2017-18 Spanish La Liga Discussion Thread

[jirrit]

Our reign is over....

'08, '12 and '17 championships ain't that much of a Spain-reign

[Rust_Cohle]

I was actually going to quote bump it but then I realised I and1'd it

It’s been a strange and extraordinary decline. I still feel the same way about Barcelona though. They have not been very good. But they are fortunate in that no one in Europe is very good this season. And they will improve with Coutinho, obviously.

Agreed. Barca haven't even needed to be especially great this season, all that's asked of them is to win the games they should be winning, something Real have failed miserably at.

Any ideas what the key causes are? Ronaldo's poor league form is obviously a major problem. Defensively they have looked very vulnerable, when they drew 2-2 with Celta they could have shipped 4 or 5.

Both of you are REALLY underrating what Barcelona have done this season. Think about what the expectations were for Barca over the summer, after losing Neymar and the board being on the verge of being replaced and Messi not signing a new contract and look at them now. It's halfway through January they are UNDEFEATED in all competitions since the season began. That is insane.

To simply say they are fortunate that "no one is good in Europe this season" is ridiculous. We have teams like City on a record breaking pace in EPL, Barca have the second or third highest number of points at this point of the season in their history. Just because Madrid has fallen off a cliff doesn't mean no one is good in Europe anymore. La Liga is also the most competitive it has been from the second spot onward. Valencia look legit and despite Barca being undefeated Atletico have been on a great streak even if they were a let down in CL this year.

And it's not always easy to "win matches you should be winning" Barca hadn't won at Real Sociedad's stadium in ten years and had an amazing come from behind victory to have 4 straight goals. Their come from behind victory at that particular stadium is the first time it has happened for Barca after being down in 88 years. Pep always struggled there during his time with Barca.

People just refuse to give Barca any credit despite the fact that this was supposed to be the worst Barca team of the decade heading into this season and things looked grim after the supercup. Paulinho was an amazing signing, Iniesta is having his best season in a while, Jordi Alba might be the best LB in the world based on current form and Ter Stegen is a worst case top 2 GK. Sergi Roberto is an absolute gem and even players like Vermaleen who used to be made fun of have been making immense contributions when called upon. This Barca team has FAR more depth than the 2016 or 2017 teams of Enrique's last two seasons. Valverde has done a fantastic job this season and is easily the most underrated manager in Europe right now. And the scary thing is, Barca can still play much better, they have room for improvement.

With the best Man City side we have ever seen, the best PSG side in ages, the best Liverpool since the Suarez days, and Bayern playing much better since the coaching change I completely disagree Barca is fortunate there no good teams in Europe. I'd argue CL will be far more competitive this season than it has since maybe 2014.

Barca is the #1 defensive side in all of Europe. Yes, they have made mistakes here or there, Umtiti was out for over a month and he's one of the best CB's in the world but the fact that they actually have a right flank that isn't a dumpster fire like it was last season is massive. Semedo was a great signing, Yery Mina is one of the most promising prospects from South America, and Paulinho has to be the most pleasant surprise of the year. Dembele is still working his way in and he will take some time, and Coutinho was a shrewd signing. They had th ebest January transfer window in their history. Despite being undefeated they still want to improve.

People want to discredit Barca so far but NOBODY and I mean NOBODY would have them undefeated this far along into the season. I don't think this team is better than any of Pep's teams or the 2015 team but they were definitely much better and much more balanced than the 2016 or 2017 teams. The teams plays much more cohesively since Neymar left and Valverde has them playing with a great fighting spirit. They actually play with using the midfield as an asset as oppose to bypassing them altogether like Enrique had them do. There are at least 3-4 games so far this season Barca definitely would've lost last year under Enrique. Especially today's match which was one of their most impressive wins of the season. Messi should have another Ballon D'or by the end of the year at this current rate.

[baldur]

It’s been a strange and extraordinary decline. I still feel the same way about Barcelona though. They have not been very good. But they are fortunate in that no one in Europe is very good this season. And they will improve with Coutinho, obviously.

Agreed. Barca haven't even needed to be especially great this season, all that's asked of them is to win the games they should be winning, something Real have failed miserably at.

Any ideas what the key causes are? Ronaldo's poor league form is obviously a major problem. Defensively they have looked very vulnerable, when they drew 2-2 with Celta they could have shipped 4 or 5.

Both of you are REALLY underrating what Barcelona have done this season. Think about what the expectations were for Barca over the summer, after losing Neymar and the board being on the verge of being replaced and Messi not signing a new contract and look at them now. It's halfway through January they are UNDEFEATED in all competitions since the season began. That is insane.

To simply say they are fortunate that "no one is good in Europe this season" is ridiculous. We have teams like City on a record breaking pace in EPL, Barca have the second or third highest number of points at this point of the season in their history. Just because Madrid has fallen off a cliff doesn't mean no one is good in Europe anymore. La Liga is also the most competitive it has been from the second spot onward. Valencia look legit and despite Barca being undefeated Atletico have been on a great streak even if they were a let down in CL this year.

And it's not always easy to "win matches you should be winning" Barca hadn't won at Real Sociedad's stadium in ten years and had an amazing come from behind victory to have 4 straight goals. Their come from behind victory at that particular stadium is the first time it has happened for Barca after being down in 88 years. Pep always struggled there during his time with Barca.

People just refuse to give Barca any credit despite the fact that this was supposed to be the worst Barca team of the decade heading into this season and things looked grim after the supercup. Paulinho was an amazing signing, Iniesta is having his best season in a while, Jordi Alba might be the best LB in the world based on current form and Ter Stegen is a worst case top 2 GK. Sergi Roberto is an absolute gem and even players like Vermaleen who used to be made fun of have been making immense contributions when called upon. This Barca team has FAR more depth than the 2016 or 2017 teams of Enrique's last two seasons. Valverde has done a fantastic job this season and is easily the most underrated manager in Europe right now. And the scary thing is, Barca can still play much better, they have room for improvement.

With the best Man City side we have ever seen, the best PSG side in ages, the best Liverpool since the Suarez days, and Bayern playing much better since the coaching change I completely disagree Barca is fortunate there no good teams in Europe. I'd argue CL will be far more competitive this season than it has since maybe 2014.

Barca is the #1 defensive side in all of Europe. Yes, they have made mistakes here or there, Umtiti was out for over a month and he's one of the best CB's in the world but the fact that they actually have a right flank that isn't a dumpster fire like it was last season is massive. Semedo was a great signing, Yery Mina is one of the most promising prospects from South America, and Paulinho has to be the most pleasant surprise of the year. Dembele is still working his way in and he will take some time, and Coutinho was a shrewd signing. They had th ebest January transfer window in their history. Despite being undefeated they still want to improve.

People want to discredit Barca so far but NOBODY and I mean NOBODY would have them undefeated this far along into the season. I don't think this team is better than any of Pep's teams or the 2015 team but they were definitely much better and much more balanced than the 2016 or 2017 teams. The teams plays much more cohesively since Neymar left and Valverde has them playing with a great fighting spirit. They actually play with using the midfield as an asset as oppose to bypassing them altogether like Enrique had them do. There are at least 3-4 games so far this season Barca definitely would've lost last year under Enrique. Especially today's match which was one of their most impressive wins of the season. Messi should have another Ballon D'or by the end of the year at this current rate.

Excellent post.

[Baphomet]

A couple things, I don't think anybody would dispute that Barcelona have had an excellent January window. Coutinho is one thing, but I briefly discussed with J-Mezzy in the transfer thread what an exceptional deal 12m euros for a talent like Yerry Mina is.

From the 10-12 or so times I've watched Barca this season (mostly in the CL), they've been effective, but I couldn't escape the impression that there's another gear that they could yet shift into, even without Neymar. Maybe that's just a result of being spoiled by how immense Barcelona have been over the last decade or so. The results have been great, I think a lot of that can be attributed to having a good coach in Valverde rather than Enrique. I didn't intend it as an insult to what Barcelona have achieved, but going into this season establishing a modicum of stability under a new coach (and political turmoil) must have been the goal, and that begins with bringing it back to basics, calling upon squad depth, cutting out sloppiness and simply winning football matches you would expect Barcelona to win. Even without Neymar, I don't think Barca's attacking prowess was ever in doubt.

I have to disagree that La Liga is as competitive as it's ever been though. Sure, Valencia have improved a lot but most of the teams are doing as they've always done. It appears more competitive because Real have been pulled back into the pack. Leganes playing well is a cool story, we'll see if they can keep it up.

With Coutinho, I think Barcelona might even be favourites to win the CL, along with City. Not necessarily because I believe other superpowers in Europe have declined or stagnated per se, but simply because he's an ideal fit. The boy excels in all the qualities you'd look for in a Barcelona midfielder.

Oh, and Harry Kane's going to win this year's ballon d'Or, don't get any ideas.

[Rust_Cohle]

A couple things, I don't think anybody would dispute that Barcelona have had an excellent January window. Coutinho is one thing, but I briefly discussed with J-Mezzy in the transfer thread what an exceptional deal 12m euros for a talent like Yerry Mina is.

From the 10-12 or so times I've watched Barca this season (mostly in the CL), they've been effective, but I couldn't escape the impression that there's another gear that they could yet shift into, even without Neymar. Maybe that's just a result of being spoiled by how immense Barcelona have been over the last decade or so. The results have been great, I think a lot of that can be attributed to having a good coach in Valverde rather than Enrique. I didn't intend it as an insult to what Barcelona have achieved, but going into this season establishing a modicum of stability under a new coach (and political turmoil) must have been the goal, and that begins with bringing it back to basics, calling upon squad depth, cutting out sloppiness and simply winning football matches you would expect Barcelona to win. Even without Neymar, I don't think Barca's attacking prowess was ever in doubt.

I have to disagree that La Liga is as competitive as it's ever been though. Sure, Valencia have improved a lot but most of the teams are doing as they've always done. It appears more competitive because Real have been pulled back into the pack. Leganes playing well is a cool story, we'll see if they can keep it up.

With Coutinho, I think Barcelona might even be favourites to win the CL, along with City. Not necessarily because I believe other superpowers in Europe have declined or stagnated per se, but simply because he's an ideal fit. The boy excels in all the qualities you'd look for in a Barcelona midfielder.

Oh, and Harry Kane's going to win this year's ballon d'Or, don't get any ideas.

My apologies if my post came off as defensive, I didn't mean for that. If most of the Barca matches you've seen were from CL then I can't blame you at all for feeling about them how you do because outside of the first Juventus match, they have been unconvincing in CL with "Own Goal" being just as important as Messi Shame Coutinho is cup tied, so he can't play in CL. But on the upside he can give Iniesta rest in La Liga and then Barca have a fresh Iniesta for CL.

I also think the first month or two in La Liga Barca were winning but it wasn't always pretty. I think the 4-4-2 made them extra defensive as they were lacking wingers with the Dembele injury and Delefou just doesn't cut it. I do think the past 6 weeks or so they have kicked things up a notch. While Barca seems more comfortable than ever with the 4-4-2 (whereas Zidane is too stubborn to get Madrid to change from playing 4-4-2 in my opinion) I do think Valverde would like them to play a 4-3-3 once Dembele gets comfortable.

I know Madrid aren't in the best form, but humiliating them at the Bernabeu was impressive. Valverde is much more pragmatic than Enrique and this Barca team tends to take it easy in the first half and then kick it up a notch in the second half whereas Madrid seem to go in the opposite direction (if first halves only counted then Madrid would be at the top of the table).

As a matter of fact if you look at second half stats on the season for goals scored/goals conceded between Barca and Madrid you have:

Real Madrid: 9-11. Barcelona 35-4.

But there is still a long way to go, I hope Barca can at least make the semi-finals of CL and I would love to see a matchup between them and Man City. I think City can be exposed from the back but their midfield and depth is fantastic.


And Kane has been incredible this past year, he deserves a top 3 nomination for the award at the very least. I've also been very impressed with Son lately. You guys have a great team.

[Next Coming]

Nonce league

[Baphomet]

My apologies if my post came off as defensive, I didn't mean for that. If most of the Barca matches you've seen were from CL then I can't blame you at all for feeling about them how you do because outside of the first Juventus match, they have been unconvincing in CL with "Own Goal" being just as important as Messi

I also think the first month or two in La Liga Barca were winning but it wasn't always pretty. I think the 4-4-2 made them extra defensive as they were lacking wingers with the Dembele injury and Delefou just doesn't cut it. I do think the past 6 weeks or so they have kicked things up a notch. While Barca seems more comfortable than ever with the 4-4-2 (whereas Zidane is too stubborn to get Madrid to change from playing 4-4-2 in my opinion) I do think Valverde would like them to play a 4-3-3 once Dembele gets comfortable.

I know Madrid aren't in the best form, but humiliating them at the Bernabeu was impressive. Valverde is much more pragmatic than Enrique and this Barca team tends to take it easy in the first half and then kick it up a notch in the second half whereas Madrid seem to go in the opposite direction (if first halves only counted then Madrid would be at the top of the table).

As a matter of fact if you look at second half stats on the season for goals scored/goals conceded between Barca and Madrid you have:

Real Madrid: 9-11. Barcelona 35-4.

But there is still a long way to go, I hope Barca can at least make the semi-finals of CL and I would love to see a matchup between them and Man City. I think City can be exposed from the back but their midfield and depth is fantastic.


And Kane has been incredible this past year, he deserves a top 3 nomination for the award at the very least. I've also been very impressed with Son lately. You guys have a great team.

No worries at all, no need to apologise. I enjoy the debate, and defer to your knowledge on Barca as you watch them more than I do.

You touched upon precisely why I like Valverde. He's a pragmatist and good tactical coach, I believe he will try to get the best out of everyone and show more tactical flexibility when required. A problem, if you can even call it that, I've had with Barca is that sometimes they were a touch predictable in the last couple years, you knew exactly how they'd line up and how they would approach the game. Of course, using that to your advantage is far easier said than done, but it lead to some undoings in the CL post-2015.

Kane would either have to win the CL with Spurs or World Cup with England to have a legitimate shot. And... well, that's probably not happening. But hope springs eternal. He's the best player I've ever seen at Spurs and I'm grateful for every match I get to see him play.

Shame Coutinho is cup tied, so he can't play in CL. But on the upside he can give Iniesta rest in La Liga and then Barca have a fresh Iniesta for CL.

This completely slipped my mind for some reason... that's a bummer. But my point stands for future Champions League campaigns, I really like Coutinho's fit and I think the transfer is best for all parties involved. Liverpool can move on and reinvest the fee because they still have a ton of fantastic attacking quality, Coutinho gets his dream move, and Barca get a premier talent.

[Ted Lasso]

Much of what was said in response is well beside the point Baph and I made. No one is denying that Barcelona are getting results, those speak for themselves. But are they playing up to the standard that they and Real Madrid have established in the past 7-8 years? Absolutely not. Everybody can see that. They may very well be the best team in Europe but they are a straightforwardly vulnerable team.

[Riko]

Much of what was said in response is well beside the point Baph and I made. No one is denying that Barcelona are getting results, those speak for themselves. But are they playing up to the standard that they and Real Madrid have established in the past 7-8 years? Absolutely not. Everybody can see that. They may very well be the best team in Europe but they are a straightforwardly vulnerable team.

Vulnerable? Where?
This is one of the most effective Barca I ever see. Ten goals conceded in 25 games between UCL and Liga...
They play well? No, but when you have Suarez and Messi as striker the only thing that matter is not concede, then they will score and Barca will win the game...

[Ted Lasso]

Much of what was said in response is well beside the point Baph and I made. No one is denying that Barcelona are getting results, those speak for themselves. But are they playing up to the standard that they and Real Madrid have established in the past 7-8 years? Absolutely not. Everybody can see that. They may very well be the best team in Europe but they are a straightforwardly vulnerable team.

Vulnerable? Where?
This is one of the most effective Barca I ever see. Ten goals conceded in 25 games between UCL and Liga...
They play well? No, but when you have Suarez and Messi as striker the only thing that matter is not concede, then they will score and Barca will win the game...

If that's true, considering the precedent of effectiveness Barcelona has set, they will romp their way through to a CL title and you'll be proven right.

[jirrit]

Shame Coutinho is cup tied, so he can't play in CL. But on the upside he can give Iniesta rest in La Liga and then Barca have a fresh Iniesta for CL.

This completely slipped my mind for some reason... that's a bummer. But my point stands for future Champions League campaigns, I really like Coutinho's fit and I think the transfer is best for all parties involved. Liverpool can move on and reinvest the fee because they still have a ton of fantastic attacking quality, Coutinho gets his dream move, and Barca get a premier talent.

I always thought you could have one or two new additions to the CL squad, even when they played in the first part of the season. That knowledge goes back from my Football/Championship Manager times so I don't know if it's accurate anymore.

[Riko]

Much of what was said in response is well beside the point Baph and I made. No one is denying that Barcelona are getting results, those speak for themselves. But are they playing up to the standard that they and Real Madrid have established in the past 7-8 years? Absolutely not. Everybody can see that. They may very well be the best team in Europe but they are a straightforwardly vulnerable team.

Vulnerable? Where?
This is one of the most effective Barca I ever see. Ten goals conceded in 25 games between UCL and Liga...
They play well? No, but when you have Suarez and Messi as striker the only thing that matter is not concede, then they will score and Barca will win the game...

If that's true, considering the precedent of effectiveness Barcelona has set, they will romp their way through to a CL title and you'll be proven right.

The precedent Barcas were exciting, incredible, amazing almost glittering ( ) but effective? Nah. A lot of ball possession, shooting and scoring but always concede and from time to time they were beaten with just solid defense from a inferior team (Chelsea in 2012 for example).
BTW I'm not saying that this Barca will win the UCL for sure (to win the CL you need a lot of luck and favorable circumstance) but, right now, Barca is really solid like no other team in football.

[Rust_Cohle]

Much of what was said in response is well beside the point Baph and I made. No one is denying that Barcelona are getting results, those speak for themselves. But are they playing up to the standard that they and Real Madrid have established in the past 7-8 years? Absolutely not. Everybody can see that. They may very well be the best team in Europe but they are a straightforwardly vulnerable team.

Vulnerable? Where?
This is one of the most effective Barca I ever see. Ten goals conceded in 25 games between UCL and Liga...
They play well? No, but when you have Suarez and Messi as striker the only thing that matter is not concede, then they will score and Barca will win the game...

If that's true, considering the precedent of effectiveness Barcelona has set, they will romp their way through to a CL title and you'll be proven right.

Are you trying to compare this team to Pep's team? Because no team of the past 18 years was better than some of Pep's Barca teams. It's an impossible standard to hold them to. But are most likely better than the 2013, 2014, 2016, and 2017 teams? I'd definitely like to think so even though the season is just halfway through. They certainly defend significantly better than all those teams. I'd say they are absolute worst case top 2 in Europe right now.

CL is always a tricky tournament, one bad game and you could be out. They are on pace to win La Liga by a massive margin and no other Barca team have gone this undefeated for this long. The run will have to end sometime, but you are REALLY selling this Barca team short.

[Ted Lasso]

Vulnerable? Where?
This is one of the most effective Barca I ever see. Ten goals conceded in 25 games between UCL and Liga...
They play well? No, but when you have Suarez and Messi as striker the only thing that matter is not concede, then they will score and Barca will win the game...

If that's true, considering the precedent of effectiveness Barcelona has set, they will romp their way through to a CL title and you'll be proven right.

Are you trying to compare this team to Pep's team? Because no team of the past 18 years was better than some of Pep's Barca teams. It's an impossible standard to hold them to. But are most likely better than the 2013, 2014, 2016, and 2017 teams? I'd definitely like to think so even though the season is just halfway through. They certainly defend significantly better than all those teams. I'd say they are absolute worst case top 2 in Europe right now.

CL is always a tricky tournament, one bad game and you could be out. They are on pace to win La Liga by a massive margin and no other Barca team have gone this undefeated for this long. The run will have to end sometime, but you are REALLY selling this Barca team short.

Apparently, the Barca team that did a treble and won two CL titles in three seasons wasn't effective but this one is. And yet i'm the one holding them to Pep's standard? Definitely one of the more perplexing exchanges I've been a part of here.

[Rust_Cohle]

If that's true, considering the precedent of effectiveness Barcelona has set, they will romp their way through to a CL title and you'll be proven right.

Are you trying to compare this team to Pep's team? Because no team of the past 18 years was better than some of Pep's Barca teams. It's an impossible standard to hold them to. But are most likely better than the 2013, 2014, 2016, and 2017 teams? I'd definitely like to think so even though the season is just halfway through. They certainly defend significantly better than all those teams. I'd say they are absolute worst case top 2 in Europe right now.

CL is always a tricky tournament, one bad game and you could be out. They are on pace to win La Liga by a massive margin and no other Barca team have gone this undefeated for this long. The run will have to end sometime, but you are REALLY selling this Barca team short.

Apparently, the Barca team that did a treble and won two CL titles in three seasons wasn't effective but this one is. And yet i'm the one holding them to Pep's standard? Definitely one of the more perplexing exchanges I've been a part of here.

Assuming you were referring to Riko’s Post, time will tell how good this team is but I don’t think they’ll be as good as Pep’s team as no other team in recent history was.

I do stand by the fact that they are definitely better than the 2013, 2014, 2016, and 2017 teams. A treble from this group wouldn’t surprise me, but this will probably be the most competitive CL we have seen in many years. No true favourite this year. Barca is probably as good defensively as they have been since 2011. That should hopefully bode well for them moving forward. This is a damn good Barca team.