Is Giggs one of the most overrated players in history?

[ardee]

When people talk about the best PL players, the first players that come to my mind are Henry, Bergkamp, Shearer, Ronaldo and Cantona.

People start talking about Giggs, but I never understood why he belongs in there. He was never even once the best player in the league. Hell I don't think he was ever the best player on a title-winning United team. First it was Beckham's team, then Scholes, then RvN, and then Ronaldo.

Is he rated so highly just because he's been around for so long? Longevity with no real impressive peak?

[5DOM]

I think it goes Cantona-Keane-(RVN)-Ronaldo-Rooney & Vidic, but yeah, Giggs and Scholes have been getting a lot of love lately mostly for their longevity. Both are obviously incredible, but Giggs especially has never been the best.

[Slava]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBSZ5nOKOAo[/youtube]

Beckham was never once better than Giggs.

[Baphomet]

Firstly, it was Giggs' team long before it was ever Beckham's team. Beckham was still on loan at Preston and hadn't broken into the United first team when Giggs was bagging 10+ goals per season and acting as a key creative cog in a multiple title winning United side - as a teenager, I'll add. From that point onwards though, I suppose Giggs was never the most heralded player at the club, but I'd wager that his importance to the team's success equalled, and sometimes surpassed that of the other players you mentioned (with perhaps the exception of Ronaldo).

Like you implied, what was so good about Giggs was that he did what he did over such a long period of time. I watched a ton of United in the 90s because my older brother is a United fan, and the main thing I took away from those matches was just how consistent Giggs was. When other players struggled, he would seemingly step up his game and get the engine running again. It's my opinion that he deserves every bit of acclaim he receives.

[Slava]

He was physically way before his time as a winger and his consistency only dropped for a few seasons in the mid 00s when he suffered those hamstring injuries. He won the PFA players' player of the year in 2008-09 when Ronaldo, Rio, Rooney & Vidic were at their peaks in the same team and he consistently gave double digit assists season after season without fail.

[ardee]

I think it goes Cantona-Keane-(RVN)-Ronaldo-Rooney & Vidic, but yeah, Giggs and Scholes have been getting a lot of love lately mostly for their longevity. Both are obviously incredible, but Giggs especially has never been the best.

Scholes IMO is actually underrated. Peak Scholes, circa 2003ish, was a 20 goal player from attacking midfield and doubled up as the best passer in the league and arguably the world. He absolutely merits the plaudits he gets.

[Point forward]

I like Giggsy, but the one thing I hold against him is his inability / unwillingness to get anywhere with the Welsh NT, despite having solid help like Hartson, Speed, Bellamy, Saunders etc. With a comparable talent level around him, Senderos and Ibra regularly get Switzerland and Sweden into the EC or WC. Solskjaer, Keane and Yorke (!) had some WC/EC participation with Norway, Ireland and Trinidad/Tobago, and with MUCH less help, Zahovic took Slovenia to the EC, Dzeko shot BIH into the WC, even Verpakovskis (remember that guy?) drove Latvia into the EC. And don't get me started what that Zagorakis guy did with Greece.

[5DOM]

He was physically way before his time as a winger and his consistency only dropped for a few seasons in the mid 00s when he suffered those hamstring injuries. He won the PFA players' player of the year in 2008-09 when Ronaldo, Rio, Rooney & Vidic were at their peaks in the same team and he consistently gave double digit assists season after season without fail.

I think that PFA player of the year award was a farce tbh. Does anyone actually believe Giggs was the best player in that season? Ronaldo, Vidic, van der Sar and Gerrard were all clearly better players IMO.

I think it goes Cantona-Keane-(RVN)-Ronaldo-Rooney & Vidic, but yeah, Giggs and Scholes have been getting a lot of love lately mostly for their longevity. Both are obviously incredible, but Giggs especially has never been the best.

Scholes IMO is actually underrated. Peak Scholes, circa 2003ish, was a 20 goal player from attacking midfield and doubled up as the best passer in the league and arguably the world. He absolutely merits the plaudits he gets.

That 20 goal season was an anomaly. His vision and passing were definitely among the best in the world (and most likely the best), but IMO other parts of his game were not as good as other great midfielders' in that era. In PL alone, Keane and Vieira were the more influential midfielders though their roles did differ greatly from Scholes' who played further up. IMO he was never the player of his own team himself, so much of your criticism of Giggs apply here too. I just feel that he'd been kind of forgotten for years but now resurfaced mainly due to three reasons: 1) England NT's failures after failures without him (although there is no guarantee they would have done any better with him considering he used to get criticized for poor England form whenever he did play whether it was because of being used the wrong way or he simply lost the drive) 2) appreciation of his skillset that matches the in-style modern/Spanish football rather than the unpopular traditional English values 3) his incredible longevity. There have been lots of debates on who the best player between Gerrard, Scholes and Lampard was recently - or more accurately Gerrard and Scholes because most agree Lampard is behind the two of them - and I think if the poll was conducted just a few years ago, Gerrard would have run away with it.

I like Giggsy, but the one thing I hold against him is his inability / unwillingness to get anywhere with the Welsh NT, despite having solid help like Hartson, Speed, Bellamy, Saunders etc. With a comparable talent level around him, Senderos and Ibra regularly get Switzerland and Sweden into the EC or WC. Solskjaer, Keane and Yorke (!) had some WC/EC participation with Norway, Ireland and Trinidad/Tobago, and with MUCH less help, Zahovic took Slovenia to the EC, Dzeko shot BIH into the WC, even Verpakovskis (remember that guy?) drove Latvia into the EC. And don't get me started what that Zagorakis guy did with Greece.

I don't know how much of the Welsh NT's lack of success should be on him, but from what I've heard, he'd never replicated his United form there, and of course decided to focus on his club career near the end of his career. Bellamy is more appreciated there apparently.

[Slava]

He was physically way before his time as a winger and his consistency only dropped for a few seasons in the mid 00s when he suffered those hamstring injuries. He won the PFA players' player of the year in 2008-09 when Ronaldo, Rio, Rooney & Vidic were at their peaks in the same team and he consistently gave double digit assists season after season without fail.

I think that PFA player of the year award was a farce tbh. Does anyone actually believe Giggs was the best player in that season? Ronaldo, Vidic, van der Sar and Gerrard were all clearly better players IMO.

Not when its voted for by the players, it shows how highly respected he was by his peers and to be fair he was amazing in that season, even started at CM for a majority of the CL winning campaign.

[Slava]

That 20 goal season was an anomaly. His vision and passing were definitely among the best in the world (and most likely the best), but IMO other parts of his game were not as good as other great midfielders' in that era. In PL alone, Keane and Vieira were the more influential midfielders though their roles did differ greatly from Scholes' who played further up. IMO he was never the player of his own team himself, so much of your criticism of Giggs apply here too. I just feel that he'd been kind of forgotten for years but now resurfaced mainly due to three reasons: 1) England NT's failures after failures without him (although there is no guarantee they would have done any better with him considering he used to get criticized for poor England form whenever he did play whether it was because of being used the wrong way or he simply lost the drive) 2) appreciation of his skillset that matches the in-style modern/Spanish football rather than the unpopular traditional English values 3) his incredible longevity. There have been lots of debates on who the best player between Gerrard, Scholes and Lampard was recently - or more accurately Gerrard and Scholes because most agree Lampard is behind the two of them - and I think if the poll was conducted just a few years ago, Gerrard would have run away with it.

I doubt you'd find many Arsenal fans who'd put Vieira ahead of Scholes as a player, let alone United fans doing the same with Keane.

[5DOM]

He was physically way before his time as a winger and his consistency only dropped for a few seasons in the mid 00s when he suffered those hamstring injuries. He won the PFA players' player of the year in 2008-09 when Ronaldo, Rio, Rooney & Vidic were at their peaks in the same team and he consistently gave double digit assists season after season without fail.

I think that PFA player of the year award was a farce tbh. Does anyone actually believe Giggs was the best player in that season? Ronaldo, Vidic, van der Sar and Gerrard were all clearly better players IMO.

Not when its voted for by the players, it shows how highly respected he was by his peers and to be fair he was amazing in that season, even started at CM for a majority of the CL winning campaign.

He's obviously highly respected by his peers. He'd played for almost 20 seasons even then. I think that played a major role in him winning the award, and of course, Ronaldo has never been very popular among players even after winning the same award in previous 2 years. Remember this is the award that Gareth Bale won for two great games against Inter. Let me ask you this, do you believe Giggs was better than Ronaldo that season?

I doubt you'd find many Arsenal fans who'd put Vieira ahead of Scholes as a player, let alone United fans doing the same with Keane.

Arsenal:
http://arsenal-mania.com/forum/viewtopi ... 3&t=323497
Think that's the biggest Arsenal board. All I can find on that subject.

United:
http://www.redcafe.net/threads/redcafes ... me.360104/
Oh there's plenty, and this is considering Keane's popularity these days (or lack thereof compared to Scholes) and a much shorter United career.

Btw Keane won the PFA award unlike Scholes and both Keane and Vieira were voted to the PFA team of the season 4 more times than Scholes, not that it means much like I said

[Slava]

He's obviously highly respected by his peers. He'd played for almost 20 seasons even then. I think that played a major role in him winning the award, and of course, Ronaldo has never been very popular among players even after winning the same award in previous 2 years. Remember this is the award that Gareth Bale won for two great games against Inter. Let me ask you this, do you believe Giggs was better than Ronaldo that season?

His legacy obviously played a huge part in that award and I'm not sure when that is voted for but Ronaldo missed games with knee surgery early that season, so that needs to be considered as well. Giggs still came out with 7 goals and 14 assists that season, which is pretty good for a CM. He also started and played well in the big fixtures that season, which is important as he made no more than 15 league starts and 32 appearances in total.

If you look at the history of the award, its not something silly.

Past Winners:

Bale
Bale
RvP
Rooney
Giggs
Ronaldo
Ronaldo
Gerrard
Terry
Henry
Henry

You could not disagree with any of those except Bale's first.

Arsenal:
http://arsenal-mania.com/forum/viewtopi ... 3&t=323497
Think that's the biggest Arsenal board. All I can find on that subject.

United:
http://www.redcafe.net/threads/redcafes ... me.360104/
Oh there's plenty, and this is considering Keane's popularity these days (or lack thereof compared to Scholes) and a much shorter United career.

Btw Keane won the PFA award unlike Scholes and both Keane and Vieira were voted to the PFA team of the season 4 more times than Scholes, not that it means much like I said

8/10 people on the redcafe poll include Scholes in the 3-5 range and consistently higher than Keane. The Arsenal forum is strange because most comments think he's a very ordinary player, who cannot tackle being the main argument.

If you want to compare him with Keane and Vieira, in the premier league 10 seasons awards, Keane did not even make the starting X1, voted by PFA players, LMA managers and FA executives.

Schmeichel

Neville - Adams - Desailly - Irwin
Beckham - Scholes - Vieira - Giggs
Shearer - Cantona

[5DOM]

8/10 people on the redcafe poll include Scholes in the 3-5 range and consistently higher than Keane. The Arsenal forum is strange because most comments think he's a very ordinary player, who cannot tackle being the main argument.

Again I am talking only about the period between late Cantona and early Ronaldo eras. Scholes obviously has the edge over Keane in all-time United players ranking due to longevity and popularity. I think it speaks volumes about Keane's impact when there are people who rank him above Scholes, and most of the people who ranked Scholes higher placed Keane just below him.

You could not disagree with any of those except Bale's first.

And Giggs'

If you want to compare him with Keane and Vieira, in the premier league 10 seasons awards, Keane did not even make the starting X1, voted by PFA players, LMA managers and FA executives.

Schmeichel

Neville - Adams - Desailly - Irwin
Beckham - Scholes - Vieira - Giggs
Shearer - Cantona

Roy Keane's exclusion was questioned even then because his individual accolades were superior to Scholes', and many felt he was simply the better player at the time. Scholes never won the player of the year awards like Keane did, and he was never voted to the team of the year whereas Keane was 5 times. One explanation may be that Vieira beat out Keane for the one all-around midfielder position.

And of course fans voted which probably didn't help Keane.

[Yorkex]

Nothing beats consistency , if every game he has played was to be rated out f 10 for performance , his average will be around 7.5-8.
Not an alltime best but , he add value to a team. James Harden or Wesbrook type of player , with the consistency of Lebron or Jordan

[Mirjalovic]

I dont know, but when i started to follow Soccer in mid 90ers, Giggs already really famous, and his popularity increasing after MU won treble in 99 or so.

at that time, Giggs always seen better than Beckham, even Kevin Keegan once joked about why the hell he didnt call Giggs for Euro 2000 when Keegan saw Giggs was the best Brits player at that time.

in 2002, there are speculation if Giggs was the best player who never play in the World Cup, yes, above big names like Di Stefano, Cantona, Weah etc.

its not because his longevity, but because his skills. For me hes better than Bale.. Giggs was a speedster, had deadly crossing (but inferior compared to Becks), his passing & court vision is good, can take fks/penalties, had nice and soft dribbling. Later part in his career he can transformed into a central midfielder, which is a very difficult transformation for a pacey winger, but he can do it.

tldr hes not overrated.