European Super League (Indefinitely Suspended)

[Rasho Brezec]

Just because something has been done a certain way for ages doesn't mean it's the right way.

Maybe the NBA should implement 2nd and 3rd divisions with promotions and relegations.

NBA as an organization is incredibly prone to changes and constantly develops new ideas. The complete opposite of UEFA. Maybe it has something to do with the team owners being on the board of governors - sort of like the Super League now.

[Raps in 4]

UEFA are giving them a chance. Limit the big teams from spending money? So the can flee and create a 'super-league' - like they are doing? The owners are greedy - and it wont end well.

A chance doesn't mean just being allowed to participate. It means actually being able to compete.

You are so wrong, and you have absolutely no idea how wrong you are.

The last time a mid market team won the CL (or was even in the finals) was Porto in 2004. I don't think I'm wrong at all. The current system is not set up to give small market teams a chance, unless your idea of having a chance is fighting over bread crumbs in a system designed to keep you under a boot.

[aggerrard]

They're not going to kick the "Big 6" out of the league lol. The Prem would face serious financial problems & likely not be able to function as a league without their support. That's not going to happen.

It's all posturing at this stage. The big clubs hold all the power.

That's the problem. You really don't see it? The Prem is facing serious financial problems no matter what. It will be the new FA Cup or Europa League. A secondary league to the giants. The interest will fall drastically - meaning a huge loss for the entire league system and the smaller team. For what? To create a 'super-league' with gready owners sucking every **** penny possible and leaving every other team and the entire integrity for dead.

Yep, still not in.

Yes, there will be sweeping changes to UEFA. But again, nothing really changes as far as the Prem is concerned.

And to expand on it.

As i stated, the Prem will the secondary to the 'super-league'. Liverpool are playing Barcelona wednesday in the 'super-league' - but they're playing Chelsea in the Prem saturday to fight for 3rd. There would be no reason what-so-ever to even care about the game vs Chelsea. The Prem would be relegated to a training competition. Nothing to play for anymore. Nothing. The product (Premier League) would get destroyed. West Ham at 10 would qualify for the CHL.

[Sedale Threatt]

I understand that this is a predominantly american forum and that you guys have a different view on sports in general, so if you don't understand why this is bad for football, I suggest reading this article: https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/apr/18/only-someone-who-truly-hates-football-can-be-behind-a-european-super-league

And listen to what legends have to say about this ****:

I agree(along with most of the footballing world) that UEFA and FIFA are corrupt scumbags, but this is just on another level.

I'm an American, and this sounds like a dreadful idea to me. If I'm running these domestic leagues, I'm doing everything I possibly can to get these teams removed. OK, you want to continue to hoard even more money for yourselves and in the process devalue one of the few things most of our teams have any hope of competing for in a Champions League berth? Great, then go be by yourselves completely. That obviously would be a huge, huge blow to those leagues. But it's also pretty hard to have much of a football season without a domestic league to play in. I also saw some suggestions that FIFA might consider banning any individual participants from playing in international competitions, which, at first glance, I wouldn't have any problem with. Again, this is just a naked, greedy cash grab so make them pay a price.

That said, I'm kind of laughing at some of the romanticization I'm reading about the meritocracy and competitive integrity of European soccer. To me, the almost complete lack of competition is one of my biggest complaints. Unless you can somehow pull a title out of your ass like Leicester or Blackburn, the overwhelming chunk of teams -- and their fan bases -- know they have zero chance of competing for championships. Somebody mentioned the Bundesliga earlier; they're kind of the poster child. Bayern is about to win their ninth straight title, and 30th overall while nobody else has more than five. Real and Barcelona have combined to win something like 60 of 90 La Liga titles; it gets even worse if you add Atletico's 10. No team not named Juventus, Inter or Milan has won a title in Italy in 20 years. And so on. England has more balance, but it's still almost totally dominated by a handful of clubs based entirely on their war chests.

So again, I think this is a terrible plan and hope it gets demolished. But let's at least be honest about where European soccer currently stands. This would just be the latest step in a process of stratification that's been underway for decades.

[aggerrard]

A chance doesn't mean just being allowed to participate. It means actually being able to compete.

You are so wrong, and you have absolutely no idea how wrong you are.

The last time a mid market team won the CL (or was even in the finals) was Porto in 2004. I don't think I'm wrong at all. The current system is not set up to give small market teams a chance, unless your idea of having a chance is fighting over bread crumbs in a system designed to keep you under a boot.

And you clearly didn't get it. I'm talking about the chance to participate. That's enough to keep it afloat.

[aggerrard]

You are so wrong, and you have absolutely no idea how wrong you are.

The last time a mid market team won the CL (or was even in the finals) was Porto in 2004. I don't think I'm wrong at all. The current system is not set up to give small market teams a chance, unless your idea of having a chance is fighting over bread crumbs in a system designed to keep you under a boot.

And you clearly didn't get it. I'm talking about the chance to participate. That's enough to keep it afloat.

Can it be better, absolutely. But this is taking it to another level. And it wont succeed.

[Mamba81p]

I hate UEFA/FIFA/FIBA. They are corrupt organizations that never cared about "greater good". They never took any serious action against racism, social issues. They don't care about fans/small clubs. They care about their bribes though, so if they bribes/votes come from the smaller clubs, then they will side with them.
It's disappointing that nobody was this upset when UEFA and FIFA ignored all the racial and social issues, in order to get what they want. That shows where every individual really stands when comes to social issues: they don't really care.

In an ideal situation you want to have relegation/promotion but that is bad for business(a super league with Real Madrid and Barcelona relegated would be a disaster) and at the end of the day that's what soccer is. Some people, for some reason, are still in denial over this. This is an entertainment business.
Premier League did the same thing when it was created. Yes, it has relegation/promotion because Man U and Liverpool are never really in jeopardy. It can happen, but in reality it never really does. You have to choose between parity and relegation and business side. You can have 2 out of 3, never all 3. Since we all know that the business part cannot go away(look at NCAA) you have to choose between parity and relegation. I would rather have the parity. Serie A, Ligue 1 and Bundesliga were notoriously boring in the last 10 years. You might get an interesting season in 10 years, and that's an awful product.
You want soccer the way it was meant to be more than a 100 years ago? create an amateur league, or watch one.

Everything that was done, especially since 1992 was done for money, and that in the end helped the quality of the product.
UEFA was incapable in the last years to make the product better, and now the clubs are taking the matter in their own hands. Euroleague proved that in basketball. Who watches Basketball Champions League?

I read a lot of opinions that the product will not be good, and boring. Well, if that was the case, why are you trying to fight it? Continue to play your Champions League and Europa League, and let the 12 clubs go bankrupt. Everyone fears that ESL will get all the money. They can get the money only if it's going to be a success, and that can only happen if we will get a better product. As consumers that's what we want right?

It's hypocritical of Sky sports to complain about this. They are all about money and greed.

[Inspektor1312]

A chance doesn't mean just being allowed to participate. It means actually being able to compete.

You are so wrong, and you have absolutely no idea how wrong you are.

The last time a mid market team won the CL (or was even in the finals) was Porto in 2004. I don't think I'm wrong at all. The current system is not set up to give small market teams a chance, unless your idea of having a chance is fighting over bread crumbs in a system designed to keep you under a boot.

I totally agree with you. The Champions League hasn't been a "fair" competition since they changed the format in '92 and allowed non-champions from the biggest leagues to play. It is what it is, we live in a capitalist world and money talks. But this is pushing it overboard.

Competitiveness isn't just about who will be the European champion. One of the main perks of being a national champion is that you will have an opportunity to compete on the biggest stage against the biggest clubs and best players. There are millions of fans across Europe who dream of their local team just playing in the CL against the greats, and this league would deny them that. We will probably never have another Porto winning it all, but denying them an opportunity to even try and compete is disgusting.

Here is a moment that will forever be in my memory: a small, once great team, gets an opportunity to play against one of the biggest clubs in the world, and beats them.

Watch on YouTube

I've always listened to my father's stories of the good old days, when our club would regularly play(and win) against Real, Arsenal, Inter, and other European elite, and fortunately I got to experience that. Do you know how much that means to the fans, to the young players that got to test themselves against the best?

My son won't have those memories if a league like this is formed, which is sad. And I'm not even mentioning the financial consequences for everyone except the chosen few.

[HIF]

Don't get me wrong. Winning the Prem is always top priority. But domestic cups are another thing entirely.

This move is huge financially for the club. Win/win imo.

And there is the difference between English born supporters and many non-english born supporters. If you asked the players they dreamt of winning an FA Cup (and representing their country).

As for the money, that'll depend on broadcasting rights. You'll lose out on CL money and prem money and you'll have to hope that TV keeps paying you after the first 3-5 year contract.

Lol the FA cup is nothing but a glorified consolation prize. I know that statement is gonna piss some off. But it's the truth.

It's a big deal for smaller clubs that don't necessarily get to compete for trophies. That's all it is.

As I said I understand why you don't get it and that is the root of why you are happy with a "superleague" and I'm not. We have different cultural traditions.

[HIF]

Don't really know what to say or think. I'm greatly against the proposal though. Relegations and promotions in a NATIONAL league system is deeply integrated in European football. Liverpool thrown out of the Premier League to play against other 'superteams' across Europe - talk about creating monopoly in the sport.

We already have the Champions League. The biggest annual sports tournament in the world. UEFA should listen to the demands. Play less games, have less tournaments. But come on, creating a superleague it not the answer. European Football is too big for that.

What's the big deal? This competition essentially replaces Champions League. Clubs still intend to play domestic competitions. UEFA just needs to bite the bullet and admit they're not the top dog anymore.

It really cannot just replace CL can it? Think logically man. In England they don't have every midweek free of matches and those "Big" teams are already complaining about playing too many matches in a season. They'll have to choose one or the other. Hopefully they'll just be thrown out of the leagues this week and then they can go and play their pointless round robin league.

[HIF]

Don't get me wrong. Winning the Prem is always top priority. But domestic cups are another thing entirely.

This move is huge financially for the club. This changes nothing as far as the Prem is concerned. UEFA is throwing a fit. But this is a win/win imo.

Yes it does? The Prem would be secondary to the 'super league' at best. And as for the Premier League organisation. They can't keep the same product with the 'big-6' still in the league. Who would qualify for the Champions League then? 7-11? In order to keep the product as it is, they can't have the 'big-6' in the league. With time other teams will be the new United and Liverpool, if this bullsh*t really proceeds.

It might give financial boost in the beginning, but i highly doubt a superleague can take down centuries of structured league football. And it will also just leave 15-20 teams in the 'super-league' on even terms, with transfer-fees rising and salary matching the improved finances. All this is just IF the idea actually gets the financial support they think they will.

They're not going to kick the "Big 6" out of the league lol. The Prem would face serious financial ramifications & likely not be able to function as a league without their support. That's not going to happen.

It's all posturing at this stage. The big clubs hold all the power.

You overestimate the big 6 and English football. The big clubs do hold the power but they've believed, like you, that the power is ultimate. You also underestimate English/European football supporters. Still at least they can play games in China and the US on alternate weeks.

[HIF]

Yes it does? The Prem would be secondary to the 'super league' at best. And as for the Premier League organisation. They can't keep the same product with the 'big-6' still in the league. Who would qualify for the Champions League then? 7-11? In order to keep the product as it is, they can't have the 'big-6' in the league. With time other teams will be the new United and Liverpool, if this bullsh*t really proceeds.

Other teams won't replace them in the new EPL. People only care about the top teams right now because they're rich enough to sign the top players. If the top players are all in the ESL, that's what everyone will be watching. No owner is going to spend money on an EPL team.

It might give financial boost in the beginning, but i highly doubt a superleague can take down centuries of structured league football. And it will also just leave 15-20 teams in the 'super-league' on even terms, with transfer-fees rising and salary matching the improved finances. All this is just IF the idea actually gets the financial support they think they will.

There is very little structure in the current system, hence why this current mess even exists. Something like this would never happen in an American sports league because they are actually tightly run ships with strict competitive rules.

You REALLY don't understand Europeans.

Everyone won't watch and the "big" teams will be replaced. I guess you've never heard of Newcastle and Sunderland crowds for example.

The league has fantastic structure. In England the structure includes thousands of clubs and grass roots training, not the 20 or so that American structures can manage.

[HIF]

What's the big deal? This competition essentially replaces Champions League. Clubs still intend to play domestic competitions. UEFA just needs to bite the bullet and admit they're not the top dog anymore.

Seriously?

This is against everything European Football is. Relagation and promotion, qualification for european cups etc. As i stated. This 'super-league' would create monopoly. It would ruin the entire league system - and obviously ruin the league products. All for one 'super-league'. Yep, **** that ****. I'm not in.

Who gets relegated and promoted from Champions League?

[HIF]

What's the big deal? This competition essentially replaces Champions League. Clubs still intend to play domestic competitions. UEFA just needs to bite the bullet and admit they're not the top dog anymore.

Seriously?

This is against everything European Football is. Relagation and promotion, qualification for european cups etc. As i stated. This 'super-league' would create monopoly. It would ruin the entire league system - and obviously ruin the league products. All for one 'super-league'. Yep, **** that ****. I'm not in.

When was the last time one of the big market teams got relegated? When was the last time a small market team won the CL?

The current system is a monopoly and has been for decades. Fans have just covered their eyes and pretended that wasn't the case.

No IDEA. You confuse the CL with domestic leagues.

Football has become THE world sport (yeah sorry Americans) because of it's tradition, equality and structure.

[Mamba81p]

Seriously?

This is against everything European Football is. Relagation and promotion, qualification for european cups etc. As i stated. This 'super-league' would create monopoly. It would ruin the entire league system - and obviously ruin the league products. All for one 'super-league'. Yep, **** that ****. I'm not in.

When was the last time one of the big market teams got relegated? When was the last time a small market team won the CL?

The current system is a monopoly and has been for decades. Fans have just covered their eyes and pretended that wasn't the case.

No IDEA. You confuse the CL with domestic leagues.

Football has become THE world sport (yeah sorry Americans) because of it's tradition, equality and structure.

or because it's simple and easy to understand.

[HIF]

Seriously?

This is against everything European Football is. Relagation and promotion, qualification for european cups etc. As i stated. This 'super-league' would create monopoly. It would ruin the entire league system - and obviously ruin the league products. All for one 'super-league'. Yep, **** that ****. I'm not in.

When was the last time one of the big market teams got relegated? When was the last time a small market team won the CL?

The current system is a monopoly and has been for decades.

Newcastle? If you consider them a "big market"?

Every team has been relegated from the top division of English football. Arsenal are said to be the only team because it was long, long ago.

The beauty of European football and English football in particular is that any team can rise from the non-leagues to the top and vice versa.

[HIF]

When was the last time one of the big market teams got relegated? When was the last time a small market team won the CL?

The current system is a monopoly and has been for decades. Fans have just covered their eyes and pretended that wasn't the case.

The current system gives small teams a chance. Doesn't matter if in England, Denmark, Romania, Slovenia, Slovakia, Serbia, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Holland, Belgium, Austria etc. Without the league system you don't have a product - and without the chances of smaller teams competiting with bigger teams, you lose the interest.

If UEFA really wanted to give those teams a chance, they'd limit how much money the big market clubs can spend, they'd have a regulated farm system that prevents top teams from poaching talent from smaller teams, etc. Instead, we have a playground for the rich right now, where ~15 teams monopolise all the talent in the world and the rest of the teams fight over table scraps.

You are an indoctrinated North American. That is not an insult just an observation.

[Mamba81p]

Yes it does? The Prem would be secondary to the 'super league' at best. And as for the Premier League organisation. They can't keep the same product with the 'big-6' still in the league. Who would qualify for the Champions League then? 7-11? In order to keep the product as it is, they can't have the 'big-6' in the league. With time other teams will be the new United and Liverpool, if this bullsh*t really proceeds.

Other teams won't replace them in the new EPL. People only care about the top teams right now because they're rich enough to sign the top players. If the top players are all in the ESL, that's what everyone will be watching. No owner is going to spend money on an EPL team.

It might give financial boost in the beginning, but i highly doubt a superleague can take down centuries of structured league football. And it will also just leave 15-20 teams in the 'super-league' on even terms, with transfer-fees rising and salary matching the improved finances. All this is just IF the idea actually gets the financial support they think they will.

There is very little structure in the current system, hence why this current mess even exists. Something like this would never happen in an American sports league because they are actually tightly run ships with strict competitive rules.

You REALLY don't understand Europeans.

Everyone won't watch and the "big" teams will be replaced. I guess you've never heard of Newcastle and Sunderland crowds for example.

The league has fantastic structure. In England the structure includes thousands of clubs and grass roots training, not the 20 or so that American structures can manage.

Then why the outrage? If nobody is going to watch it, they will go bankrupt, and the CL will go forward without them.
Sunderland are in the 3rd league, and one of the reasons is because they are in poor, blue collar area. Economics rule. You cannot have a sustainable club in a poor area without financial backing from a billionaire.

[HIF]

Other teams won't replace them in the new EPL. People only care about the top teams right now because they're rich enough to sign the top players. If the top players are all in the ESL, that's what everyone will be watching. No owner is going to spend money on an EPL team.



There is very little structure in the current system, hence why this current mess even exists. Something like this would never happen in an American sports league because they are actually tightly run ships with strict competitive rules.

European football is not comparable to any american sports league. Different culture, differrent structure. American 'soccer' fans might want this idea of football being this small elite, eliminating every small team creating their own little league. Like the NBA and the NFL. And while it might work in USA - it wont work in Europe.

But that's the opposite of what American sports stand for. It doesn't matter if you're the fan of the Thunder or the Lakers. Both teams have to play by the same rules. The Lakers can't just outspend the Thunder. When Prokhorov bought the Nets, he couldn't just use his money to win a championship immediately like Abramovich did with Chelsea.

In a league like MLB where uncontrolled spending is allowed, there are still competitive balances in places to keep things fair. Small market teams are allowed to draft and hoard young talent in a farm system (who they can keep on controllable, team-friendly contracts). You also have revenue sharing to help keep the small teams afloat.

Do you really believe that? Strange how lakers have lots of titles and others have none. The NBA is starting to kill itself now with the rigging of teams to win titles. It'll be interesting to see it's state of play in 50 years.

[HIF]

I will be honest with you.

I am not totally against a European Super League. FIFA/UEFA are a bunch of corrupt scumbags that have destroyed the game for years now. They deserve to be stabbed in the back.

However, I am totally against including Super League teams in the domestic leagues.
Cant be rewarded for considering yourself better than the traditional promotion/relegation and qualifiying for European competition systems.
What does clubs like Arsenal even qualify to be in this? They cant even reach top 6 in EPL.

They‘ll be getting hundreds of millions of Super League money and then also cashing in on the majority of domestic tv money. That is insane and absurd.

Let them form their own Super League but in the meantime quickly get rid of them in the domestic leagues.

Doesn‘t matter whether Bayern or Dortmund are going to the Super League.
Bundesliga is and will always be the league I will follow the most. Inequality of the competition levels in the domestic leagues is already way too much...cant accept to see this inequality rise even further.

My thoughts too.