mo Williams will thrive.

Just run the floor, pass the ball, don't turn it over and shoot the 3. I mean, I'm not asking for much with our favorite 6'10 forward in our starting lineup.

[joelberrocal215]

damn 8 pages about Royal Ivey

[Dedicated_76ers_fan]

Not neccessarily about Ivey in of himself but you're right. It's just the excitement that Philly fans have for the first time since the 00-01 campaign where that little man all by himself led us to the finals.

I think this is a signifcantly better team then that 00-01 team. And I think this eastern conference is similar in level of talent, only 2 teams, maybe 3 tops have quality basketball play in them.

[HMFFL]

Ivey improved a lot last year. he was dreadful in atlanta in 06-07 but he showed great offense last year with Milwaukee...i like this signing.

I don't think I would go as far to say he was dreadful with the Hawks. Coach Woodson would only play him seven minutes and it was normally the start of the game. He didn't get the chance he needed, but he didn't turn the ball over, and he was fairly decent on defense. I'm glad he's getting another chance.

[jmon]

No I dont think Miller would make a 3 if given 10 chances.

In practice? You can't mean practice... please say you don't mean practice.

[sec-106]

Four pages on Royal Ivey. We really need something to talk about.

And now it's at eight.

[bebopdeluxe]

Late to the thread (on vaca in LBI)...

1) I'm OK with the Ivey signing...we only have 9 guys under contract, he's making the vets minimum, and since we had at least two guys on the 15 man roster who weren't NBA players (Amundson and Shav), Ivey is an upgrade;

2) Freshie2...actually, AI is easily a PG that deserves to be on that list - we can't help it that George Karl was too stupid to play him there (and to Phillyboy...while that was a great post, we will just have to agree to disagree on Iverson - his transformation in Denver last season has changed my current opinion on him, even though the trade had to be made and Miller has had a very positive impact on this team;

3) As much as I like Miller, I have to agree with carltong23 as far as looking to upgrade Miller if possible - especially if Iggy is resigned. We need a PG who is some kind of shooting threat, which Miller - for all of his wonderful qualities - is simply not. I would trade him right now for Hinrich in a heartbeat. Not so sure about Williams...I really do not know his game that well. And I think I have mentioned my dream scenario for next summer (and Phillyboy's nightmare)...

AI for the MLE



Now...if we had Michael Redd at SG (6 for 8 from 3 in the USA exhibition against Canada, BTW), then I would feel differently about keeping Miller. But given the team's current/projected construction (and given how Miller tired in the Detroit series - something that I am sure that Stefanski saw as well), I am very open to other options at PG other than Miller (like Hinrich).

[bebopdeluxe]

Late to the thread (on vaca in LBI)...

1) I'm OK with the Ivey signing...we only have 9 guys under contract, he's making the vets minimum, and since we had at least two guys on the 15 man roster who weren't NBA players (Amundson and Shav), Ivey is an upgrade;

2) Freshie2...actually, AI is easily a PG that deserves to be on that list - we can't help it that George Karl was too stupid to play him there (and to Phillyboy...while that was a great post, we will just have to agree to disagree on Iverson - his transformation in Denver last season has changed my current opinion on him, even though the trade had to be made and Miller has had a very positive impact on this team;

3) As much as I like Miller, I have to agree with carltong23 as far as looking to upgrade Miller if possible - especially if Iggy is resigned. We need a PG who is some kind of shooting threat, which Miller - for all of his wonderful qualities - is simply not. I would trade him right now for Hinrich in a heartbeat. Not so sure about Williams...I really do not know his game that well. And I think I have mentioned my dream scenario for next summer (and Phillyboy's nightmare)...

AI for the MLE



Now...if we had Michael Redd at SG (6 for 8 from 3 in the USA exhibition against Canada, BTW), then I would feel differently about keeping Miller. But given the team's current/projected construction (and given how Miller tired in the Detroit series - something that I am sure that Stefanski saw as well), I am very open to other options at PG other than Miller (like Hinrich).

[Phillyboy]

ChuckS- Thanks for your kind words.

Bebop- Welcome back from vacation and yes sir we'll need to agree to disagree on that guy you mentioned. Doesn't mean we're not friends because we are.

It's my opinon that by next season Lou Williams will be ready to start at the 1 for us. He's not the pure PG that Miller is (he's still in training) but a solid passing and scoring combo guard and he could play that position for years to come. This would be my long term Plan A and I would give it every chance to work before I look outside the team and commit more resources.

I really like this team as is. Unless a S+T for Igoudala that really upgrades this team presents itself I believe the prudent thing to do is to sign our two RFAs and proceed into the season. Under the rigors of an NBA schedule identify holes and fill them at the deadline for the stretch run.

Oh yeah, Royal Ivey. Almost forgot what this thread was supposed to be about.

[psykosacul]

No I dont think Miller would make a 3 if given 10 chances.

In practice? You can't mean practice... please say you don't mean practice.

some people have no clue about how good nba players really are.

[psykosacul]

It's my opinon that by next season Lou Williams will be ready to start at the 1 for us. He's not the pure PG that Miller is (he's still in training) but a solid passing and scoring combo guard and he could play that position for years to come. This would be my long term Plan A and I would give it every chance to work before I look outside the team and commit more resources.

I really like this team as is. Unless a S+T for Igoudala that really upgrades this team presents itself I believe the prudent thing to do is to sign our two RFAs and proceed into the season. Under the rigors of an NBA schedule identify holes and fill them at the deadline for the stretch run.

my long term plan A would be to sign resign miller for three seasons after this one. granted the deal would have to be reasonable, but with brand on board i think its important that we have a vet. pg to lead the team. lou is not a "natural" pg. as a fellow anti-iverson-ite, im sure you can relate to that sentiment. its true, miller will be getting old as the years go on, but we can have lou take more minutes at the 1 as that happens. but i think its important that we retain miller as long as he is a functional basketball player. he is 32/33 this season. so in 3 years he would be 35/36 in the last year of his deal. i think thats completely reasonable considering he looks better now than sam cassell did three years ago.

there was talk that miller talked to brand about joining the sixers. to me, that suggests that its not just the west coast that was keeping miller from committing... it was the fact that we didnt have a powerful team. now with brand, i think miller would resign with us if we do well this year. and id be glad to give him a year or two more than id like to in order to retain a "contending" roster. (which im assuming we can be)

- and remember. 1. he is almost guarenteed to get less than the 9 mill/year he makes now so that releives the cap a bit... and 2. now that we are over the cap, we have the mle. so even after signing miller we would be able to play the market for a shooter next year. (though i dont think there are many available)

[dond]

Not neccessarily about Ivey in of himself but you're right. It's just the excitement that Philly fans have for the first time since the 00-01 campaign where that little man all by himself led us to the finals.

You know ... it is probably time to acknowledge that .... though AI played a key role in the 00-01 run to the finals... it was far from him doing it by himself. The Sixers had a hall-of-fame coach controlling him (as best he could), they had Lynch and Hill and Mutombo defending at a high level and hauling down rebounds and scoring on offensive putbacks ... Eric Snow kept things under control and played strong defense. All AI had to do was knock a decent number of the 50 shots per game he was taking. AI got the headlines but he was far from a one man show.

[geiger]

He was as close to a one man show as it gets. You just named a bunch of guys who were back-up players and LB is in the Hall of Fame in large part because of Iverson. As for having a pure PG - which teams in the last 20 years had pure PGs who couldn't shoot the rock running the point? It wasn't the Lakers, or the Heat, or the Spurs or the Bulls. Arguably, it wasn't the Pistons either in their lone championship and Celtics did it with a kid who wasn't ready yet because they had 3 all-stars on that roster. You need star players and guys who can get their own shots and score at will and they need to be surrounded by defensive minded role players. Your PG can be a guy who pressures the ball, hits a few open jumpers, and strokes the 3, but he doesn't have to be the guy who dishes 10 assists a game or who controls the ball 50% of the time. Best pure passing PGs in the league - guys like John Stockton and Steve Nash never won jack sh*t and this isn't the NBA of the 1960's. And please, don't compare Miller with guys like Chris Paul or Deron Williams, who aren't only pure PGs but guys who can play defense, which Miller doesn't do, and can hit the 3, which Miller can't do, and who can take over the games offensively. Miller will be 33 years old this season. It's insane to offer him a 3 year extension. He is coming off a career season last year. He's a 13 to 14 point, 7 assist a game PG who can't shoot or defend, and who will start declining. Who was the last PG who had those attributes and played at the top of his game past his 35th birthday?