Official Euro 2008 Grp. B - CRO, GER, POL, AUS

Post #61 » by **BlackMamba** » Mon Jun 9, 2008 1:27 pm

well, it's complicated, but in the end it doesn't matter where you were born, where you grew, the culture you learned and lived in, in the end is what the legal paper tells you what you are.

in recent years mexico has had a lot of players getting the mexican nationality so they wouldn't count as foreign players for teams, there have even been several nationalized players called to the national team and they have been in mexico not more that 10 years.

fc_dinamo · Post #62 » by **fc_dinamo** » Mon Jun 9, 2008 6:23 pm

Sleepy,

They're Polish. They were born in Poland, they grew up speaking Polish, their family is Polish. Their family's history is with Poland not Germany. To me, that is a lot more meaningful than a piece of paper that says they're German citizens.

I'm Romanian but I grew up in the USA. If I was a good basketball player and team USA offered me a chance to play, I'd refuse and would rather play for Romania, who much like the the Polish soccer team, will never find themselves as a favorites in any tournament. To me, it's a slap in the face to your heritage to turn your back on them, especially when your own parents played for that national team.

Club? Lol dude, totally different. Who feels guilty and doesn't celebrate when scoring FOR COUNTRY!!! Country vs club is totally different.

That you say Germany had a bad run between 1998-2006 only proves my point. They were in the quarter finals, finals and semis in those WCs. By German standards that's not a successful campaign but by Polish standards that would have been the most successful run in team history. That is a daunting choice isn't it - choosing a country who would dream of one day playing in a finals or a country who considers it a disappointment when they DON'T WIN the whole damn thing.

Like I said, no punishment for Germany. Doesn't make them less of a team for having Poles. But I just don't think it's right - to grow up in a culture and then join another team, just because that team happens to be the most successful team ever.

And please, don't insult yourself by saying you have no idea what culture is. If you honestly can't distinguish between German culture and Polish (or any other culture for that matter) then you didn't get your money's worth in school. But I doubt that's the point.

It's just a slap in the face to Poland that Podolski, and especially Klose turned their backs on them only because Germany is so successful.

If I was wrong, then Podolski would have celebrated as wildly as any player that scores FOR THEIR COUNTRY is.

Post #63 » by **Sleepy** » Mon Jun 9, 2008 8:04 pm

fc_dinamo wrote:Sleepy,

They're Polish. They were born in Poland, they grew up speaking Polish, their family is Polish. Their family's history is with Poland not Germany. To me, that is a lot more meaningful than a piece of paper that says they're German citizens.

Yes, they are culturally linked to Poland. So what? Does that mean that wearing Lederhosen and eating Bratwurst is a perquisite to play for the german team? Again: culture isn't the same as nationality; and it's by no means important to this question. Players don't play for the country the feel culturally linked to, so this whole argument doesn't come across.

I'm Romanian but I grew up in the USA. If I was a good basketball player and team USA offered me a chance to play, I'd refuse and would rather play for Romania, who much like the the Polish soccer team, will never find themselves as a favorites in any tournament. To me, it's a slap in the face to your heritage to turn your back on them, especially when your own parents played for that national team.

And it wouldn't be "a slap in the face" of the country that you choose to live in, that you grew up in, that gave you the chance to achieve... see, works both ways.

Club? Lol dude, totally different. Who feels guilty and doesn't celebrate when scoring FOR COUNTRY!!! Country vs club is totally different.

I've no idea what you just said... I just want to point out that it's totally fine if he doesn't celebrate against Poland, and I'm quite sure he won't celebrate if he scores against Cologne, where Podolski spent his youth, where he played 3 years and where he's still a big star. Emotional links... that's what it's all about.

That you say Germany had a bad run between 1998-2006 only proves my point. They were in the quarter finals, finals and semis in those WCs. By German standards that's not a successful campaign but by Polish standards that would have been the most successful run in team history. That is a daunting choice isn't it - choosing a country who would dream of one day playing in a finals or a country who considers it a disappointment when they DON'T WIN the whole damn thing.

OK, first of all... Poland had a damn successful stint in the 1970s, there're by no means crap by European standard. Next thing: I don't see what you're trying to prove. That players ruthlessly decide which country they play for by calculating their chances to win a big tournament? Are you serious? This decision has to be made in their childhood. As soon as you play ONE game for country A, you're no longer eligible for any other country. Most this players start by playing at the U17 tournaments for their countries. You're really trying to tell me that a 16 year old kid cunningly plans his whole career for a tournament that they 'could' play in 10 years later? Really? That's your point?
Ok, then what about this... the 18 years old Poldolski just signed his first contract with Cologne. It was pretty obvious that they were getting relegated this year and he'd be playing in the second division for the next year(s). Second Division players usually don't get nominated for the nat.squad of Germany, so would it have been a wiser choice to opt for Poland where he would become a star for sure?
Players may be a ruthless, cunning, money hungry pack, but calculating your international career at the age of 16, when you not even got a professional contract? Come on..

Like I said, no punishment for Germany. Doesn't make them less of a team for having Poles. But I just don't think it's right - to grow up in a culture and then join another team, just because that team happens to be the most successful team ever.

That did pretty much wrap it up. Culture IS NOT THE SAME as nationality. It's no criteria in modern sports! Oliver Kahn likes to eat Sushi... should he play for Japan?

And please, don't insult yourself by saying you have no idea what culture is. If you honestly can't distinguish between German culture and Polish (or any other culture for that matter) then you didn't get your money's worth in school. But I doubt that's the point.

No... the point is that culture is no point here. Players don't get picked by their culture, but by their nationality. That's all.

It's just a slap in the face to Poland that Podolski, and especially Klose turned their backs on them only because Germany is so successful.

Ugh...

If I was wrong, then Podolski would have celebrated as wildly as any player that scores FOR THEIR COUNTRY is.

Again, you're mixing up cultural links and national affiliation. Nobody argues that Podolski and especially Klose feel linked to their place of birth and that playing against Poland is a very special game for them. That's not up for debatte. The question is what you can deduce from that...
I say nothing. It doesn't change their status in the german team, it doesn't change that their nationality is german.
You seem to argue that these facts somehow make them no longer real members of the squad, but that they should play for Poland instead. And all I can answer here is that cultural traits and heritage are no criterias for a soccer player. Period.

Post #64 » by **Shaazzam** » Mon Jun 9, 2008 8:17 pm

Man, it sure is a good thing that Roger Guerreiro got his Polish Citizenship in time to play in this tourney.

Point forward · Post #65 » by **Point forward** » Mon Jun 9, 2008 11:20 pm

One of the better strikers in recent Polish history carries that extremely Polish name Emmanuel Olisadebe. Look how Slavic he looks, complete with blonde hair and bright eyes:

Get over it. Turkey snatched Mehmet Aurelio away from Brazil and Colin Kazim from the UK. Austria claimed Umit and Ozcan from Turkey, Gercaliu from Albania and Garics from Hungary. Switzerland pried away Behrami from Albania and Djourou from Cote d'Iviore. Holland and France are full of African and Surinamese players anyway.

fc_dinamo · Post #66 » by **fc_dinamo** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:27 am

I'm saying that...you can have affection for a former club. But another country? I don't see how that's possible. Look how the Dutch players celebrated...

I just think it was low what they did. If they're fine with it whatever...either way, whatever it's their choice. I wonder though, what if it they were Italian immigrants (hint hint: 2nd most successful European team)...still play for Germany? IDK...

Post #67 » by **BlackMamba** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 1:20 pm

well, we could agree or not in what motivates a player to choose what nationality or even consider getting the nationality, but in the end it's the law that has the final word.

wilt · Post #68 » by **wilt** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 3:43 pm

fc_dinamo wrote:I'm saying that...you can have affection for a former club. But another country? I don't see how that's possible. Look how the Dutch players celebrated...

I do see how that

WHAT_DA · Post #69 » by **WHAT_DA** » Wed Jun 11, 2008 5:11 pm

wilt wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

I do see how that